Not By Works

[Katy-follower]

Amen and I fully agree....a child by birth will always be a child by birth.....especially when it is of INCORRUPTABLE seed and it is a work that CHRIST has began and has promised to finish........

Numerous times now over the last few months, the scripture that's been coming up in my mind is the one where God says "if you being evil know how to give good things to your children, then how much more will your Heavenly father"

It really makes you think. Because we are finite creations of an infinite God, and we cannot put an infinite God into a finite box.

There are cases where a finite father will break his promises and might even abandon his children, but God doesn't and He said He will never leave us or forsake us.

And while a finite father loves his children, how much more does God love His children?

 

[Katy-follower]

This observation is also noticed among many reformed denominations as well , especially Calvinism...

Do you mean that some don't bother to witness to others, because of their view on predestination?

 

[PeterJens]

Something profound happened to me last weekend.
I realised that we are Gods will and expression on earth.
To know His love is to then be able to give it life in yourself.

Simple words, that we dismiss, because we want something deeper.
But it is not the depth of the words that are profound, it is the shallowness
in our hearts, to which they have reached. So they skim off us and we go
searching for something more, not seeing it is there all the time, we did not
listen and let it dwell, dwell and dwell some more.

 

[Zmouth]

Numerous times now over the last few months, the scripture that's been coming up in my mind is the one where God says "if you being evil know how to give good things to your children, then how much more will your Heavenly father"

So an evil person knows how to give good gifts to their children?

I thought that every one that does evil hates the truth, neither will they seek the truth, unless their deeds should be reproved?

 

[Katy-follower]

I know alot of baptist churches which are the same way. It is not just catholic.

Interesting. Did not know that. I also heard baptists teach conditional security?? A while ago I watched on youtube a lady that had some dream and was claiming that she saw born again believers in hell, that they had sinned and had not been forgiven of those sins before they died, and it was an urgent warning to the church! Not sure if this was just her, or whether the baptist churches actually teach this?


But would say that when one is convicted of their sins, and they become a new creature in Christ, that then they know what they were saved from. Those who are currently without truth don't seek to witness to others, because they don't have the truth to begin with.

With catholicism, all I've seen is when a catholic wants to marry and the fiance is expected to convert so that their baby will be raised catholic. Or maybe I'm wrong, that their fiance can be of a different religion so long as their baby is raised in the RCC?

 

[preacher4truth]

Man's responsibility, his 'work', is to believe. God does not do our believing for us. That's our responsibility. And believing certainly is not a work of the damnable works gospel.

You almost get it, but not quite.

No one can believe God accept that God does that work within them; Ephesians 1:19. The keep believing part is to God's glory, not yours as you tend to take credit unto yourself in your Pars Hominis Gloria doctrine; Philippians 2:12-13.

You also don't completely get the work of believing, that it is a work of God, not man;

"Jesus answered them, This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent" -- John 6:29.

It is the work of God, not the work of man, as you make it out to be, to believe in God.

Read it again "This is the work of God, that you believe..." and think it through. You almost get it, but not quite because you credit yourself more than you credit God, that and you don't see texts as descriptive and prescriptive and make a conflation error.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It is conditional. Conditional on you believing and continuing to believe:

1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB
1...you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you...

Just because the ex-believer doesn't continue to believe doesn't make eternal life any less eternal, no more than losing a winning lottery ticket makes it less valuable. It simply is no longer possessed by the one who lost it. That's all.

In the parable of the sower, it is the soil that 'held fast' the word of the gospel and brought it to fruition. Holding fast the seed, the word, of the gospel is signified by the fruit it bears. That's why work must be a part of a salvation experience--it validates the continuing presence of the seed (the requirement for being saved) that produced it.

The interesting thing is, when people are not saying that even unbelief can not forfeit eternal life, they say that genuine believers will have work attached to their faith, yet they refuse to acknowledge that makes works a necessary part of salvation. Apparently they are incapable of understanding works being necessary for salvation outside of those works earning salvation. But there is clearly a way that works are a necessary part of salvation without those works earning the salvation that produced them. Few seem to be able to see that, though.

then it is not eternal, god lied, and non of us have any hope.

