Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

[FollowtheShepherd]

I never said the law was bad, it is good, in fact its perfect, when taken in context. It has been leading people to God and has been doing that for 4000 some years.

Well I don't think the law leads people to God, I think His Spirit does, I think the law shows people in black and white hoe He wants us to behave.

Why does sin cause death? What is the curse? The law brings a curse to anyone who does not fulfill it, thats why paul said anyone who is under law is under a cursed, because cursed is the one who does not obey every word.

No the law does not bring a curse. Disobedience brings a curse. Thats like saying a hammer laying on a table will hammer a nail in, no a workman had to use/misuse that hammer.

Deuteronomy 28:15-16, " 15 “But if you will not obey the voice of the LORD your God or be careful to do all his commandments and his statutes that I command you today, then all these curses shall come upon you and overtake you. 16 Cursed shall you be in the city, and cursed shall you be in the field.

I think making the law a curse theology is calling God's righteous ways a curse.

No sin brings curses and eventually death. Some sins are sins unto death some are not. Sins not unto death can still bring curses even from the natural order of creation.

1 John 5:17, "All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not unto death."

That would be on me I am focused on life and blessing

God is the live giver, but Psalms and Jesus both seem to think obedience to God's commands matter in this equation:

Psalms 119:92-94, " 92 If your law had not been my delight, I would have perished in my affliction. 93 I will never forget your precepts, for by them you have given me life. 94 I am yours; save me, for I have sought your precepts."

Revelation 22:14-15, " 14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."

Jesus told us how.. the law of love, and the spirit and life.

Yes, and how did the ones who obeyed carry out that obedience?

Jesus gave you the answer,, love.

Yes I agree on this 100% Jesus gave us example, we will not alywa live up to it every time but none the less He gave us example of how to walk.

TO your question, John said this;

1 John 5:2-3, " 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous."

We know we love when we keeep God's commands. SO any other love devod of this is false love. Jesus showed us the way to walk in this love.

Yes, one sin your done

Moses he got that from moses, when he said cursed is the one who does not confirm every word of this law by doing them

And if there was a question, paul repeated that in Galatians three

The law is not our guide, it is our condemnation

Love and being christlike is our guide,

But there is sin unto death and sin not unto death, however all sins need mercy, without mercy it's a guilty verdict every time. So the ansewr is not throw out the law, the anser is be guided by the spirit;

Hebrews 10:16-17, " 16 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Ezekiel 36:26-27, " 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them].

John 8:51 “Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone guards My Word he shall never see death at all.”

Jesus didn't toss out God's law He showed how to walk in it...

Matthew 22:37-40, " 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

 

[FollowtheShepherd]

Well of course

It is more blessed to give than receive, when we are not loving we are taking, when we are loving we are obedient, and blessed.

Indeed, and I really like this passage, very clear and shows both sides;

John 14:23-24, " 23 Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me."

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I doubt I ever said anything about learning obedience but frankly there is no doubt that you could learn about it from the law.

What I always say is this: the law is good for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction. (2nd Timothy 3)

It`s scripture and when you disagree with me on this you disagree with the Bible.

How can we learn obedience from a law that was only given to condemn and lead people to the messiah?

Jesus said how. By loving god, and our neighbor.

the law can not tell you who to do this, only show you how you fail

 

[eternally-gratefull]

But that did not answer my questions, I will ask in a different manner, maybe I didn;t word it well IDK, here goes

Is it the law in itself that causes death or is it the breaking of the law (sin) that causes death?

(old questions are below*)

*Is that a metaphor or did Paul literally die? and was it the law that caused death or sin that caused death?

Good luck

 

[RickStudies]

How can we learn obedience from a law that was only given to condemn and lead people to the messiah?

Jesus said how. By loving god, and our neighbor.

the law can not tell you who to do this, only show you how you fail

Jesus was quoting the law and teaching from it when He said that. You answered your own question.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Indeed, and I really like this passage, very clear and shows both sides;

John 14:23-24, " 23 Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me."

Amen yes.. love is the root

 

[FollowtheShepherd]

Psalms 119:165-166, " 165 Great peace have those who love your law; for them there is no stumbling-block. 166 I hope for your salvation, O LORD, and I do your commandments.

 

[NayborBear]

What???

Lol, your funny

Yanno what's not funny?
It's not funny when one who has the "Word of God" in their minds and in their hearts, explain things through their own language, that which is, and what it means to them? And other's, like yourself, DEMANDING "scriptural proofs!"
Like you are reading it for the first time!
And then? When given "scriptural proofs?"
Proclaim that "they don't know what they are talking about!"
Accept (my) jesus as your lord and savior!

That's what's NOT funny!

And, I'll tell ya why too!
In y'alls over zealousness of following Christ, but espacially (only) Paul?
Y'all have "taken the role of prince of the covenant!" Inasmuch, as y'all are striving to KILL "HE, who sent Jesus Christ!"(as if this were even possible !) To the point of even invoking the Lamb of God's name, in y'alls continuing to do so! (see the lie here?)

