Loss of salvation.
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Since your viewpoint is opposing the translation, let's look at the context.
Nicodemus reply shows us that he understood Jesus as saying being born again a second time. So let's assume that Jesus said "born from above"... does it make sense Nicodemus would discuss being born out of his mothers womb again?
John 3:4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?”
Bet let's look for a second Greek witness, let's look at what Paul says to Titus about being saved:
Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
This particular Greek word is more clear.
Here's what Strong says about the word, "regeneration".
3824 paliggenesía (from 3825 /pálin, "again" and 1078 /génesis, "birth, beginning") – properly, the coming of new birth because "born again"; regeneration.
3824 /paliggenesía ("renewal, rebirth") is used twice in the NT referring to: a) the re-birth of physical creation at Christ's return (Advent), which inaugurates His millennial kingdom (Mt 19:28; cf. Ro 8:18-25); and b) the re-birth all believers experience at conversion (Tit 3:5).
This Greek word, paliggenesia, is definitely, "again birth".
So taking the context in account and also finding another witness in a Greek word in relation to salvation, I believe the idea is clear that a person is "born again".
Nicodemus reply shows us that he understood Jesus as saying being born again a second time. So let's assume that Jesus said "born from above"... does it make sense Nicodemus would discuss being born out of his mothers womb again?
John 3:4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?”
Bet let's look for a second Greek witness, let's look at what Paul says to Titus about being saved:
Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
This particular Greek word is more clear.
Here's what Strong says about the word, "regeneration".
3824 paliggenesía (from 3825 /pálin, "again" and 1078 /génesis, "birth, beginning") – properly, the coming of new birth because "born again"; regeneration.
3824 /paliggenesía ("renewal, rebirth") is used twice in the NT referring to: a) the re-birth of physical creation at Christ's return (Advent), which inaugurates His millennial kingdom (Mt 19:28; cf. Ro 8:18-25); and b) the re-birth all believers experience at conversion (Tit 3:5).
This Greek word, paliggenesia, is definitely, "again birth".
So taking the context in account and also finding another witness in a Greek word in relation to salvation, I believe the idea is clear that a person is "born again".
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That word is regeneration and it's talking of all humankind being born again. The Greek means "again birth". It's very clear. But even renewal isn't far off, even though the idea of renewal is more about completing a process.
Renewal in the Greek is:
342 anakaínōsis (from 303 /aná, "up, completing a process," which intensifies kainō, "make fresh, new"; see 2537 /kainós) – properly, a newdevelopment; a renewal, achieved by God's power.
This is also the same Greek word that is being referred next to regeneration in Titus 3.
Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
Both are needed. We are reborn. And then we are completed by Holy Spirit.
Renewal in the Greek is:
342 anakaínōsis (from 303 /aná, "up, completing a process," which intensifies kainō, "make fresh, new"; see 2537 /kainós) – properly, a newdevelopment; a renewal, achieved by God's power.
This is also the same Greek word that is being referred next to regeneration in Titus 3.
Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
Both are needed. We are reborn. And then we are completed by Holy Spirit.
B. παλιγγενεσία in the NT.
1. In Mt. 19:28: ἐν τῇ παλιγγενεσίᾳ, the use of παλιγγενεσία is in full agreement with that of Philo and Josephus. The Jewish faith in the resurrection of the dead and the renewal of the world is clothed in this term.
Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, ed. Gerhard Kittel, Geoffrey W. Bromiley and Gerhard Friedrich, electronic ed. (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1964-), 688.
67.147 παλιγγενεσίαb, ας f: an era involving the renewal of the world (with special reference to the time of the Messiah)—‘new age, Messianic age.’ ἐν τῇ παλιγγενεσίᾳ, ὅταν καθίσῃ ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ἐπὶ θρόνου δόξης αὐτῦ ‘when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne in the new age’ Mt 19:28.
Johannes P. Louw and Eugene Albert Nida, vol. 1, Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: Based on Semantic Domains, electronic ed. of the 2nd edition. (New York: United Bible Societies, 1996), 648.
1. In Mt. 19:28: ἐν τῇ παλιγγενεσίᾳ, the use of παλιγγενεσία is in full agreement with that of Philo and Josephus. The Jewish faith in the resurrection of the dead and the renewal of the world is clothed in this term.
Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, ed. Gerhard Kittel, Geoffrey W. Bromiley and Gerhard Friedrich, electronic ed. (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1964-), 688.
