Not By Works
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I exhibit behaviour, thank you for the observation. If I did not exhibit behaviour I would be dead.
You have the opportunity to identify with various positions of faith, and learn from brothers and
sisters of the past. Sounds like you do not respect any traditions. I truly respect Wesley and the
holiness movements. I respect the scribes who for centuries have brought us the scriptures and
for theologians who have taught us the meaning of some difficult scriptures.
You seem to want me to care about your approach, yet I do not know what it is. Is it sola scriptura
or something else?
You have the opportunity to identify with various positions of faith, and learn from brothers and
sisters of the past. Sounds like you do not respect any traditions. I truly respect Wesley and the
holiness movements. I respect the scribes who for centuries have brought us the scriptures and
for theologians who have taught us the meaning of some difficult scriptures.
You seem to want me to care about your approach, yet I do not know what it is. Is it sola scriptura
or something else?
let keep the word grace in place,
if you cannot interpret scripture correctly, who cares, what you have to say.
you will find it was the jewish converts to christian teachings, that were ranting and moaning, about a licence to sin.
and since you have no temple of stone, to follow the full law, so that would make it, impossible to follow fully , and you can not get jesus christ back down from heaven , to go back on the cross to die again, for the sins you that your repented of.
then your interpretation of scripture , and your logic is full of holes. strange thing context . repentance needs a law, and a new saviour, if your repenting, i will stick with the first saviour. thanks etc
if you cannot interpret scripture correctly, who cares, what you have to say.
you will find it was the jewish converts to christian teachings, that were ranting and moaning, about a licence to sin.
and since you have no temple of stone, to follow the full law, so that would make it, impossible to follow fully , and you can not get jesus christ back down from heaven , to go back on the cross to die again, for the sins you that your repented of.
then your interpretation of scripture , and your logic is full of holes. strange thing context . repentance needs a law, and a new saviour, if your repenting, i will stick with the first saviour. thanks etc
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The word for "turn" in Jude 1:4 means to "replace" or "in place of" or " to transpose"...people are replacing the grace of God for something else.
It does not mean that people are "turning" grace into lewdness as the KJV seems to look like it is saying and what others say that people are doing.
It has nothing to do with so-called grace/OSAS believers using grace as a license to sin which is constantly being accused of. Paul was slanderously accused of the very same thing when he taught the gospel of the grace of God in Christ.
Here are some scriptures where the exact same Greek word is used to see how it is used. You can readily see that the word means to transpose or to exchange from one place to another.
Acts 7:16 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] "From there they were removed to Shechem and laid in the tomb which Abraham had purchased for a sum of money from the sons of Hamor in Shechem.
Galatians 1:6 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Hebrews 11:5 (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Here is what the Greek word means:
"To transpose, put in another place and hence to transport, transfer"
Complete Word Study Dictionary, The - The Complete Word Study Dictionary – New Testament.
It does not mean that people are "turning" grace into lewdness as the KJV seems to look like it is saying and what others say that people are doing.
It has nothing to do with so-called grace/OSAS believers using grace as a license to sin which is constantly being accused of. Paul was slanderously accused of the very same thing when he taught the gospel of the grace of God in Christ.
Here are some scriptures where the exact same Greek word is used to see how it is used. You can readily see that the word means to transpose or to exchange from one place to another.
Acts 7:16 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] "From there they were removed to Shechem and laid in the tomb which Abraham had purchased for a sum of money from the sons of Hamor in Shechem.
Galatians 1:6 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Hebrews 11:5 (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Here is what the Greek word means:
"To transpose, put in another place and hence to transport, transfer"
Complete Word Study Dictionary, The - The Complete Word Study Dictionary – New Testament.
I exhibit behaviour, thank you for the observation. If I did not exhibit behaviour I would be dead.
You have the opportunity to identify with various positions of faith, and learn from brothers and
sisters of the past. Sounds like you do not respect any traditions. I truly respect Wesley and the
holiness movements. I respect the scribes who for centuries have brought us the scriptures and
for theologians who have taught us the meaning of some difficult scriptures.