Well? Lord God Almighty ain't gonna let that happen!
(like your reading this for the first time)
Romans 11
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

What I'm saying, is y'all "believe" y'all are fully grafted!
And, because of this "belief?" You are now elevating Christ ABOVE He who sent Him! And, in so doing, are "robbing" He who sent Christ, and heaping it upon Christ!
And, in doing this? Y'all are doing this!
2 Thessalonians 2
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Revelation 5
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well I don't think the law leads people to God, I think His Spirit does, I think the law shows people in black and white hoe He wants us to behave.

Gal 3, the law is our schoomaster to LEAD US TO CHRIST,

Yes, i think God draws i agree, but God gave the law to help lead us who are being drawn to him, it exposes our unrighteousness

No the law does not bring a curse. Disobedience brings a curse. Thats like saying a hammer laying on a table will hammer a nail in, no a workman had to use/misuse that hammer.

Deuteronomy 28:15-16, " 15 “But if you will not obey the voice of the LORD your God or be careful to do all his commandments and his statutes that I command you today, then all these curses shall come upon you and overtake you. 16 Cursed shall you be in the city, and cursed shall you be in the field.

I think making the law a curse theology is calling God's righteous ways a curse.

No sin brings curses and eventually death. Some sins are sins unto death some are not. Sins not unto death can still bring curses even from the natural order of creation.

1 John 5:17, "All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not unto death."

Deuteronomy 27:26
‘Cursed is the one who does not confirm all the words of this law by observing them.’ “And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’ ”

Paul even said christ removed us from the curse of the law

Galatians 3:13
Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”),

The problem is no one can keep the requirement of the law, which is perfection (deut 27: 26) this as you said, sine we all have sinned, we all fall short (of that standard) and are all cursed.

God is the live giver, but Psalms and Jesus both seem to think obedience to God's commands matter in this equation:

Psalms 119:92-94, " 92 If your law had not been my delight, I would have perished in my affliction. 93 I will never forget your precepts, for by them you have given me life. 94 I am yours; save me, for I have sought your precepts."

Revelation 22:14-15, " 14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."

This leads us back to love, how to obey, love, christ is the example

Yes I agree on this 100% Jesus gave us example, we will not alywa live up to it every time but none the less He gave us example of how to walk.

TO your question, John said this;

1 John 5:2-3, " 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous."

We know we love when we keeep God's commands. SO any other love devod of this is false love. Jesus showed us the way to walk in this love.

Again love is key word as i have been saying

But there is sin unto death and sin not unto death, however all sins need mercy, without mercy it's a guilty verdict every time. So the ansewr is not throw out the law, the anser is be guided by the spirit;

The law is not thrown out it is fulfilled in us. Through faith. The penalty of sin is death all sin leads to death apart from grace (the love of God)

Hebrews 10:16-17, " 16 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Ezekiel 36:26-27, " 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them].

John 8:51 “Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone guards My Word he shall never see death at all.”

Yes he gives a heart which loves, which through love obeys

Jesus didn't toss out God's law He showed how to walk in it...



Matthew 22:37-40, " 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Yes, the point i have been making, and the root of the disagreement in this thread,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Jesus was quoting the law and teaching from it when He said that. You answered your own question.

No, i have not

He told us how to obey

He did not say obey by following the law,

He said obey by loving others

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Psalms 119:165-166, " 165 Great peace have those who love your law; for them there is no stumbling-block. 166 I hope for your salvation, O LORD, and I do your commandments.

Yep

How did he do those things

By love.,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yanno what's not funny?
It's not funny when one who has the "Word of God" in their minds and in their hearts, explain things through their own language, that which is, and what it means to them? And other's, like yourself, DEMANDING "scriptural proofs!"
Like you are reading it for the first time!
And then? When given "scriptural proofs?"
Proclaim that "they don't know what they are talking about!"
Accept (my) jesus as your lord and savior!

That's what's NOT funny!

And, I'll tell ya why too!
In y'alls over zealousness of following Christ, but espacially (only) Paul?
Y'all have "taken the role of prince of the covenant!" Inasmuch, as y'all are striving to KILL "HE, who sent Jesus Christ!"(as if this were even possible !) To the point of even invoking the Lamb of God's name, in y'alls continuing to do so! (see the lie here?)

Well? Lord God Almighty ain't gonna let that happen!
(like your reading this for the first time)
Romans 11
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

What I'm saying, is y'all "believe" y'all are fully grafted!
And, because of this "belief?" You are now elevating Christ ABOVE He who sent Him! And, in so doing, are "robbing" He who sent Christ, and heaping it upon Christ!
And, in doing this? Y'all are doing this!
2 Thessalonians 2
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Revelation 5
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

You have a serious comprehension issue

I am sick of trying to explain to you what i believe and you never comprehending it.

Good day

 

[FollowtheShepherd]

Yep

How did he do those things

By love.,

Of couse, and you are wonderful for saying that, also, I want to add, the law is love. If one is truly obediennt to God's law they will be loving beyond human measure. A false obedience devoid of love is not an obedience to His law/commands/ways.

