Not By Works
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You said the following.....and there is only ONE logical conclusion if you DISAGREE that righteous WORKS have zero to do with salvation....this is not a multiple choice question...you either believe that they have nothing to do with salvation or they DO....so...if you disagree that they have ZERO to do with salvation then by your own words you think they DO have to do with salvation.....right or wrong?
I think that there are more (including myself) who disagree with the statement (conclusion) that"our righteous works have ZERO to do with salvation."
I think that there are more (including myself) who disagree with the statement (conclusion) that"our righteous works have ZERO to do with salvation."
You are so utterly mistaken as to what constitutes a broken man or woman before God. It is not sins. Sins we may be sorrowful about, but brokenness comes from seeing Jesus in a way that breaks rebellion. For we all are rebellious and carnal, but only revelation coming from Holy Spirits work will eradicate this within. This is a work that goes deeper into ones soul. Not Spirit, but our soul.
You who are so jugemental, have much yet to experience. I don't say this with anything but sympathy.
The scripture about counseling to buy gold tried in the fire comes to mind.
You who are so jugemental, have much yet to experience. I don't say this with anything but sympathy.
The scripture about counseling to buy gold tried in the fire comes to mind.
Yes, I believe that works have something to do with salvation.
As the grace of my loving Father works in my heart, it creates faith (which is his work, not mine). This faith is my belief in the blood atonement of Jesus Christ. Now I am saved, which salvation is not just a rescue from eternal death sometime in the future, but it is also a salvation right now from slavery to sin. As I believe in the Father through the Son, the Holy Spirit does a work in my heart which allows the Father to make me his workmanship - all the "righteous works" done in me are 100% his doing - not mine. Praise the Lord!
To me the previous paragraph means that works "have something to do" with salvation.
"Something to do with" means something very, very different than that I am saved because of or through my works.
As the grace of my loving Father works in my heart, it creates faith (which is his work, not mine). This faith is my belief in the blood atonement of Jesus Christ. Now I am saved, which salvation is not just a rescue from eternal death sometime in the future, but it is also a salvation right now from slavery to sin. As I believe in the Father through the Son, the Holy Spirit does a work in my heart which allows the Father to make me his workmanship - all the "righteous works" done in me are 100% his doing - not mine. Praise the Lord!
To me the previous paragraph means that works "have something to do" with salvation.
"Something to do with" means something very, very different than that I am saved because of or through my works.
false brethren according to Paul is found in Galatians.
3 1 You stupid Galatians! Who has put you under a spell? Before your very eyes Yeshua the Messiah was clearly portrayed as having been put to death as a criminal!
2 I want to know from you just this one thing: did you receive the Spirit by legalistic observance of Torah commands or by trusting in what you heard and being faithful to it?
3 Are you that stupid? Having begun with the Spirit’s power, do you think you can reach the goal under your own power?
Holy Spirit is the witness that we belong to Jesus. Members of His body. One with Him.
Act 20:28 Pay attention to yourselves and to the entire flock over which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers to be shepherds of God's church, which he acquired with his own blood.
Act 20:29 I know that when I'm gone savage wolves will come among you and not spare the flock.
Act 20:30 Indeed, some of your own men will arise and distort the truth in order to lure the disciples into following them.
Act 20:31 So be alert! Remember that for three years, night and day, I never stopped tearfully warning each of you.
Act 20:32 "I am now entrusting you to God and to the message of his grace, which is able to build you up and secure for you an inheritance among all who are sanctified.
Grace- unmerited favor of receiving the gift of Holy Spirit, the influence of God within our heart, manifesting in reflection of Him in our life.
laws are so weak in any ability to do anything but control. Like jail.
3 1 You stupid Galatians! Who has put you under a spell? Before your very eyes Yeshua the Messiah was clearly portrayed as having been put to death as a criminal!
2 I want to know from you just this one thing: did you receive the Spirit by legalistic observance of Torah commands or by trusting in what you heard and being faithful to it?
3 Are you that stupid? Having begun with the Spirit’s power, do you think you can reach the goal under your own power?
Holy Spirit is the witness that we belong to Jesus. Members of His body. One with Him.