67.147 παλιγγενεσίαb, ας f: an era involving the renewal of the world (with special reference to the time of the Messiah)—‘new age, Messianic age.’ ἐν τῇ παλιγγενεσίᾳ, ὅταν καθίσῃ ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ἐπὶ θρόνου δόξης αὐτῦ ‘when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne in the new age’ Mt 19:28.
Johannes P. Louw and Eugene Albert Nida, vol. 1, Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: Based on Semantic Domains, electronic ed. of the 2nd edition. (New York: United Bible Societies, 1996), 648.
R
And so that means everybody else in the non-OSAS camp has to be on that roller coaster ride of fear and bondage to insecurity too, right?
See? This is what I've been talking about. Don't project your relationship with God onto others. I know it's natural to automatically assume everybody else surely feels the same as you do about things, but it's not true. I'll say it again......a big step in Christian maturity is to stop thinking everybody else is like you and can not possibly be thinking and responding differently to life.
I'm not 'once saved always saved' and I've never felt more secure in my salvation than now. Stop insisting that I have to feel like you and be insecure in my salvation because I don't believe in once saved always saved. Good grief, mailman, you came from the Catholic Church. That explains a lot about YOU. Most of us don't have the same mislaid foundation as you do. So we're going to have a different relationship with God than you. You were taught to work your way to heaven. I wasn't, along with a lot of other people in the church who don't believe in once saved always saved. Please, stop telling us we must certainly be insecure and afraid of losing salvation because you were. That's YOUR experience with non-OSAS, not everybody's.
See? This is what I've been talking about. Don't project your relationship with God onto others. I know it's natural to automatically assume everybody else surely feels the same as you do about things, but it's not true. I'll say it again......a big step in Christian maturity is to stop thinking everybody else is like you and can not possibly be thinking and responding differently to life.
I'm not 'once saved always saved' and I've never felt more secure in my salvation than now. Stop insisting that I have to feel like you and be insecure in my salvation because I don't believe in once saved always saved. Good grief, mailman, you came from the Catholic Church. That explains a lot about YOU. Most of us don't have the same mislaid foundation as you do. So we're going to have a different relationship with God than you. You were taught to work your way to heaven. I wasn't, along with a lot of other people in the church who don't believe in once saved always saved. Please, stop telling us we must certainly be insecure and afraid of losing salvation because you were. That's YOUR experience with non-OSAS, not everybody's.
R
You need to wake up. Time to get out of denial. Read this:
Time to wake up. Keep reading:
"Even if a believer for all practical purposes becomes an unbeliever, his salvation is not in jeopardy… believers who lose or abandon their faith will retain their salvation."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseverance_of_the_saints#Free_Grace_doctrine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseverance_of_the_saints#Free_Grace_doctrine
Time to wake up. Keep reading:
In a chapter entitled "For Those Who Stop Believing", he says, "The Bible clearly teaches that God's love for His people is of such magnitude that even those who walk away from the faith have not the slightest chance of slipping from His hand (p. 74)." A little later, Stanley also writes: "You and I are not saved because we have an enduring faith. We are saved because at a moment in time we expressed faith in our enduring Lord" (p. 80).
Are you saying that if you take away the fear of losing salvation people will no longer follow God? Because if so, I wonder if that person was ever truly following Him.
It's like me getting married and only loving my wife so she won't divorce me. I feel like we need to go deeper here in the reality of the goodness and beauty of knowing God. This is one of my issues with religion, it encourages a shallow form of relationship.
It's like me getting married and only loving my wife so she won't divorce me. I feel like we need to go deeper here in the reality of the goodness and beauty of knowing God. This is one of my issues with religion, it encourages a shallow form of relationship.
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R
Did someone say 'believing' is NOT something you do? I've been saying it all along--believing is what YOU DO. God gives you the faith to know something is true, then YOU DO the trusting in what he has shown you to be true.
The terrible error you are making is thinking that Paul said anything YOU do is you trying to justify yourself. He did not say that. He said the thing you do that constitutes you trying to justify yourself is the works of the law. He contrasted that with the very thing you must do to be justified--believe. But you think he said you can not do anything or you are trying to justify yourself in a works gospel.
The works gospel is not defined by 'anything you do to get justified'. It is defined by 'doing the works of the law to get justified'. The very thing you are to do to be justified is trust in Christ. YOU must do that to be justified.