1 John 5:2-3, " 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.

A "love" devoid of the ways He says is not love at all.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Of couse, and you are wonderful for saying that, also, I want to add, the law is love. If one is truly obediennt to God's law they will be loving beyond human measure. A false obedience devoid of love is not an obedience to His law/commands/ways.

1 John 5:2-3, " 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.

A "love" devoid of the ways He says is not love at all.

Yes it is all a of love which by nature does not break laws

Not trying to obey commands out of our carnal flesh.

 

[FollowtheShepherd]

Gal 3, the law is our schoomaster to LEAD US TO CHRIST, Yes, i think God draws i agree, but God gave the law to help lead us who are being drawn to him, it exposes our unrighteousness

Well the "teacher" never said to throw the textbook out, jsut the oppisite:

until heaven and earth pass away,

until all is accomplished.

But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one dot of the Law to become void.

I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,

those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus

Matthew 5:17-20, " 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Luke 16:16-17, " 16 “The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone forces his way into it. 17 But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one dot of the Law to become void.

Hebrews 10:15-17, " 15 And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying, 16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,” 17 then he adds, “I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”

Revelation 14:12-13, " 12 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. 13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Blessed indeed,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!”

Deuteronomy 27:26
‘Cursed is the one who does not confirm all the words of this law by observing them.’ “And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’ ”

Paul even said christ removed us from the curse of the law

Galatians 3:13
Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”),

The problem is no one can keep the requirement of the law, which is perfection (deut 27: 26) this as you said, sine we all have sinned, we all fall short (of that standard) and are all cursed.

So if the curse is removed why still call the law death? To the believe it is love, with the curse of death removed.... Yet so many people still cry the law be death and curses...

The law also offers blessings, it is SIN that causes curses.

This leads us back to love, how to obey, love, christ is the example
Again love is key word as i have been saying The law is not thrown out it is fulfilled in us. Through faith. The penalty of sin is death all sin leads to death apart from grace (the love of God) Yes he gives a heart which loves, which through love obeys Yes, the point i have been making, and the root of the disagreement in this thread,

And you can go through my posts and what I post on more than anything is simply Jesus is our example in His words and His deeds, and follow Him is what matters.

I feel like people say follow Him, but they ignore His teachings and that has becomethe or a main stream doctrine, not by saying/teaching it but by doing it.

 

[FollowtheShepherd]

Yes it is all a of love which by nature does not break laws

Not trying to obey commands out of our carnal flesh.

the flesh is against His law, the spirit guides us to walk in it and love it. Hearts and minds will be in the law the word says

 

[Dan_473]

No, you turned a question that you received an answer to as an opportunity to attack personally. Not appropriate.

SG

I did not attack. If I remember right, the person I was talking to had talked about how a person could move from wearing blended fabrics to single fabrics.

I then asked a follow-up question about what was actually in their sock drawer, I believe.

That hardly qualifies as an attack.

Is your vision of the bible discussion forum a place where everyone just posts their views, and it is considered an offense to ask someone details about what they have written?

Or did you want this to be a place where people discuss views only general concepts? But any personal question would be considered offensive?

For example, if we were discussing baptism, it would be fine to talk about different Bible verses or ideas regarding believers baptism vs. Infant baptism.
But it would be considered offensive to ask someone if they personally have ever baptized someone. Or if their Church baptize infants?

Is it the personal nature of my questions that are inappropriate, in your view?

Again, anyone here is welcome to ask me anything, within the limits of good taste set up by the mods.

 

[Dan_473]

No, you turned a question that you received an answer to as an opportunity to attack personally. Not appropriate.

SG

Say SG, here's just a brainstorm idea. If you feel my posts contain personal attacks or are inappropriate in some way, please report them to the mods. Then we could get their input about their vision for the forum, and the vision of the administrator.

 

[NayborBear]

You have a serious comprehension issue

I am sick of trying to explain to you what i believe and you never comprehending it.

Good day

Not that I don't comprehend/"see". I comprehend/"see" very well what you keep trying to "peddle."
I'm just not buying it!

Such a thing as a "correcting love" too, yanno?

But? You and I have been here (at least) several times before!

On the other hand? It seems you don't "comprehend/"see"", at least on this public venue, that which I am "peddling" either!

What's flesh, is flesh!
What's Spirit, is Spirit!

 

[Grandpa]

How does one "work" the law? Is it by the "work" or by the "law"

Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God the powers that be are ordained of God.
Romans 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

Romans 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same


Now, I know what is good to God, having studied with the schoolmaster His laws, if I then do good am I working the law?

If you are studying the 10 commandments and you decide "hey I should start taking saturdays off" or you are reading the Old Testament and you think "man, I should stop eating bacon" then you are working at the law.

The schoolmaster doesn't show you what is good. It only shows you your sin.

If you knew what was good to God you would have already been to Christ and received Rest from your work at the Law.


You would have started to be His Workmanship and you would have realized that He can Perfect you in ways that you could never perfect yourself by your "understanding" and "strength" at the law.