Act 20:28 Pay attention to yourselves and to the entire flock over which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers to be shepherds of God's church, which he acquired with his own blood.
Act 20:29 I know that when I'm gone savage wolves will come among you and not spare the flock.
Act 20:30 Indeed, some of your own men will arise and distort the truth in order to lure the disciples into following them.
Act 20:31 So be alert! Remember that for three years, night and day, I never stopped tearfully warning each of you.
Act 20:32 "I am now entrusting you to God and to the message of his grace, which is able to build you up and secure for you an inheritance among all who are sanctified.
Grace- unmerited favor of receiving the gift of Holy Spirit, the influence of God within our heart, manifesting in reflection of Him in our life.
laws are so weak in any ability to do anything but control. Like jail.
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Psalm 37:1-5, “Do not fret because of evil-doers, Do not be envious of the workers of unrighteousness. For they soon wither like grass, And fade like green plants. Trust in יהוה[FONT=Times New Roman, serif], and do right; Dwell in the earth, and feed on faithfulness. And delight yourself in [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], And let Him give you the desires of your heart. Commit your way to [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[FONT=Times New Roman, serif], And trust in Him, and He does it.”[/FONT][/FONT]
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1 John 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”
John/Yahanan 15:5-16, "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, produces much fruit; but without Me, you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away like a branch, and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and letting My words; abide in you, you will ask what you will, and it will be done for you. In this is My Father glorified: when you produce much fruit; and in this way you become My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, so have I loved you; continue in My love. If you keep My Commands, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's Commands, and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you, that My joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be complete. This is My Command: Love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this: that one would lay down his life on behalf of his brothers. You are My brothers, if you do whatever I command you."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Psalm 37:1-5, “Do not fret because of evil-doers, Do not be envious of the workers of unrighteousness. For they soon wither like grass, And fade like green plants. Trust in יהוה[FONT=Times New Roman, serif], and do right; Dwell in the earth, and feed on faithfulness. And delight yourself in [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], And let Him give you the desires of your heart. Commit your way to [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[FONT=Times New Roman, serif], And trust in Him, and He does it.”[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
1 John 3:24, “And the one guarding His commands stays in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He stays in us, by the Spirit which He gave us.”
John/Yahanan 15:5-16, "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, produces much fruit; but without Me, you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away like a branch, and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and letting My words; abide in you, you will ask what you will, and it will be done for you. In this is My Father glorified: when you produce much fruit; and in this way you become My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, so have I loved you; continue in My love. If you keep My Commands, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's Commands, and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you, that My joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be complete. This is My Command: Love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this: that one would lay down his life on behalf of his brothers. You are My brothers, if you do whatever I command you."[/FONT]
2 1 Then after fourteen years I again went up to Yerushalayim, this time with Bar-Nabba; and I took with me Titus.
2 I went up in obedience to a revelation, and I explained to them the Good News as I proclaim it among the Gentiles —but privately, to the acknowledged leaders. I did this out of concern that my current or previous work might have been in vain.
3 But they didn’t force my Gentile companion Titus to undergo b’rit-milah.
4Indeed, the question came up only because some men who pretended to be brothers had been sneaked in —they came in surreptitiously to spy out the freedom we have in the Messiah Yeshua, so that they might enslave us.
5 Not even for a minute did we give in to them, so that the truth of the Good News might be preserved for you.
6 Moreover, those who were the acknowledged leaders —what they were makes no difference to me; God does not judge by outward appearances —these leaders added nothing to me.
7God does not judge by outward appearances —these leaders added nothing to me.
7 On the contrary, they saw that I had been entrusted with the Good News for the Uncircumcised, just as Kefa had been for the Circumcised;
Faith in and of Jesus, with the power of Holy Spirit working. The witness.
2 I went up in obedience to a revelation, and I explained to them the Good News as I proclaim it among the Gentiles —but privately, to the acknowledged leaders. I did this out of concern that my current or previous work might have been in vain.
3 But they didn’t force my Gentile companion Titus to undergo b’rit-milah.
4Indeed, the question came up only because some men who pretended to be brothers had been sneaked in —they came in surreptitiously to spy out the freedom we have in the Messiah Yeshua, so that they might enslave us.
