Not By Works

posthuman · May 12, 2018

Jesus didn't stop with "it is hard" -- His disciples did, saying "who then can be saved?"

Jesus continued, what is impossible with man is possible with God. don't leave that out.

& as i've pressed: he was grieved. why?

suppose i tell you you've got to give away your house in order to win a prize?
if you don't believe me are you going to be sad?
if you love your house or fear poverty but you have no intention of becoming either poor or homeless, are you going to be sad?

i realize that 99% of you have heard 99% of your lives, this story means do not love money or you'll go to hell, therefore put your money in the offering plate the ushers are bringing to you now.
and that it's not easy to look at it in any other way, especially after probably 60 years in your case of hearing it presented in only one way. but that one way it's just about always presented adds a whole lot of accusation and condemnation that simply is not in the text.

the church typically teaches only the first half of the text, throws in condemnation that's really not present in the Bible, and then asks for your money. it ain't easy to unlearn.

TruthTalk · May 12, 2018

posthuman said:

Jesus didn't stop with "it is hard" -- His disciples did, saying "who then can be saved?"

Jesus continued, what is impossible with man is possible with God. don't leave that out.

& as i've pressed: he was grieved. why?

suppose i tell you you've got to give away your house in order to win a prize?
if you don't believe me are you going to be sad?
if you love your house or fear poverty but you have no intention of becoming either poor or homeless, are you going to be sad?

i realize that 99% of you have heard 99% of your lives, this story means do not love money or you'll go to hell, therefore put your money in the offering plate the ushers are bringing to you now.
and that it's not easy to look at it in any other way, especially after probably 60 years in your case of hearing it presented in only one way. but that one way it's just about always presented adds a whole lot of accusation and condemnation that simply is not in the text.

the church typically teaches only the first half of the text, throws in condemnation that's really not present in the Bible, and then asks for your money. it ain't easy to unlearn.

Okay but saying, then, "who can be saved", is a general statement, Jesus is posing his question to "all" people, he is not specifically referring to the rich young ruler.

posthuman · May 12, 2018

what's really ironic is that in John 8, Studydude swears up and down that this woman caught in adultery was 100% repentant and went on to live 100% righteously obedient. but there, we aren't told a single thing about her other than that she was 100% guilty. she is not described in any way at all, and the only thing we hear from her is that she states the obvious fact "no one" when Jesus asks her if any of her accusers are still around.

to Studydude, she's a saint.

and John 8 is very likely a later addition to the text - but the rich young man is in 3 gospels.

so he praises a woman who is dragged before Jesus by her lawful accusers in a section of text that might be extra-Biblical.
but here's a man who obviously has faith that eternal life is in the Son, and he comes to Him looking for it, about whom the scripture specifically says "Jesus loved" and about whom Jesus expressly remarks "all things are possible with God"

this man, to Studydude, deserves nothing but hellfire.

weird, right?
and adding to the text in both cases what is not written there.

VCO · May 12, 2018

VCO said:

I disagree that it seperates Christians from Heretics. The Point I was trying to make, their are MORE of the Psuedo-Christians that think they believe every word of the Apostles Creed, and NOT ONE OF THEM ARE SAVED. I am not saying you are not BORN AGAIN, I would have to see the fruit after a couple years to determine that. I was ONE OF THEM, THINKING I WAS SAVED because I said and believed in my HEAD, the Apostles Creed, and took up space on a Pew. NONE OF IT SAVED ME, only when I out of LOVE FOR HIM, I surrendered to JESUS CHRIST as LORD, and genuinely repented of my sins, mourning all the while, DID HE PERSONALLY SAVE ME. AND I disagree with what you claim is a "MUST BELIEVE", to be saved. It is a an inner, personal, relationship, from the HEART {NOT THE HEAD} that JESUS is in me, and I am in HIS spiritual BODY, that equals Born Again. I know, I STANDING in the Doorway of Hades/Hell, UNSAVED, and I had Believed in my HEAD that every statement in the APOSTLES CREED were true, and thought that SAVED ME. USING the YARDSTICK of the Apostles Creed, IS THE WRONG YARDSTICK

HERE IS THE SECRET:

Matthew 7:23 (HCSB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’

That is that inner, personal, LOVE relationship with JESUS CHRIST as your personal LORD.