The word eternal means forver, eternal life is not some religious key word, like so much in the church wants to make up new meanings to, it is a fact, whoever believes or trusts God will live forever, that is what the words actually mean.

As for holding fast, a plant can not hold itself into the ground, you give a plant way to much power, a plants future is determined by where it is seated, a plant that is seeded not in firm soil will perish, that is jut the plain facts,

finally, God is the one who made the promise,

God said I give you eternal life,

God said you have it the most you trust him and ask for it

God said he gave you the seal of th spirit.

God said you were born of incorruptible seed

God said you were perfect d forever yet he is in the process of sanctifying g you

God said you will never die, live forever, and be raised on the last day.

thse are all on God, if God made a mistake and gave these things to a person who later decides this god does not exist, that's no God, just like any of us who give someone a gift, we are obligated to fullfill our pledge no matter what, if we, or God, decides to not carry out our promise, we are the sinner, we have destroyed our word, we are not worthy of anyone's faith,

sorry, it's not a free will thing, it is a God thing, God knows all things, he knew everything you would d rom birth to death before you were even conceived, God does not make mistakes. Period, to say he does, just wow.. just wow.

 

[Ariel82]

The seed is the gospel message in the parable of the shower....it can be received or rejected. However when it finds good soil the first fruit it produces is a saving faith and confession from the heart. Than God sends His Holy spirit to seal His born again children. Having heard the gospel does not mean the person either accepts or has a saving faith in Jesus.

The only condition of salvation is faith in Jesus and what He has done for us. That faith will lead us to bear much fruit and do good works, but those things are NOT the root...Jesus is our root and our foundation.

 

[Grace777x70]

Remember this is the church at Corinth, where there were many carnal believers…yes they exist.

It is saved as in the sanctifying effects of being born again.


As with most of these verses Paul is speaking not speaking about eternal life, he is saying that the Corinthians must continue to follow the truth that they learned from the gospel in order to experience its sanctifying effects.


This is not a condition of eternal salvation, but a very real condition of sanctification. It is therefore possible for believers not to hold fast. The New Testament shows that believers may not persevere or hold fast to the truth. We need to rightly divide the scripture when it is addressing salvation which is eternal and discipleship, letting it be our new identity in Christ.

Corinth was having much trouble living in the new identity ....they we not losing their eternal life.

Amen..

I believe that the Holy Spirit knew what He was doing when He had Paul write 1 Corinthians.

Some of them were going to temple prostitutes for sex, they were taking each other to court, they were in divisions and strife, they were not treating the poor amongst them right...etc.

Paul was saying that those in Corinth were acting like mere men and men of flesh - in other words not being spiritually minded.

( works-based salvationists say that God throws His beloved children into hell and then the lake of fire - Paul by inspiration of the Holy Spirit says something totally different )

1 Corinthians 3:1-4 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ.

[SUP]2 [/SUP] I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able,

[SUP]3 [/SUP] for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?

[SUP]4 [/SUP] For when one says, "I am of Paul," and another, "I am of Apollos," are you not mere men?


I noticed that in verse 1 Paul says that they are "babes in Christ".

- not that you are going to hell because you are sinning. Or that because they were sinning - or that they are not born of God.

 

[PHart]

It is the exact opposite, since verse 19 shows that we are saved from a life of despair if we keep in our memory the resurrection.

If we fail to keep foremost in our minds Jesus Christ’s literal, physical, visible resurrection, then we will not be saved from despair and misery on a daily basis because for the believer this is a source of hope.

Context context context...the entire passage is working to make one point that the resurrection did happen and that the Corinthians were giving in to pagan influences that were saying there was not such thing as the resurrection.

