Not By Works
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I may be missing your point here.
If love, loving each other is necessary for salvation then where does that leave those who have not placed faith in Jesus?
Many people love and do great things for others yet do not believe or have accepted Jesus as Lord and saviour.
I'm not trying to create a strawman here but a believer may do works of love and non believers the same works and still not be loved. When I talk about works of love I am talking about works that are done for the good of the recipient with no recompense required.
Agape Love.
So there must be a reason why one is saved and not the other.
If that is the case then it must be faith that is the difference.
If so then faith will produce more than love.
Galatians 5:22-23
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
I totally agree that love is central to all.
Jesus said love God and love your neighbor.
He also said love your enemies.
So for me love is not necessary for salvation but faith is.
If we are not walking in the love Jesus has commanded of us (and yes it is command) then we need to pray to grow in this love.
If someone professes to have faith but refuses to walk in the way of Jesus, not just in love but the fruit mentioned above then that's another issue.
So please know I'm not creating a strawman, just giving my thoughts and I'm open to your thoughtful response.
Bill
If love, loving each other is necessary for salvation then where does that leave those who have not placed faith in Jesus?
Many people love and do great things for others yet do not believe or have accepted Jesus as Lord and saviour.
I'm not trying to create a strawman here but a believer may do works of love and non believers the same works and still not be loved. When I talk about works of love I am talking about works that are done for the good of the recipient with no recompense required.
Agape Love.
So there must be a reason why one is saved and not the other.
If that is the case then it must be faith that is the difference.
If so then faith will produce more than love.
Galatians 5:22-23
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
I totally agree that love is central to all.
Jesus said love God and love your neighbor.
He also said love your enemies.
So for me love is not necessary for salvation but faith is.
If we are not walking in the love Jesus has commanded of us (and yes it is command) then we need to pray to grow in this love.
If someone professes to have faith but refuses to walk in the way of Jesus, not just in love but the fruit mentioned above then that's another issue.
So please know I'm not creating a strawman, just giving my thoughts and I'm open to your thoughtful response.
Bill
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Your not a Christian please dont full yourself. Nothing in you reflects Jesus what so ever.
This is why I turned away from a such a gospel. I am glad I did now
. Because I don't want to be part of this hypocrisy anyone. Real Christian's strive to do what's right. Nothing in you cares about what's right and that's evident in your behavior. Your behavior also shows you lack love for God, because you purposely ignore all his commands. In the end that will be your fault not mine. You can answer to God for your behaviour towards others. This is why people hate religion because of this hypocrisy they see.
This is why I turned away from a such a gospel. I am glad I did now
. Because I don't want to be part of this hypocrisy anyone. Real Christian's strive to do what's right. Nothing in you cares about what's right and that's evident in your behavior. Your behavior also shows you lack love for God, because you purposely ignore all his commands. In the end that will be your fault not mine. You can answer to God for your behaviour towards others. This is why people hate religion because of this hypocrisy they see.
Listen, you are as determined to stand your ground, all for God's Glory, as are others. Just because one doesn't believe a works based salvation, doesn't mean they ignore all His commands.
I may be wrong, but no one is saying how we live our lives, how we walk out our faith, does not matter. To the saved, our Salvation is so much more than words, what we say or profess to believe. It matters very MUCH!!! I just think they and you believe and stand strongly that our salvation will always belong to Him. If not, consider remembering who He is and the profitable work He does within.
I am not avoiding standing in my truth, skirting the truth, what I believe is His, just that I think much here is lost in the translation.
He empowers, our works, the fruit He produces if saved, they belong to Him. All power, all authority, and praise be to Him and Him alone.
I reckon the issue that I have is that it wouldn't get heated to the point of coarseness, hypocrisies, judgements, scoffing, mocking and bashing, both sides guilty, if ppl could make their stand with their hearts desire to appeal for the cause of God and then move forward, dusting off their respective feet as they exit the discussion.
I do understand now, though, new ppl come in and so the conversation starts over... I get it.
I also respect why the conversation is VERY important but the bickering back and forth isn't, because it isn't getting anywhere, and it can cause stumble, for the believer and unbeliever. < It is biblical, not just my opinion. Self control is another sweet sweet fruit He produces in the believer who is willing to obey.
OK, now that my Mama Bear ways have frustrated both sides, I will walk away, lol.
