Not By Works

[mailmandan]

Maybe those who insist ex-believers get to keep the promises of God can help you.
You sound Calvy, too. You should be coming down on these people who say ex-believers are still saved. Calvy says if you go back to unbelief you were never really saved to begin with. H-grace says you were not only saved, but still are! Big difference of doctrine, but I do not see Calvy people challenging their beliefs, just amening them.

I see "alleged" ex-believers as those whose faith was never firmly rooted and established from the start, like those in 1 John 2:19 who went out from us, but were never of us. Genuine saving faith in Christ continues and is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I respect the argument. At least you don't believe that ex-believers still have eternal life. Now I wish you just tell the others in this thread that.

I'm neither Calvy or Armin. It's impossible to isolate what I believe in either camp. Especially since they seem to mean different things to different people. The bottom line is, I believe only believers have the promises of God. But I also believe that one can stop believing. That's probably the only difference between us. We both agree (I think) that ex-believers do not get to keep the promises. You agree because there's no such thing as an ex-believer. Like I say, I respect that argument. It's reasonable. I just don't necessarily agree with it.

who says a person who had true saving faith, yet now denies christ and does not believe has eternal life?

I am glad your not thinking about a camp. I think that distorts our view.

In a way, I think you could say we agree, If a person denies Christ, and says they do not even believe in him, they are not saved.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. ​*ALL of them. Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress it's certainty.

I think the issue we are fighting these isms of people we align ourself with, And thus feel the need to attack everythign they stand for.

OSAS as a doctrine, seems calvanistic, but the term is a biblical one
Predestination is a biblical topic. Calvin seems to have distorted it.

If we are against calvin, we will never look to anything he or they believe, we will attack it all. Sadly, because of this, we will miss so many very important truths. And may even miss eternal life.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Did Demas have saving faith? He forsook Paul because he loved the world. I say yes, Demas was a saved man. A believer can walk away from his faith, but God will not walk away from that man who once put his trust in the Savior.

2 Timothy 4:10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.

It says he lost faith in paul not God,, I would not read anything into this,, We do not know what demus did later. Unless philemon was written after these words, in which Demus seems to be back in fellowship

 

[UnderGrace]

No such thing as an ex-believer.

You make ongoing belief a debt owed to God and thereby saying the work of God, a singular event is insufficient to save.

Don't tell me.
Tell everyone in this thread who says the ex-believer is still saved.

 

[Meggido]

Let's stop you right here.
Calvinism says the believer can never lose his salvation because the believer can never stop believing, and that the believer will always have works to accompany his salvation or else he was never saved to begin with. So that rules you out as being of a Calvinistic persuasion.

Now, according to this verse below, are people saved who don't hold fast the word?

1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB
...you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you...

Calvinists say true believers always hold fast the word and, therefore, are always saved. But your quote above indicates that you are not Calvinist, so you don't interpret the verse that way. So you have no other choice but to interpret the verse as meaning exactly what it says, "you are saved, IF YOU HOLD FAST THE WORD". But you believe that if you no longer hold fast the word in belief you're still saved, right? If so, that completely contradicts what Paul plainly said.

You are pretexting and parsing a scripture to fit your doctrine...

Lets be honest with 1 Cor 15.2 shall we....


you copied the below twice and say you can lose salvation

1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB
...you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you...


Here is whole scripture and how interesting that you left off the part that completely refutes your doctrine....

1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB
Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, [SUP]2 [/SUP]by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

Care to take another stab at this or are you just going to continue splashing people with water and telling them it is rain.?

 

[Meggido]

Do you mean that some don't bother to witness to others, because of their view on predestination?

absolutely.....we see it all the time...especially among those who believe, preach and teach double predestination.

 

[Meggido]

Interesting. Did not know that. I also heard baptists teach conditional security?? A while ago I watched on youtube a lady that had some dream and was claiming that she saw born again believers in hell, that they had sinned and had not been forgiven of those sins before they died, and it was an urgent warning to the church! Not sure if this was just her, or whether the baptist churches actually teach this?


But would say that when one is convicted of their sins, and they become a new creature in Christ, that then they know what they were saved from. Those who are currently without truth don't seek to witness to others, because they don't have the truth to begin with.

With catholicism, all I've seen is when a catholic wants to marry and the fiance is expected to convert so that their baby will be raised catholic. Or maybe I'm wrong, that their fiance can be of a different religion so long as their baby is raised in the RCC?