Again Paul is not addressing the eternal security of the believer ...he is in fact reteaching the gospel stressing the resurrection. This is all new stuff to these group of believers and Paul wants them to be know the resurrection it true otherwise they have believed in vain.

You're missing it. Look at verse 18.

1 Corinthians 15:18
...if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.

If Christ is not risen from the dead then those who have died are dead, not alive in Christ. That would be an inapplicable statement if he was merely talking about the sanctification aspect of salvation in this life. So he is indeed talking about eternal life when he says...

1 Corinthians 15:2
...the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you...


John says the same thing in his letter:

1 John 2:24-25
24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.
25This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.


They are both in agreement that the believer must continue in what they first heard in order to continue in salvation.

 

[Grace777x70]

Works-based salvationists say that we lose our salvation by what we do or don't do ( which is not based on what Christ has already done ). That is called works-righteousness.

John says that they truth is in us forever. One is telling the truth.

2 John 1:1-2 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;

[SUP]2 [/SUP] For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever.

The Holy Spirit is called the Spirit of Truth. Jesus said that the Holy Spirit will be in us forever too. John 14:16

Jesus said that no one that the Father gives Him will He lose. Jesus said that he will never leave nor forsake us. Jesus said that no one can pluck us out of His hand.

Personally I am going to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and believe that He is not a liar.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Several things, but I suspect the answer you're looking for is He gives them the Holy Spirit. But the Bible is clear that it is possible to quench, or suppress the Holy Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19).

Generally, speaking, the Holy Spirit is as powerful at guarding us in salvation to the extent to which we will not suppress, ignore, and resist that power. And even though you have to be pretty stubborn to resist God's efforts to persuade you to keep believing we still retain our free will to walk away from believing, nonetheless. And since believing is what solicits the indwelling Holy Spirit you will eventually lose the Holy Spirit and access to the sacrifice of Jesus in heaven if you willfully and repeatedly reject Him. The Bible is clear, it is only those who remain in the incorruptible word and seed of life that will inherit that life. You must continue to believe to continue to be saved:

1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB
...you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you...

2 cor 1:22 He (God) Who has sealed us and has GIVEN us the SPIRIT in our hearts as a guarantee.

Eph 1: 13 - 14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Eph 4:30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit, By whom you WERE SEALED until the DAY OF REDEMPTION

1 Thess 5: 19 Do not quench the Spirit.

We can grieve the Holy Spirit (To make sad, Sadden) and quench the Holy Spirit (To put out the flame to extinguish) but no where does it say the HS will leave us, it is clear the HS is with us until the day of redemption, I can put out his light by the way I act, I can not cause him to leave me,,

 

[PHart]

...the parable of the shower...

That's funny.

(We know what you meant)

The only condition of salvation is faith in Jesus and what He has done for us.

Absolutely correct.
No one that I know of had said anything different.

That faith will lead us to bear much fruit and do good works...

And that is precisely the reason why works are a required part of salvation.
Not because they earn salvation, but because as you say, faith leads to fruit bearing.

If you get to the resurrection without any fruit your fruitlessness will bear witness against you and condemn you for not having faith in Christ. That's what we see happening at the Judgment in Matthew 25:41-46

41“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’44“Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45“Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


​

There's no evidence of the love of Christ in these people's works to validate the presence of the faith that, as you correctly say, bears fruit. Off to the Lake of Fire they go. Christ has warned us ahead of time. Don't let the stumbling block of Hypergrace OSAS teachers rob you of deliverance and salvation at the resurrection.

Hypergrace teachers who cause little ones who believe in Christ to stumble and go to the eternal fire will receive their just reward:

6but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.​

7“Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes!8“If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. 9“If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell.​

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, that person is justified the moment they believe. No if's, and's, or but's about it. They are justified.

But be careful to not project a 'Once Saved Always Saved' preconception on that which says the justified person is always justified. That's called circular reasoning. It goes like this: The justified person can not lose his justification because justified people can not lose their justification. See the mistake of that reasoning?

