Not By Works

[dcontroversal]

Being insulting now are you. Great way to witness.

You have a lot to learn if you think I am witnessing....more like standing against the false religious rigmarole that you espouse and push

 

[benhur]

the focus of the rich young ruler- after he told Jesus " all these I have kept from my youth ", Jesus said " you still lack one thing ".

command keeping does not save. Jesus told him to sell what he had, give to the poor, then he would have treasure in Haven. he was not told he would get treasure added to what he had accrued by command keeping.

So selling all that he had and giving it to the poor would not have been command keeping?

 

[dcontroversal]

OK, if we can't believe the bible then that doesn't leave much to believe in does it? If what you say is true then I'm sure that if you tried real hard you could find an error or discrepancy in any version or translation. How do you really know for sure that if there was an error that the scribe that made the so-called error was not directed by the Holy Spirit to do so.

No worries mate....he rejects the bible as the sole rule of faith and practice in favor of "The Creed"........and according to him, his religious persuasion and biblical ignorance, there are numerous modes of BAPTISM...

 

[benhur]

Hi posthuman,

If the rich young ruler was repentant, why would Jesus say; “Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven." The second time He said to His disciples; "Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

I believe The Rich Young Ruler was "grieved" because he owned much property and did not want to give it all up.. The bible does not support the idea that he was sad because he was repentant. And wouldn't the bible tell us if he later came to follow Jesus, no, but it does say "he went away grieved."

I can appreciate your sympathy for the man but it does not appear that he was repentant, and Jesus said just the opposite, it is hard for a rich man to enter heaven.

Matthew19:20-24
20) The young man *said to Him, “All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?”
21) Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”
22) But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property.
23) And Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. [SUP]24
[/SUP]24) Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

TruthTalk, you are right on this subject, good answer.

 

[dcontroversal]

I rejected your version. I go with what the Bible plainly states. The whole Bible on a given topic. I use Berkhofs Systematic Theology to research all verses on a topic. How do you research all verses on a topic? It is very insulting to accuse me of adhering to Catholic dogma. Why are you so hate filled? This is a Christian site and you ignore why the early church elders created first the Roman Creed in the 200s and updated it in 390 to the Apostles Creed. Why are you so egotistical to disregard the elders reasons for creating it back then and the need for it now. It is a statement of basic Christian doctrine. I have asked before for you to tell what errors it contains but you repeatedly ignore that question.

History
In the early church there were heresies and legitimate differences of opinion. The Roman Creed of the 200s was created and later updated to the Apostles Creed. It defined non heretical doctrine and allowed differences of opinion outside of what it stated.

With this being the reason for it either explain its errors or shut up about it!! Nothing is wrong with a factual statement of doctrine unless it contains errors. What are the errors?

Hahahhahahaa

1st I go with above <--false! Not hardly and if you did, you would be pushing truth instead of that which is false

2nd Filled with hate <---false! Do not mistake hate for an adament rejction of and stance against what you espouse and spew

3rd Your Catholic creed means nothing to me....the bible trumps it ever time

LASTLY....Your false views come from either your religion and or the creed you push over the bible...

 

[dcontroversal]

So let me get this straight you are trusting a site to do research which statistically could be in "error" in order to clarify supposed "errors" in the bible?
Yet somehow the bible translations that you could "read for yourself" you do not trust because you don't trust who wrote them and believe them to have errors because of this?

Amen Joe....he is a walking, talking biblical contradiction...his view alllows for multiple choice immersion....probably on salvation as well!

 

[joefizz]

Amen Joe....he is a walking, talking biblical contradiction...his view alllows for multiple choice immersion....probably on salvation as well!

Exactly why I try not to rely so much on "internet" or "people" for scripture understanding,because there are so many views that sound "almost" like God's word yet through a person's actions and focus it becomes evident which is true and which false.

 

[Deade]

So selling all that he had and giving it to the poor would not have been command keeping?

You are missing the point. The point is a trust issue. All rich men trust in their money. It is habit forming, that is always what they have done. It's impossible for them to toss it all and live in faith. Even the Apostles couldn't do it unless called of God. That is why they marveled and asked who then, can be saved. Jesus said: Matt. 19:26 "But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”"

 

[dcontroversal]

You are missing the point. The point is a trust issue. All rich men trust in their money. It is habit forming, that is always what they have done. It's impossible for them to toss it all and live in faith. Even the Apostles couldn't do it unless called of God. That is why they marveled and asked who then, can be saved. Jesus said: Matt. 19:26 "But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”"

Amen...spot on.....when the dust settles, the heaven has been ripped open, and the sun and moon go dark....all that matters is...

a. Did I believe into Christ biblically
b. Did I trust Jesus and the bible concerning the one true message of salvation.