You seem to want me to care about your approach, yet I do not know what it is. Is it sola scriptura
or something else?
You have the opportunity to identify with various positions of faith, and learn from brothers and
sisters of the past. Sounds like you do not respect any traditions. I truly respect Wesley and the
holiness movements. I respect the scribes who for centuries have brought us the scriptures and
for theologians who have taught us the meaning of some difficult scriptures.
You seem to want me to care about your approach, yet I do not know what it is. Is it sola scriptura
or something else?
and, yes I believe in Sola Scriptura.
you make no point,if you do not have context, to what you write, turn you computer off. so who told you,to conform to the ways of the world.
15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.
since a new covenant, is in place, when did i replace anything, you have free will, to pick and chose what you retain as being fact or fiction.
15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.
since a new covenant, is in place, when did i replace anything, you have free will, to pick and chose what you retain as being fact or fiction.
P
It is conditional. Conditional on you believing and continuing to believe:
1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB
1...you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you...
Just because the ex-believer doesn't continue to believe doesn't make eternal life any less eternal, no more than losing a winning lottery ticket makes it less valuable. It simply is no longer possessed by the one who lost it. That's all.
In the parable of the sower, it is the soil that 'held fast' the word of the gospel and brought it to fruition. Holding fast the seed, the word, of the gospel is signified by the fruit it bears. That's why work must be a part of a salvation experience--it validates the continuing presence of the seed (the requirement for being saved) that produced it.
The interesting thing is, when people are not saying that even unbelief can not forfeit eternal life, they say that genuine believers will have work attached to their faith, yet they refuse to acknowledge that makes works a necessary part of salvation. Apparently they are incapable of understanding works being necessary for salvation outside of those works earning salvation. But there is clearly a way that works are a necessary part of salvation without those works earning the salvation that produced them. Few seem to be able to see that, though.
1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB
1...you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you...
Just because the ex-believer doesn't continue to believe doesn't make eternal life any less eternal, no more than losing a winning lottery ticket makes it less valuable. It simply is no longer possessed by the one who lost it. That's all.
In the parable of the sower, it is the soil that 'held fast' the word of the gospel and brought it to fruition. Holding fast the seed, the word, of the gospel is signified by the fruit it bears. That's why work must be a part of a salvation experience--it validates the continuing presence of the seed (the requirement for being saved) that produced it.
The interesting thing is, when people are not saying that even unbelief can not forfeit eternal life, they say that genuine believers will have work attached to their faith, yet they refuse to acknowledge that makes works a necessary part of salvation. Apparently they are incapable of understanding works being necessary for salvation outside of those works earning salvation. But there is clearly a way that works are a necessary part of salvation without those works earning the salvation that produced them. Few seem to be able to see that, though.
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We have to keep 2 aspects in mind when interpreting scriptures on salvation.
Salvation manifests itself here in this earth and also for going to be with the Lord because we are in Christ - sealed by the Holy Spirit when we believed as Paul said in Eph. 1:13 ; 4:30.
Start shooting heroin in your arms today and you will NOT experience salvation - that is life and wholeness on this earth for very long.
Confuse the 2 and we will come up with all kinds of works-based salvationists views
I believe we have to differentiate between "going to heaven to be with the Lord " salvation and - "being saved from the things that can destroy us here while being on this earth."
There are different manifestations of salvation in Christ - one is going to be with the Lord - the other is concerning the things of this life on earth.
The promised land is a type of being in Christ now - it is not a type of heaven as there will be no giants to fight in heaven.
Moses did not get to rest in what God had already provided for the Israelites - but yet Moses is with God now.
The promised land is a type of living here on this earth by believing in the promises of God. Only Caleb and Joshua were the ones that got to experience the promises of God in the promised land because they believed in what God had said.
We can inherit now in this life some things that are of the kingdom of God because the kingdom of God is within us...however if we don't have our minds renewed to the truth in Christ ( which includes living by the Spirit within us ) - we can not experience the things of the kingdom that are available to us believers.
