Not By Works

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FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
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How can they stand the anxiety?
Or, how can the lack of anxiety be possible?
Unfortunately this is just your own propoganda gone wild.
If you know Jesus that is security in itself, when you see the cross and Jesus dying for us,
humbles us, breaks us and brings us praise and worship of our Lord.

To walk away from this light is full of unbelievable anxiety, but to stay enfolded in Christ
and the Holy Spirit is peace beyond imagining.

My fear is this experience is not part of your walk, or else you would not share about people
you do not know and project something they do not experience.

I pray that you might find the overwhelming knowledge of Christ and His love floodding your
life. God bless you
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
3,674
1,201
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Its called watering down the law in a way they think they are ok, and judging others. Which makes yourself feel better ( i am not as bad as that guy!)
We cannot water down the law of God because it is written in our hearts and minds.
And walking with Jesus no one thinks or feels they are ok, rather they are weak and He
is unbelievably strong. Resting in Him and bringing everything to Him gives us direction
and focus. We are sinners saved by grace, cleansed and purified, in many ways worse than
many we meet each day, less worthy than the gifted people we meet who we would love
help bring to Jesus.

I pray that all might know the depth of grace God has for us, and how in Him we walk
from one stage of glory to the next, Amen.
 
Jul 17, 2019
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Knowing your opponent's strategy, amen
I would not be surprised if my defensive strategy to defend OSAS ultimately come down to this: copying and pasting what I have posted, right before EG's post on opponent's strategies

They ignore vast amounts of truth efficiently, I can copy and paste truth, if it's not broke, don't fix it
 
Jul 17, 2019
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How much work did it take you to trust in modern convenience? none
therefore, faith is NOT works
Seriously, people think that faith is a work?

Next think you know, they might claim that "Easter originally comes from Easter bunnies, nothing to do with Christianity" and make a conspiracy thread or BDF about it
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,995
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Thank you for your response. I don’t see love as being work; I see it as spiritual growth and maturity; the essence of God, hence the essence of who we are and who we become.
IN CHRIST.

I you have to WORK AT LOVE, it is way below the GOD GIVEN LOVE that HE poured into our Hearts.

Romans 5:5 (HCSB)
5 This hope will not disappoint ⌊us⌋, because God’s love has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,995
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IN CHRIST.

I you have to WORK AT LOVE, it is way below the GOD GIVEN LOVE that HE poured into our Hearts.

Romans 5:5 (HCSB)
5 This hope will not disappoint ⌊us⌋, because God’s love has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
I meant: IF you have to WORK AT LOVE . . . .
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
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Little children or babies are categorically safe but not saved. The fact is they not yet understand the gospel. On the other hand, Jesus accepts them.

Matthew 18:2-4 King James Version (KJV)
2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 19:13-15 King James Version (KJV)
13 Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.
14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
15 And he laid his hands on them, and departed thence.
Jesus came to save the world. The gospel saves the world except those that reject it.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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The Message is Absolute Faith WILL produce the FRUIT of the KIND OF LOVE only GOD can GIVE YOU. Without that LOVE you do not have ABSOLUTE FAITH. That is my opinion what that verse MEANS.

When did we receive GOD'S LOVE in our Hearts (Human Spirit)? When we were Born Again, when the HOLY SPIRIT came into our hearts.

Romans 5:5 (HCSB)
5 This hope will not disappoint ⌊us⌋, because God’s love has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

HIS LOVE IN US, WILL produce OBEDIENCE, after we are SAVED.

John 14:15 (HCSB)
15 “If you love Me, you will keep My commands.


Do you see what I mean, LOVE produces Obediance, while Salvation is a FREE GIFT.
1. If you do not love you do not know God, therefore can not talk about salvation at all

2. Love and faith are two things; the reason Paul is talking of absolute faith (complete/perfect faith) without love (works) is nothing

3. Love doesn't come from faith but faith comes from love.

If someone came to you with a need and you provided (work) their need because of your assured salvation (faith), then you are proud, but if you do it out of love, you are humble.
IOW, you don't love because of your assured salvation (faith), you love because loving is knowing God and knowing God is faith.