,
That's what 'believing' is. It's YOU placing your trust in Christ because you trust that he can and will save you. That is the very thing YOU must do (as you yourself say YOU are doing) in order to be justified. That's not the works gospel. If me believing is a works gospel, then it is for you too.
...or you get lured away by the desires of the flesh and abandon justification in Christ. The stronger and more grounded the word of the gospel becomes in you the less chance there is of you going back to the world. You must grow up into the place where you won't go back to the world.
Time will tell if you do or not. In your doctrine you can't even know you're really saved until all testings to see if you won't fall away, proving you're a 'real' believer, have been exhausted. In other words, you can never know if you're a true believer who perseveres to the very end until............the very end. And that's supposed to be the doctrine of security ('chuckle, chuckle').
As for me, I'm trusting him completely. That's what 'believing' is. If I did not trust God completely then I would be an unbeliever. But as it is, I am believing in and trusting God to be the payment for my sins. That means I'm saved, right now. No if's, and's, or but's about it. You're secure in Christ as long as you are believing. Stay in the safe place, people. Stay in Christ where salvation is sure and safe. As long as you do that you have nothing to fear, nothing to worry about. Venture outside of faith in Christ and that's when you should start worrying and feeling insecure.
The terrible error you are making is thinking that Paul said anything YOU do is you trying to justify yourself. He did not say that. He said the thing you do that constitutes you trying to justify yourself is the works of the law. He contrasted that with the very thing you must do to be justified--believe. But you think he said you can not do anything or you are trying to justify yourself in a works gospel.
The works gospel is not defined by 'anything you do to get justified'. It is defined by 'doing the works of the law to get justified'. The very thing you are to do to be justified is trust in Christ. YOU must do that to be justified.
,
That's what 'believing' is. It's YOU placing your trust in Christ because you trust that he can and will save you. That is the very thing YOU must do (as you yourself say YOU are doing) in order to be justified. That's not the works gospel. If me believing is a works gospel, then it is for you too.
...or you get lured away by the desires of the flesh and abandon justification in Christ. The stronger and more grounded the word of the gospel becomes in you the less chance there is of you going back to the world. You must grow up into the place where you won't go back to the world.
Time will tell if you do or not. In your doctrine you can't even know you're really saved until all testings to see if you won't fall away, proving you're a 'real' believer, have been exhausted. In other words, you can never know if you're a true believer who perseveres to the very end until............the very end. And that's supposed to be the doctrine of security ('chuckle, chuckle').
As for me, I'm trusting him completely. That's what 'believing' is. If I did not trust God completely then I would be an unbeliever. But as it is, I am believing in and trusting God to be the payment for my sins. That means I'm saved, right now. No if's, and's, or but's about it. You're secure in Christ as long as you are believing. Stay in the safe place, people. Stay in Christ where salvation is sure and safe. As long as you do that you have nothing to fear, nothing to worry about. Venture outside of faith in Christ and that's when you should start worrying and feeling insecure.
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R
Absolutely not.
I'm different than EG. See, I believe that there are people who will love and follow God because they love righteousness. EG believes that as long as God is worthy of our love (which he is), and will never let us down (which he never will) they will never leave him. I guess he sees all believers as being that immature. I see them as eventually growing up and living for and serving God because righteousness (right things) thrills their soul, and so they stay in faith for that reason.
Do yourself a favor. Get this 'not really a believer' thinking out of your head that you have been programmed with. Surely there are those who never really believed to begin with (1 John 2:19), but there are also those who really did believe but who fall away (Matthew 8:13).
There is strong faith, and there is weak faith. Stop looking at faith as an 'either or' proposition. The idea here is to grow up into strong believers who can and will endure to the very end and not get lost along the way by falling away from trust in Christ for salvation.
I'm different than EG. See, I believe that there are people who will love and follow God because they love righteousness. EG believes that as long as God is worthy of our love (which he is), and will never let us down (which he never will) they will never leave him. I guess he sees all believers as being that immature. I see them as eventually growing up and living for and serving God because righteousness (right things) thrills their soul, and so they stay in faith for that reason.
Do yourself a favor. Get this 'not really a believer' thinking out of your head that you have been programmed with. Surely there are those who never really believed to begin with (1 John 2:19), but there are also those who really did believe but who fall away (Matthew 8:13).
There is strong faith, and there is weak faith. Stop looking at faith as an 'either or' proposition. The idea here is to grow up into strong believers who can and will endure to the very end and not get lost along the way by falling away from trust in Christ for salvation.