Scripture uses the same Greek word - " salvation, saved " = wholeness, preservation, keep safe, deliverance, make well - for both being saved from things in this life and for going to be with the Lord for eternity.
If we don't understand this difference we will continually be mis-applying scriptures that talk about "being saved here in this life from things" and "going to be with the Lord".
There is eternal salvation and there is manifestation of salvation from temporal things while on this earth. Confuse the two and we end up with a mixed up message of self-effort for going to heaven and only the blood of Jesus does that.
Jesus is either our Savior for going to be in heaven with Him or we are our own savior by helping Him. One is by grace through faith-righteousness - the other is works-righteousness.
Everyone is free to believe what they want and we can agree to disagree as well. Let's just rely on the Holy Spirit to reveal the things of Christ to us.
Let's teach and preach the love and grace of God in Christ so that Christians will have the proper nutrients to grow up in Him and experience His salvation here on this earth too - as well as for all of eternity.
Get the proper foundation down first which is Christ and His good news of the forgiveness of sins and then the warning scriptures will have their proper place.
Instead - works-based belief mindsets use them to beat the sheep up and they actually cause a mis-trust to our loving Father and Lord.
Salvation manifests itself here in this earth and also for going to be with the Lord because we are in Christ - sealed by the Holy Spirit when we believed as Paul said in Eph. 1:13 ; 4:30.
Start shooting heroin in your arms today and you will NOT experience salvation - that is life and wholeness on this earth for very long.
Confuse the 2 and we will come up with all kinds of works-based salvationists views
I believe we have to differentiate between "going to heaven to be with the Lord " salvation and - "being saved from the things that can destroy us here while being on this earth."
There are different manifestations of salvation in Christ - one is going to be with the Lord - the other is concerning the things of this life on earth.
The promised land is a type of being in Christ now - it is not a type of heaven as there will be no giants to fight in heaven.
Moses did not get to rest in what God had already provided for the Israelites - but yet Moses is with God now.
The promised land is a type of living here on this earth by believing in the promises of God. Only Caleb and Joshua were the ones that got to experience the promises of God in the promised land because they believed in what God had said.
We can inherit now in this life some things that are of the kingdom of God because the kingdom of God is within us...however if we don't have our minds renewed to the truth in Christ ( which includes living by the Spirit within us ) - we can not experience the things of the kingdom that are available to us believers.
Scripture uses the same Greek word - " salvation, saved " = wholeness, preservation, keep safe, deliverance, make well - for both being saved from things in this life and for going to be with the Lord for eternity.
If we don't understand this difference we will continually be mis-applying scriptures that talk about "being saved here in this life from things" and "going to be with the Lord".
There is eternal salvation and there is manifestation of salvation from temporal things while on this earth. Confuse the two and we end up with a mixed up message of self-effort for going to heaven and only the blood of Jesus does that.
Jesus is either our Savior for going to be in heaven with Him or we are our own savior by helping Him. One is by grace through faith-righteousness - the other is works-righteousness.
Everyone is free to believe what they want and we can agree to disagree as well. Let's just rely on the Holy Spirit to reveal the things of Christ to us.
Let's teach and preach the love and grace of God in Christ so that Christians will have the proper nutrients to grow up in Him and experience His salvation here on this earth too - as well as for all of eternity.
Get the proper foundation down first which is Christ and His good news of the forgiveness of sins and then the warning scriptures will have their proper place.
Instead - works-based belief mindsets use them to beat the sheep up and they actually cause a mis-trust to our loving Father and Lord.
A
God also said that Solomon's many wives lead him to the false worship of idols and other gods....so your point would be?
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1 Kings 11 ►
English Standard Version
Solomon Turns from the LORD
1Now King Solomon loved many foreign women, along with the daughter of Pharaoh: Moabite, Ammonite, Edomite, Sidonian, and Hittite women, 2from the nations concerning which the LORD had said to the people of Israel, “You shall not enter into marriage with them, neither shall they with you, for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods.” Solomon clung to these in love. 3He had 700 wives, who were princesses, and 300 concubines. And his wives turned away his heart. 4For when Solomon was old his wives turned away his heart after other gods, and his heart was not wholly true to the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father. 5For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites. 6So Solomon did what was evil in the sight of the LORD and did not wholly follow the LORD, as David his father had done. 7Then Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the abomination of Moab, and for Molech the abomination of the Ammonites, on the mountain east of Jerusalem. 8And so he did for all his foreign wives, who made offerings and sacrificed to their gods.