Sorry most baptists teach OSAS and some are very Calvinist and very legalistic, most notable are the Independent Fundamental Baptists, Bible Believers, Missionary Baptists and Ruckmanite Bible Believer Baptists

 

[mailmandan]

Here is whole scripture and how interesting that you left off the part that completely refutes your doctrine....

1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB
Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, [SUP]2 [/SUP]by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

Care to take another stab at this or are you just going to continue splashing people with water and telling them it is rain.?

To believe in vain is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose. If, as some are saying in Corinth, there is no resurrection, then faith is vain and worthless (vs. 14). Salvation is evidenced by continuing in the word, not the cause. The people who failed to hold fast to the word (the gospel) that Paul preached in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, demonstrated that they "believed in vain" (did not truly believe).

In Matthew 6:7, we read - And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words. In Matthew 15:9, we read - And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men."

 

[Meggido]

The seed is the gospel message in the parable of the shower....it can be received or rejected. However when it finds good soil the first fruit it produces is a saving faith and confession from the heart. Than God sends His Holy spirit to seal His born again children. Having heard the gospel does not mean the person either accepts or has a saving faith in Jesus.

The only condition of salvation is faith in Jesus and what He has done for us. That faith will lead us to bear much fruit and do good works, but those things are NOT the root...Jesus is our root and our foundation.

Here, let me turn over an apple cart and cause major havoc on peoples traditions and doctrines....

The seed is not "THE GOSPEL" or the "THE BIBLE"....Jesus said the seed was the word, not think about this for a nano-second instead of relying on tradition and doctrine...the Gospel is the good news of Jesus' death, burial and resurrection, the Gospel was not yet finalized when Jesus said this.......the Bible was not even put together when Jesus said this.....

John 1.1, 14-17
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. [SUP]15 [/SUP]John *testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’” [SUP]16 [/SUP]For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.

The seed is none other than the "WORD"......JESUS CHRIST himself....the sower of Jesus Christ are you and I...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Sorry most baptists teach OSAS and some are very Calvinist and very legalistic, most notable are the Independent Fundamental Baptists, Bible Believers, Missionary Baptists and Ruckmanite Bible Believer Baptists

I belonged to GARBC (I was saved under this church) Independent fundamental, Its funny, I was told southern baptists were very legalistic, and taught salvation could be lost, yet when I met a few of them after I entered the military, I found this ot not be true.

Hard to know who to believe, unless you actually go to that church.. That is what I have been trying to do for about 15 years now, Because I found so much of what I was taught about others is not true.

 

[BillG]

Hi PJ

You posted the following.

Absurdity of forgiveness of recurring sin

If sin is just superficial dirt that can be washed off, then all are clean, as long as they have
a shower. But Jesus implies, one sin that is caught into ones life, means the whole is thrown
into hell. Jesus goes deeper saying it is the heart that is impure and needs cleansing, and that
once cleansed the people of God are holy, pure and blameless.

I am confused with "One sin that is caught into ones life, means the whole is thrown into hell"
What do you mean by that?

 

[PeterJens]

Hi PJ

You posted the following.

Absurdity of forgiveness of recurring sin

If sin is just superficial dirt that can be washed off, then all are clean, as long as they have
a shower. But Jesus implies, one sin that is caught into ones life, means the whole is thrown
into hell. Jesus goes deeper saying it is the heart that is impure and needs cleansing, and that
once cleansed the people of God are holy, pure and blameless.

I am confused with "One sin that is caught into ones life, means the whole is thrown into hell"
What do you mean by that?

A sin is an action that breaks the commandments. Jesus put it in terms of ones eye causes
you to sin, it is better to lose an eye than the whole be thrown into hell.

Often people have one or two particular issues they fight with. The argument I am taking forward
is if one knows of sinful behaviour it is working things through to resolution.
So when you come down to our actual lives, it is this we are faced with and something that the
Lord empowers us to work through.

 

[BillG]

A sin is an action that breaks the commandments. Jesus put it in terms of ones eye causes
you to sin, it is better to lose an eye than the whole be thrown into hell.

Often people have one or two particular issues they fight with. The argument I am taking forward
is if one knows of sinful behaviour it is working things through to resolution.
So when you come down to our actual lives, it is this we are faced with and something that the
Lord empowers us to work through.

When is a particular issue resolved? We all have issues we fight with and thank God they are healed and can be healed.
But is someone has a particular issue that is never fully resolved and hate it but try their best are they as you say "The whole are going to hell?