Do you copy?
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of GOD.....the power is in the message....

Wake up and smell the truth..............
John 10:37If I am not doing the works of My Father, then do not believe Me. 38But if I am doing them, even though you do not believe Me, believe the works themselves, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I am in the Father.”

John 5:36
But I have testimony more substantial than that of John. For the works that the Father has given Me to accomplish--the very works I am doing--testify about Me that the Father has sent Me.

The message points to the works (messenger). If Jesus had only asked people to believe in Him without Himself going on the cross then we wouldn't be talking about salvation either.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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Thank you for your response. I don’t see love as being work; I see it as spiritual growth and maturity; the essence of God, hence the essence of who we are and who we become.
1 John 3:
17If anyone with earthly possessions sees his brother in need, but withholds his compassion from him, how can the love of God abide in him?

18Little children, let us love not in word and speech, but in action and truth. 19And by this we will know that we belong to the truth, and will assure our hearts in His presence:

Definitely a work.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
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But do you agree that we have to grow in love?

With Jesus restoring Peter.

Jesus asked him twice do you love me. Do you Agape me?
Peter responded with I Phileo you.

3rd time Jesus asked "Do you Phileo me?

Peter gets upset "You know I do"

Jesus said "Feed my sheep"

That amazes me.
Jesus wants Agape love but accepts with our limited capacity to love.
In him, with him and through him we grow in this Agape love.

Peter did that and was killed for it.

Today we may not be killed for it but we die can die to it.
Set aside our Phileo love and seek Agape.
Not let our flesh rule but the heart of flesh rule.
That heart that God has given us.
The command is not burdensome, just show love to others in action and not rhetoric.

1 John 3:
17If anyone with earthly possessions sees his brother in need, but withholds his compassion from him, how can the love of God abide in him?

18Little children, let us love not in word and speech, but in action and truth. 19And by this we will know that we belong to the truth, and will assure our hearts in His presence:
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
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For some reason I can't respond to individual points you raise.

It will now I have replied to your whole post.

So gonna see if I can now do that. Apologies to all if I mess up.

Before I do I'm assuming that the way you talk about the it's not the O.T as such but the law of love the golden rule.



Saved by the blood of Jesus.



You need to clarify e.t.c for me please.
Children, disabled, vulnerable people with no ability of comprehension saved by the blood of Jesus.

Those who have never heard of Jesus?
Now if I'm totally honest this I am stumped on.

I have researched it pondered over it.
In this day and age is there an excuse for people not knowing about Jesus.
Yes there is.
There are tyrannical governments that suppress it.
We know from mission work believers to to such countries willing to give up their lives.

There are remote areas that we don't know about.
Do they have an excuse?
I really don't know, the only thing I know is that I know what sin is because it's been revealed to me.

I think there are verses in the bible that says "No one is innocent"
Even those who have not heard of Jesus.

People often quote the following

Romans 1:20-21
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

As a reason as to those who have not heard of Jesus will be condemned.

Actually I don't go with that.
For the simple reason they will not know there is Godhead, but know that there is God.

I could be wrong and will be told so by others.

How can one confess with their mouths and believe in Jesus if they have not heard off him?

They cannot.

So all I can think is that such people if they seek to do good and love then they are saved.

Because even though they do not know Jesus they knew that there is God who wants us to do good.

That is different from those who have been told about Jesus but refuse him.

I hope I make some sense.
You make so much sense but in summary, people are not saved by faith in Christ alone.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,995
4,615
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1. If you do not love you do not know God, therefore can not talk about salvation at all

2. Love and faith are two things; the reason Paul is talking of absolute faith (complete/perfect faith) without love (works) is nothing

3. Love doesn't come from faith but faith comes from love.

If someone came to you with a need and you provided (work) their need because of your assured salvation (faith), then you are proud, but if you do it out of love, you are humble.
IOW, you don't love because of your assured salvation (faith), you love because loving is knowing God and knowing God is faith.