THE SAME IS TRUE HERE:

Matthew 25:11-12 (HCSB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] “Later the rest of the virgins also came and said, ‘Master, master, open up for us!’
[SUP]12 [/SUP] “But he replied, ‘I assure you: I do not know you!’

AGAIN it NOT KNOWING HIM IN THAT INNER, PERSONAL, LOVE Relationship with JESUS AS LORD, THAT IS THE NARROW GATE THAT MOST MISS. You HAVE TO COME THRU THE CORRECT GATE, to ENTER INTO HEAVEN.

John 1:12-13 (HCSB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] But to all who did receive Him, He gave them the right to be children of God, to those who believe in His name,
[SUP]13 [/SUP] who were born, not of blood, or of the will of the flesh, or of the will of man, but of God.

RECEIVE HIM AS WHAT THOUGH?:

Colossians 2:6 (NIV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in him,

Where does that KIND OF LOVE comes from:

Romans 5:5-8 (HCSB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] This hope will not disappoint ⌊us⌋, because God’s love has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] For while we were still helpless, at the appointed moment, Christ died for the ungodly.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] For rarely will someone die for a just person—though for a good person perhaps someone might even dare to die.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But God proves His own love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us!

Romans 10:9 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] that if you confess {NOT JUST PROFESS THAT JESUS IS THE LORD, I HAS TO BE TRUE ABOUT YOURSELF BEFORE IT IS CONSIDERED A CONFESSION} with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

John 3:5-7 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
[SUP]7[/SUP]"Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

NONE OF THAT IS IN THE APOSTLES CREED.

Wow, I make more mistakes/typos after Mid-Night, than any other time. From the BOTTOM of my opening Paragraph, for lines up, it should read: I know, I WAS STANDING in the Doorway of Hades/Hell, UNSAVED,

Statement Just After Matthew 25:11-12 (HCSB) should read: AGAIN IT IS NOT KNOWING HIM IN THAT INNER, PERSONAL, LOVE Relationship with JESUS AS LORD, THAT IS THE NARROW GATE THAT MOST MISS. You HAVE TO COME THRU THE CORRECT GATE, to ENTER INTO HEAVEN.

Statement in Rom.10:9 (NASB), just after the WORD confess, should read: {NOT JUST PROFESS THAT JESUS IS THE LORD, It HAS TO BE TRUE ABOUT YOURSELF, BEFORE IT IS CONSIDERED A CONFESSION}

posthuman · May 12, 2018

TruthTalk said:

He's talking about the salvation & the rich, they're talking about the rich & salvation, and it's literally seconds after a man specifically called rich finishes a conversation with Him about salvation.

how much do you think the subject has really changed lol

wanderer6059 · May 12, 2018

Ok here is the work needed to be saved.

1.) breath in.
2.) start breathing out.
3.) move your lips.
4.) make out the words "forgive me for my sins, Jesus i submite my life to you" or something like that.*

*you do have to believe it in your heart.

TruthTalk · May 12, 2018

posthuman said:

He walked away sad because he had much property, I think your sympathy for the man is noble but your reading into this text way more than what is revealed, the man condemned himself by unbelief.

John3:36
"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on them."

posthuman · May 12, 2018

look,

we do not judge men's hearts. Christ does.

((at least, we disobey Him if we think to judge))

this man, if i believe he cannot have been saved, then i put myself in the camp of the unbelief in the disciples.
if i believe this man is found in Christ, i put myself in the 'possible with God' camp.

i desire to be found in Christ. that is the 'possible' and the 'mercy' camp, not the 'impossible' and the 'condemnation & accusation' camp.

here, that happens to be the the hugely unpopular and absolutely-untraditional view that this man who came to Jesus looking for eternal life, was able to find it. i know it's not what you're going to hear at church tomorrow. we're all more likely to hear that he's an example for why you'd better put your money in the plate as it's passed, or else!

so we will not know until that day we meet Him in the air -- then we can look for this man and see what became of him for certain. meanwhile i will love mercy, and i will hold hope for this man's soul. the text supports it. showing y'all how it does is all i can do; i'm not going to keep going on about it. it's enough you all understand by now what and why i am thinking this, and God Himself will teach the truth to all of our hearts, even mine, in His time.

posthuman · May 12, 2018

TruthTalk said:

why would having much property make him sad?

was he sad about having much property before he talked to Jesus?

if his attitude about his possessions changed as a result of the conversation he had, this logically indicates acceptance, rather than rejection, of the Lord's words to him. belief, not unbelief

TruthTalk · May 12, 2018

posthuman said:

look,

we do not judge men's hearts. Christ does.