The LORD Raises Adversaries
9And the LORD was angry with Solomon, because his heart had turned away from the LORD, the God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice 10and had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods. But he did not keep what the LORD commanded. 11Therefore the LORD said to Solomon, “Since this has been your practice and you have not kept my covenant and my statutes that I have commanded you, I will surely tear the kingdom from you and will give it to your servant. 12Yet for the sake of David your father I will not do it in your days, but I will tear it out of the hand of your son. 13However, I will not tear away all the kingdom, but I will give one tribe to your son, for the sake of David my servant and for the sake of Jerusalem that I have chosen.”
****
1 Kings 11 ►
English Standard Version
Solomon Turns from the LORD
1Now King Solomon loved many foreign women, along with the daughter of Pharaoh: Moabite, Ammonite, Edomite, Sidonian, and Hittite women, 2from the nations concerning which the LORD had said to the people of Israel, “You shall not enter into marriage with them, neither shall they with you, for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods.” Solomon clung to these in love. 3He had 700 wives, who were princesses, and 300 concubines. And his wives turned away his heart. 4For when Solomon was old his wives turned away his heart after other gods, and his heart was not wholly true to the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father. 5For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites. 6So Solomon did what was evil in the sight of the LORD and did not wholly follow the LORD, as David his father had done. 7Then Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the abomination of Moab, and for Molech the abomination of the Ammonites, on the mountain east of Jerusalem. 8And so he did for all his foreign wives, who made offerings and sacrificed to their gods.
The LORD Raises Adversaries
9And the LORD was angry with Solomon, because his heart had turned away from the LORD, the God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice 10and had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods. But he did not keep what the LORD commanded. 11Therefore the LORD said to Solomon, “Since this has been your practice and you have not kept my covenant and my statutes that I have commanded you, I will surely tear the kingdom from you and will give it to your servant. 12Yet for the sake of David your father I will not do it in your days, but I will tear it out of the hand of your son. 13However, I will not tear away all the kingdom, but I will give one tribe to your son, for the sake of David my servant and for the sake of Jerusalem that I have chosen.”
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P
God supplies the faith, we do the believing.
God gives us the faith (the ability to know something is true--Hebrews 11:1) so we can then believe (trust) in what faith has revealed to us to be true.
John 6:28-219 NASB
they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God (which endures to eternal life-see context)?” 29Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”
Man's responsibility, his 'work', is to believe. God does not do our believing for us. That's our responsibility. And believing certainly is not a work of the damnable works gospel.
Paul contrasts this believing 'work' that one does to secure and keep salvation with doing righteous things of the law to secure and keep salvation. He said believing is the only thing that can make a person righteous and qualified for the kingdom. That is not a works gospel to have to do the 'work' of believing to be saved, and stay saved. He clearly contrasts the two in his teaching, not equates them. So it is not a works gospel to require believing and continued believing to be saved.
God gives us the faith (the ability to know something is true--Hebrews 11:1) so we can then believe (trust) in what faith has revealed to us to be true.
John 6:28-219 NASB
they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God (which endures to eternal life-see context)?” 29Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”
Man's responsibility, his 'work', is to believe. God does not do our believing for us. That's our responsibility. And believing certainly is not a work of the damnable works gospel.
Paul contrasts this believing 'work' that one does to secure and keep salvation with doing righteous things of the law to secure and keep salvation. He said believing is the only thing that can make a person righteous and qualified for the kingdom. That is not a works gospel to have to do the 'work' of believing to be saved, and stay saved. He clearly contrasts the two in his teaching, not equates them. So it is not a works gospel to require believing and continued believing to be saved.
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