5 Not even for a minute did we give in to them, so that the truth of the Good News might be preserved for you.
6 Moreover, those who were the acknowledged leaders —what they were makes no difference to me; God does not judge by outward appearances —these leaders added nothing to me.
7God does not judge by outward appearances —these leaders added nothing to me.
7 On the contrary, they saw that I had been entrusted with the Good News for the Uncircumcised, just as Kefa had been for the Circumcised;
Faith in and of Jesus, with the power of Holy Spirit working. The witness.
That is such a cop-out. If works play any part in our salvation, then by what you've said, God judges people differently by scale. As if God is in heaven saying "Well, just 6 more good works will characterize Ralph as a true believer!"
And as far as "helping the church" - is that the measure? Must our good works help the church exclusively?
You just keep adding on conditions, don't you?
Ralph, when it says "God will not forget your work" the author is talking about the rewards we will receive for doing them. The author is encouraging believers not to be lazy. The very fact in verse 12 (which you failed to post) about not becoming lazy is proof one CAN become lazy and not do works. And also, nowhere does it say if one becomes lazy, they'll lose their salvation or it's proof they never had it.
Are you ever impure? Envious? Jealous? Have outbursts of anger? Dispute with anyone?
People like you love to throw sins in people's faces, when you are just as guilty of sinning.
And btw, just what sins are attributed to the believer? How many haven't been forgiven? Are future sins under the blood?
Your whole argument breaks down on the fact that believers have no sins to answer for. NONE. They are GONE FOREVER.
Do you love God with all your heart, soul, and strength?
If you add even ONE THING to the gospel, you negate it as a gift. You just can't get that simple fact through your head. When you add a condition, you've thrown the whole thing out the window. It's that mentality that keeps so many people in bondage - fearful that they haven't done enough to "prove" themselves, or secretly terrified that they're not truly saved.
It is sickening and an abuse of the gospel.
And as far as "helping the church" - is that the measure? Must our good works help the church exclusively?
You just keep adding on conditions, don't you?
Ralph, when it says "God will not forget your work" the author is talking about the rewards we will receive for doing them. The author is encouraging believers not to be lazy. The very fact in verse 12 (which you failed to post) about not becoming lazy is proof one CAN become lazy and not do works. And also, nowhere does it say if one becomes lazy, they'll lose their salvation or it's proof they never had it.
Are you ever impure? Envious? Jealous? Have outbursts of anger? Dispute with anyone?
People like you love to throw sins in people's faces, when you are just as guilty of sinning.
And btw, just what sins are attributed to the believer? How many haven't been forgiven? Are future sins under the blood?
Your whole argument breaks down on the fact that believers have no sins to answer for. NONE. They are GONE FOREVER.
Do you love God with all your heart, soul, and strength?
If you add even ONE THING to the gospel, you negate it as a gift. You just can't get that simple fact through your head. When you add a condition, you've thrown the whole thing out the window. It's that mentality that keeps so many people in bondage - fearful that they haven't done enough to "prove" themselves, or secretly terrified that they're not truly saved.
It is sickening and an abuse of the gospel.
New International Version 1984 Romans 2:1-4 God’s Righteous Judgment You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness leads you toward repentance?
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1 John 5. I write these things so you may KNOW YOU HAVE eternal life. And By this knowledge, continue to believe in his name.
rom 10. WHoever calls on the name of the lord will be saved (I did that almost 40 years ago)
John 3. Whoever believes in him has eternal life. And is not condemned. (I have faiht in Christ)
John 6.. Never hunger, never thirst,. Never die, Live forever. Etc etc.
eph 1. Given an inheritance which is unbreakable. Sealed but the HS
How many more proofs do I need?
rom 10. WHoever calls on the name of the lord will be saved (I did that almost 40 years ago)
John 3. Whoever believes in him has eternal life. And is not condemned. (I have faiht in Christ)
John 6.. Never hunger, never thirst,. Never die, Live forever. Etc etc.
eph 1. Given an inheritance which is unbreakable. Sealed but the HS
How many more proofs do I need?