Yes the Lord empowers us to work through but what if one dies before its fully worked through?

I am not asking you to say whether they are saved or not, only God knows that and knows the heart.

But what has confused me and why I asked the question is that I read you saying "One particular sin issue you don't overcome sends you to hell"

I may have got that wrong, if so please accept my apologies but I still ask you the same question

 

[JIMBO43]

but what if one dies before its fully worked through?

This use to be my excuse to carry on in sin.......are you convicted over having a smoke and drinking bear..?

i say if the lord place a glass of wine or two in your lap would you feel Guilty then...?

trouble is with sedements billy they can some times bring up emotional scars...

 

[JIMBO43]

Being jointed as one body doesn't mean we are married to one another....the bible says one husband and one wife is the way God designed it.....Adam and Eve....not multiple marriages.

the bible stateS that Jesus is the bride and we get married to him... SO THERE FOR WE ARE MARRIED TO THE CHURCH ...............




WHERE BY YOU CAN DIVORCE ...................END OF STORY SISTER........

 

[Meggido]

I belonged to GARBC (I was saved under this church) Independent fundamental, Its funny, I was told southern baptists were very legalistic, and taught salvation could be lost, yet when I met a few of them after I entered the military, I found this ot not be true.

Hard to know who to believe, unless you actually go to that church.. That is what I have been trying to do for about 15 years now, Because I found so much of what I was taught about others is not true.

We were with a very large and very well known IFB in KCMO when I was a kid.....we were told the same thing

 

[BillG]

This use to be my excuse to carry on in sin.......are you convicted over having a smoke and drinking bear..?

i say if the lord place a glass of wine or two in your lap would you feel Guilty then...?

trouble is with sedements billy they can some times bring up emotional scars...

Never drunk a bear but If ever I do I'll let you know.

Isaiah 55:1


1 “Ho! Everyone who thirsts,
Come to the waters;
And you who have no money,
Come, buy and eat.
Yes, come, buy wine and milk
Without money and without price.

Worry about your own conviction and not mine.
You are not respsonible for me and me not you.

You sill attack me for my honesty and assume I use it as an excuse to sin.
You don't know me, so stop assuming you do.

Start walking with agape my friend.
Then maybe as you said a few posts back "I would want to divorce some here and why not" you would be comitted to loving those is the church rather than intimating are worthless and useless and therefore better to cast them aside.

Maybe you should focus on your emotional scars that to be quite frank is so evident with your posts.
One day your nice and great to get along with and the next your nasty and vindictive.
One post your nice and the next vindictive.

Last night I said to a post where you finished help he kind sir.
I said I will if you will.

Then you come back with your post above.

Oh well never mind.
Par for the course.

 

[Ariel82]

Here, let me turn over an apple cart and cause major havoc on peoples traditions and doctrines....

The seed is not "THE GOSPEL" or the "THE BIBLE"....Jesus said the seed was the word, not think about this for a nano-second instead of relying on tradition and doctrine...the Gospel is the good news of Jesus' death, burial and resurrection, the Gospel was not yet finalized when Jesus said this.......the Bible was not even put together when Jesus said this.....

John 1.1, 14-17
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. [SUP]15 [/SUP]John *testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’” [SUP]16 [/SUP]For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.

The seed is none other than the "WORD"......JESUS CHRIST himself....the sower of Jesus Christ are you and I...

That isn't true because we do not "sow" Jesus seed into others lives.

Jesus tells us what the seed in this parable is...

Matthew 13
18 “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path.

 

[UnderGrace]

I have to think on this because I have not really thought on it... but I agree with you so much that Jesus could not have been talking about the gospel really since it had not been completed yet.

It makes so much sense to see the seed as the "Word"

When I began to read the bible more in sequence it made a lot more sense.

Thanks for sharing this, I am going to go back and read that section.

Here, let me turn over an apple cart and cause major havoc on peoples traditions and doctrines....

The seed is not "THE GOSPEL" or the "THE BIBLE"....Jesus said the seed was the word, not think about this for a nano-second instead of relying on tradition and doctrine...the Gospel is the good news of Jesus' death, burial and resurrection, the Gospel was not yet finalized when Jesus said this.......the Bible was not even put together when Jesus said this.....

John 1.1, 14-17
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. [SUP]15 [/SUP]John *testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’” [SUP]16 [/SUP]For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.

The seed is none other than the "WORD"......JESUS CHRIST himself....the sower of Jesus Christ are you and I...