 

[Shamah]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 14:23-24, “יהושע answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me.”

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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Acts 3:19-23, “Repent therefore and turn back, for the blotting out of your sins, in order that times of refreshing might come from the presence of the Master, and that He sends יהושע [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Messiah, pre-appointed for you, whom heaven needs to receive until the times of restoration of all matters, of which the Mighty One spoke through the mouth of all His set-apart prophets since of old. For Mosheh truly said to the fathers, ‘[/FONT]יהוה [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]your Mighty One shall raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brothers. Him you shall hear according to all matters, whatever He says to you. And it shall be that every being who does not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.”[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
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[tourist]

That is why I use biblegateway.com. It allows looking up a book and chapter with a specific translation. Then you can change translations and see the differences between them. By comparing different translations the small errors are easily rejected. I normally use NIV and AMPC. NIV is a good modern translation and AMPC gives more detail by giving all translations of the original language word. Here is John 3:16 in 4 translations. Note the AMPC version with more information.

John 3:16 KJV
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:16 NIV
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:16 ESV
16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 3 AMPC Amplified Classic
16 For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.

It would be nice for someone in a position of authority to absolutely state what bible version or translation is the only one that does not contain seemingly minute errors to the untrained eye. It's very hard to be united in Christ if everyone uses the wrong bible or is not fluent in Aramaic, Hebrew, or Greek or has a PHD in biblical studies.

In every major version of the bible it states that it is possible to know who God is and what He is about without even reading the Word. Perhaps we should all go with that instead of studying a bible that everyone finds fault with in interpretation and practical application in how they conduct their lives.

 

[Deade]

It would be nice for someone in a position of authority to absolutely state what bible version or translation is the only one that does not contain seemingly minute errors to the untrained eye. It's very hard to be united in Christ if everyone uses the wrong bible or is not fluent in Aramaic, Hebrew, or Greek or has a PHD in biblical studies.

In every major version of the bible it states that it is possible to know who God is and what He is about without even reading the Word. Perhaps we should all go with that instead of studying a bible that everyone finds fault with in interpretation and practical application in how they conduct their lives.

Well tourist, if we used all the material available and let the Holy Spirit guide us we won't worry about any transcription errors. There are single instances of Bible references that I still can't consolidate into the whole. That doesn't worry me.

 

[Magenta]

I check and recheck but many times I don't see all of the problems. Some problems like line spacing only appear after posting. It is frustrating. Only have this problem on this site.

In that case, regarding the formatting issue and how your message is going to appear once it is actually posted, have you tried the option of "Go Advanced"? It is right beside Post Quick Reply. Once you view it that way, you can look at it again and again, by selecting Preview Post before you actually Submit Reply. If line breaks are not as you would have them, they can be easily fixed then.

Another option, if you have posted a message that you then right away see many editing errors you would want to correct, is to select the Edit Post option within the first five minutes, copy your post, and then delete it (the delete option is presented when the Edit Post option is selected), to start over again by pasting it into the message box. That is a best case scenario when you know your time may run out otherwise. One problem that happens when doing it that way, is if you have a quote in your post, it may be broken into more than one quote box. Sometimes that is caused by a smilie, or even just punctuation. Yes, it is annoying. I have tried fixing that by removing the extra quote and /quote html, but they automatically reinsert themselves. I think next time I am going to do it that way, I will go back to the post I am quoting and quote it directly again, and then just erase the copied quote that is broken from my pasted response.

 

[VCO]

And, VCO, if I may add that believing with one's heart is not the end of it.

Knowing in, &/or believing with, one's mind that Jesus is Lord and Savior of the world, & obedience to Him with one's will, are also necessary, I think, for said inner, personal, love relationship with Jesus, Whose Name is exalted above every other name. Total submission. Nothing less - to the best of our frail human ability, combined with His Strength. To do our part for Him, as He has done His for us.

Thanks!

Not sure that I can agree with the last sentence. The more I read it, it sounds like we must do our part for Him, in order to be SAVED. I HOPE NOT!