God Bless you all.
If we cannot emphatically stand for the truth then what do we stand for....????
If we cannot emphatically defend the truth then what do we defend???
If we cannot use and employ heat, sarcasm and pointed truth such as JESUS, PAUL, ELIJAH, John the BAPTIST did, then do we devalue the GOD given examples that are biblical?
There is absolute truth and there is that which is absolutely FALSE and I do stand appalled at the ease to which the truth is swept aside in favor of the acceptance of and coddling of those that devalue the truth for the sake of unity.........
If we cannot emphatically defend the truth then what do we defend???
If we cannot use and employ heat, sarcasm and pointed truth such as JESUS, PAUL, ELIJAH, John the BAPTIST did, then do we devalue the GOD given examples that are biblical?
There is absolute truth and there is that which is absolutely FALSE and I do stand appalled at the ease to which the truth is swept aside in favor of the acceptance of and coddling of those that devalue the truth for the sake of unity.........
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Good question but i also have a question for you.
Q. Where does faith leave the little children? How are they saved or are they doomed because they don't understand?
You see, Christ came to save the world (whosoever) not to condemn it and He saves by love for He loved the world- not faith alonists.
Children and all those people who haven't been presented by the law (commandment to love)- basically, all who never hear of Christ (children/ disabled/ e.t.c) are saved by Christ because the law brings to the fore our sins, but in their case, there's no law so sin has no sting in them or rather is overcome by the works of God.
For the rest of us who have received the law and all the law is fulfilled in one commandment (love one another), sin is exposed and judgement abides unless we become one with the one who fulfilled the law. Becoming one with Him is knowing Him and knowing Him is loving one another the bible has said.
A muslim who has rejected Christ and His works of love and His command to love has no faith and therefore his works of love are futile.
John 14:15If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.16And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Advocate to be with you forever
John 14:21
Whoever has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me. The one who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and reveal Myself to him."
John 15:10
If you keep My commandments, you will remain in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and remain in His love.
1 John 2:3
By this we can be sure that we have come to know Him: if we keep His commandments.
1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome,
2 John 1:6
And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the very commandment you have heard from the beginning, that you must walk in love.
1 John 3:
14We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. The one who does not love remains in death. 15Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that eternal life does not reside in a murderer.
16By this we know what love is: Jesus laid down His life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. 17If anyone with earthly possessions sees his brother in need, but withholds his compassion from him, how can the love of God abide in him?
18Little children, let us love not in word and speech, but in action and truth. 19And by this we will know that we belong to the truth, and will assure our hearts in His presence: 20If our hearts condemn us, God is greater than our hearts, and He knows all things.
Q. Where does faith leave the little children? How are they saved or are they doomed because they don't understand?
You see, Christ came to save the world (whosoever) not to condemn it and He saves by love for He loved the world- not faith alonists.
Children and all those people who haven't been presented by the law (commandment to love)- basically, all who never hear of Christ (children/ disabled/ e.t.c) are saved by Christ because the law brings to the fore our sins, but in their case, there's no law so sin has no sting in them or rather is overcome by the works of God.
For the rest of us who have received the law and all the law is fulfilled in one commandment (love one another), sin is exposed and judgement abides unless we become one with the one who fulfilled the law. Becoming one with Him is knowing Him and knowing Him is loving one another the bible has said.
A muslim who has rejected Christ and His works of love and His command to love has no faith and therefore his works of love are futile.
John 14:15If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.16And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Advocate to be with you forever
John 14:21
Whoever has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me. The one who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and reveal Myself to him."
John 15:10
If you keep My commandments, you will remain in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and remain in His love.
1 John 2:3
By this we can be sure that we have come to know Him: if we keep His commandments.
1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome,
2 John 1:6
And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the very commandment you have heard from the beginning, that you must walk in love.
1 John 3:
14We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. The one who does not love remains in death. 15Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that eternal life does not reside in a murderer.
16By this we know what love is: Jesus laid down His life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. 17If anyone with earthly possessions sees his brother in need, but withholds his compassion from him, how can the love of God abide in him?
18Little children, let us love not in word and speech, but in action and truth. 19And by this we will know that we belong to the truth, and will assure our hearts in His presence: 20If our hearts condemn us, God is greater than our hearts, and He knows all things.