((at least, we disobey Him if we think to judge))

this man, if i believe he cannot have been saved, then i put myself in the camp of the unbelief in the disciples.
if i believe this man is found in Christ, i put myself in the 'possible with God' camp.

i desire to be found in Christ. that is the 'possible' and the 'mercy' camp, not the 'impossible' and the 'condemnation & accusation' camp.

here, that happens to be the the hugely unpopular and absolutely-untraditional view that this man who came to Jesus looking for eternal life, was able to find it. i know it's not what you're going to hear at church tomorrow. we're all more likely to hear that he's an example for why you'd better put your money in the plate as it's passed, or else!

so we will not know until that day we meet Him in the air -- then we can look for this man and see what became of him for certain. meanwhile i will love mercy, and i will hold hope for this man's soul. the text supports it. showing y'all how it does is all i can do; i'm not going to keep going on about it. it's enough you all understand by now what and why i am thinking this, and God Himself will teach the truth to all of our hearts, even mine, in His time.

I agree with this statement and I do really hope this man was saved at some later point in his life

"so we will not know until that day we meet Him in the air"

posthuman · May 12, 2018

TruthTalk said:

when i was a kid and i first read this, i wondered if it might be Saul of Tarsus

i guess i've always been hopeful, though i'd never call myself optimist haha

TruthTalk · May 12, 2018

posthuman said:

It was the thought of "loosing" his property to follow Jesus that grieved him. The much property he owned did not grieve him.

TruthTalk · May 12, 2018

posthuman said:

Yep me too and my middle name is Paul, haha!

UnderGrace · May 12, 2018

Jumping in a bit, but someone once told me that the rich man was asking the wrong question and that is why he received that answer from Jesus.

Matthew19:20-24
20) The young man *said to Him, “All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?”

His focus was on himself and saving himself, so Jesus "upped the ante" so to speak and placed the focus even more on the rich mans works, a place where the rich man would not want to go.

This makes me wonder what should have the rich man asked of Jesus?

TruthTalk said:

TruthTalk · May 12, 2018

UnderGrace said:

Very good point UnderGrace, I think you are correct because Jesus new this mans heart just as he knows our hearts today.

UnderGrace · May 12, 2018

Amen, and who better to know our hearts, there is no other who is more trustworthy and reliable.

TruthTalk said:

posthuman · May 12, 2018

Studyman said:

yes, this is important to look at

did Jesus really tell him he must do works to go to heaven?
He said, "if you want to be perfect"

we have here a man who had works, who knew they weren't enough to inherit eternal life.
we have here an instruction from the Messiah to do something beyond the works of the Law.

then we have Jesus telling His amazed disciples that no one who gives up things on earth for His sake will fail to receive a reward in heaven.

another interesting question to me, is which is the good work here that earns a heavenly reward? selling the possessions or giving to the poor? both? is it even a distinction we should be trying to make

or is it the belief that leads to the earthly works?
still in this context, He says many first will be last, and the last will be first. is that about works or about belief?
if i believe but fail to do the works, or do little of them, am i first or last?
if i do many works but lack belief, am i first or last?

yet 'last in the kingdom' or 'least' in the kingdom is still 'in the kingdom' -- is 'rewards' eternal life?
again, Jesus says give away all you have to the poor and you'll have treasure in heaven. is that about rewards in heaven or about entering heaven in the first place? is that treasure 'salvation' and eternal life?
is Jesus telling him how to enter the kingdom or how to receive rewards when he enters?

posthuman · May 12, 2018

UnderGrace said:

yes, just as Jesus cuts to the heart of what he says when he first approaches Him, saying 'good teacher'
Jesus uses this statement to declare to the man that He is God -- and He doesn't really rebuke the man, but teach him that he's said more than he knows he's said

TruthTalk · May 12, 2018

UnderGrace said:

Amen and one more point, the words we speak also will reveal what is in our hearts as did this man. And yes the bible say's Jesus "new all men"

John2:24
"But Jesus, on His part, was not entrusting Himself to them, for He knew all men,"

posthuman · May 12, 2018

TruthTalk said:

aye, and my point is that if he altogether rejected what Jesus told him, the thought of losing all that stuff wouldn't be on his mind, grieving him

Not By Works

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