JESUS DID IT ALL, and that is what GRACE (the FREE GIFT) means.

After we are SAVED, yes, we show out LOVE for HIM as a genuine form of LOVE. It is not part of SALVATION, but always will be part of our LOVE for HIM, and for Other Believers.


Romans 5:9-10 (HCSB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Much more then, since we have now been declared righteous by His blood, we will be saved through Him from wrath.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, ⌊then how⌋ much more, having been reconciled, will we be saved by His life!


Ephesians 2:8-10 (NCV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] I mean that you have been saved by grace through believing. {YOU HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT} You did not save yourselves; it was a gift from God.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] It was not the result of your own efforts, so you cannot brag about it.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] God has made us what we are. In Christ Jesus, God made us to do good works {which happens after you are SAVED by the Free GIFT of GOD}, which God planned in advance for us to live our lives doing.


[video=youtube;-FHwdx5BIvc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FHwdx5BIvc[/video]

 

[posthuman]

Since we have none of the original documents, does that make that statement irrelevant?

Only as much as all statistical analysis is 'irrelevant' on account of not knowing the true values of parameters.

 

[posthuman]

But don't you find it interesting that different translations of the bible give different ways to be saved? In fact don't you find it interesting that in the same translation of the bible it seems to give contradictory ways to be saved?

The 2 most important doctrines in the bible is Jesus is the Christ, and this is how a person can have life eternal. That Jesus is the Christ is not a question in any bible, but how a person is saved certainly is a basis for argument (sometimes angry argument - see on this forum).

Do all Bibles not say 'believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved' and 'whoever puts their trust in Him will not be put to shame' ?

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Exactly...His name is Jesus and he is our Advocate....and our overwhelming guilt has been nailed to the cross, scrubbed and hidden by the blood of Christ and we have been saved eternally by faith through grace with no works, religious hoop jumping or false law keeping farce added....

amen brother

i place all my hope in Him

 

[NoNameMcgee]

mark 4

3 Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow:

4 And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up.

5 And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth:

6 But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away.

7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit.

8 And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred.


______________

14 The sower soweth the word.

15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

called but not chosen <- no saving faith
not born again.... no root

their hearts were not transformed but rejected the seed
they would reject Him the moment they hear of the truth
____________

16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;

17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.

again no root... not born again
no enduring faith

trials and tribulations were enough to prove they did not have a saving faith
______________

18 And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,

19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.

no saving faith... they turn from the knowledge of God to jump back into a life of living in and justifying sin and worldly pleasures instead of accepting they are wicked and need Him

(like the reprobate)
​

never born again

Romans 1
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

____________



20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.


theeeese are born again sons/daughters of God
Hebrews 10:39
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

and unlike demons who know of Him but have no faith IN Him

there is fruit due to being rooted IN Him

(born again by grace through faith.... not works)

1 peter


3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:

7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

we are those who no doubt continue in the faith

1 john 2
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
not those who fall away into unbelief






(posted this in another thread while back.... it applies here too... we are saved by grace through faith not of works.... when we are born again we are rooted IN Christ... and we are those who were called AND chosen.... not the reprobate... not those who dont believe... not those who believe in a false gospel.... we are saved already and we are those who He will in no wise cast out)


and endo

we arent saved after we produce fruit


or works


fruit is a result of being rooted in Christ

plain and simple

 

[benhur]

Ok here is the work needed to be saved.

1.) breath in.
2.) start breathing out.
3.) move your lips.
4.) make out the words "forgive me for my sins, Jesus i submite my life to you" or something like that.*

*you do have to believe it in your heart.

Ok, so this is the work that gives you automatic salvation.

Let's put it to the test: The next day after you have asked Jesus to forgive you of your sins, and that you will submit your life to him (and you believe this in your heart), you go to a porn movie, you steal a candy bar from your local store, and you tell your spouse you want out.

And then that night, you kneel down to pray, and thank Jesus for his automatic saving grace, that forgives you of your sins that day and you are happy to be reconciled to God always, and that you look forward to being with him in heaven.

Is that how it works?

If so, why do we need to read and study every day, 27 books in the NT, to help us know how to live in faith, day to day with God really in our lives? Your saving process took less that 1/16 of a page, it took me 5 seconds to read it and comprehend it.

 

[Magenta]

amen brother

i place all my hope in Him

Amen brother from me, too

Maybe I should pluralize it Amen, brothers!