Do you copy?

I DO NOT THINK LOVE IS A WORK.

IT IS PART OF OUR NEW NATURE of our eternally living human spirit after we have been Born Again. When HE says:

1 John 5:3 (HCSB)
3 For this is what love for God is: to keep His commands. Now His commands are not a burden,

IT IS NOT A BURDEN BECAUSE YOU ARE DOING IT OUT OF LOVE.

Would you call pushing a wheelchair of a family member who was crippled in an accident, A WORK, or JUST LOVE?

Our OBEDIENCE, spawns from our LOVE, the very LOVE that GOD had the HOLY SPIRIT Pour Into Our Heart (human spirit).
AND as far as I know, GOD only POURS HIS LOVE IN THE HEARTS, of TRUE BELIEVERS.


Romans 5:5 (HCSB)
5 This hope will not disappoint ⌊us⌋, because God’s love has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

Therefore, I must object that you chose to put (works) in two places, IT SHOULD BE the (LOVE) HE POURED INTO OUR HEARTS.
 
Jul 25, 2019
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It does not get any plainer..........Our righteous works have ZERO to do with Salvation!

English Standard Version
he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Berean Study Bible
He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of new birth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.

Berean Literal Bible
He saved us, not by works in righteousness that we did, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

New American Standard Bible
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

King James Bible
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
NABRE James 2:14-26
14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? 17 So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 Indeed someone may say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. 19 You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble. 20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. 23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.” 24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route? 26 For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

KJV
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

ESV
14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good[a] is that? 17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! 20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

DRA

14 What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him?
15 And if a brother or sister be naked, and want daily food:
16 And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit?
17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself.
18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith.
19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God.
24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?
25 And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers, and sending them out another way?
26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead.

CSB
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but does not have works? Can such faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister is without clothes and lacks daily food 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, stay warm, and be well fed,” but you don’t give them what the body needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way faith, if it doesn’t have works, is dead by itself.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.”[a] Show me your faith without works, and I will show you faith by my works. 19 You believe that God is one. Good! Even the demons believe—and they shudder.
20 Senseless person! Are you willing to learn that faith without works is useless? 21 Wasn’t Abraham our father justified by works in offering Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active together with his works, and by works, faith was made complete, 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,[b] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 In the same way, wasn’t Rahab the prostitute also justified by works in receiving the messengers and sending them out by a different route? 26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

This is very clear to me too.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
I DO NOT THINK LOVE IS A WORK.

IT IS PART OF OUR NEW NATURE of our eternally living human spirit after we have been Born Again. When HE says:

1 John 5:3 (HCSB)
3 For this is what love for God is: to keep His commands. Now His commands are not a burden,

IT IS NOT A BURDEN BECAUSE YOU ARE DOING IT OUT OF LOVE.

Would you call pushing a wheelchair of a family member who was crippled in an accident, A WORK, or JUST LOVE?

Our OBEDIENCE, spawns from our LOVE, the very LOVE that GOD had the HOLY SPIRIT Pour Into Our Heart (human spirit).
AND as far as I know, GOD only POURS HIS LOVE IN THE HEARTS, of TRUE BELIEVERS.


Romans 5:5 (HCSB)
5 This hope will not disappoint ⌊us⌋, because God’s love has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

Therefore, I must object that you chose to put (works) in two places, IT SHOULD BE the (LOVE) HE POURED INTO OUR HEARTS.
1 John 3:
17If anyone with earthly possessions sees his brother in need, but withholds his compassion from him, how can the love of God abide in him?

18Little children, let us love not in word and speech, but in action and truth. 19And by this we will know that we belong to the truth, and will assure our hearts in His presence

Love is work. Pushing a wheel chair is work both by religious definition and Physics also.
Giving to the needy is work. Work is love and without it we are nothing.