The person who is justified at the moment of believing/ trusting in Christ's blood for the forgiveness of sin will remain justified as long as he keeps believing. When the justified person loses the efficacy of the blood on the altar in heaven because he no longer is trusting in it, he then loses the justification that blood through his faith was securing for him.

So we are justified, but we are not.

We are saved, But we are not

We are sealed, But we are not

We are born of incorruptible seed, But that seed is corruptable

We have been made perfect forever, But we have not been made perfect forever.

It seems you have a hang up on once saved always saved, Maybe it is this hang up that is not allowing you to see?

When we look at Gods promises, We do not think of some doctrine (OSAS or any other doctrine), We think, Ok God what did you promise, Ok, I trust you, a have an assurance you can keep your word, (faith) and in this, I am going to rely on you.

 

[Grace777x70]

I wonder if this "Christian" thing has anything to do with "grace" that is in Christ Jesus our Lord and Savior?

It looks like we have received - grace upon grace through the Lord Jesus Christ

John 1:16-17 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace.

[SUP]17 [/SUP] For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.

It looks like we "believe through grace"..

( I'm sure they really meant that we are saved because of the good works we do...)

Acts 18:27 (KJV)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

Paul said that it was the grace of God that would give the believers their inheritance and it was able to build them up.

( Maybe that's not really important...)

Acts 20:32 (KJV)
[SUP]32 [/SUP] And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.

Paul said for Timothy to be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.

( He probably didn't really mean it.... )


2 Timothy 2:1 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] You therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.


The apostles said that we are saved by the grace of God

( They probably really meant to say - you are saved by works that we do or don't do.)

Acts 15:11 (NASB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] "But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are."


Paul says that we are justified "freely" by grace....

(He really meant to say - we are justified and continue to be saved by all the good works we do... )

Romans 3:24 (KJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:


Paul says that when we receive the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness - we reign in life through Christ alone.

( He really meant to say that - those who do good works all the days of their life will receive grace and the gift of righteousness )

Romans 5:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.


Then Paul was really messed up when he told the Ephesians this scripture below-

( He really meant to say - you must do good works in order to create and maintain salvation - Paul was just having an "off" day when he wrote Ephesians )

( And God has even prepared the good works for us to walk in as a result of having His grace that saves us and not any works - we get to participate in the family business of telling people of the love and grace our loving Father and Lord have for them )


Ephesians 2:8-10 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

[SUP]9 [/SUP] not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

[SUP]10 [/SUP] For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.


Here Paul told Timothy that God saved us according to His own purpose and grace - not according to our works.

( He really meant to say - He will save us if we do enough good works...again Paul was having an "off" day )

2 Timothy 1:9 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,



Peter says to fix our hope "completely" on the grace that comes with the revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ.

( It's most likely a mis-print in all 5,000 manuscripts - he really meant to tell us to fix our hope on our good works because you could end up in hell if you don't do enough of them..)

1 Peter 1:13
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace being brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.


Conclusion - this "grace stuff" is really not important at all. We can "do our own works of righteousness in order to keep ourselves saved" - and God will be happy with us....yeah right!.......

 

[PHart]

So we are justified, but we are not.

We are saved, But we are not

We are sealed, But we are not

We are born of incorruptible seed, But that seed is corruptable

We have been made perfect forever, But we have not been made perfect forever.

No, all these things are true for the one who believes. Not for the one who has departed the faith in unbelief.

Keep believing and all these promises are true and are yours, and no one can take them away from you.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The context of 1 Corinthians 15 shows us plainly that Paul is talking about salvation as in eternal life, not earthly sanctification...

1 Corinthians 15:17-19 NASB
...if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.

The key words here are, If CHrist has not risen, we are dead in our sins. and we are of all men to be the most pittied.

Christ has risen, so we have an eternal hope

 

[Grace777x70]

So what happens if we no longer believe?

Unquote:

We often hear this statement being said.

So, this implies that anyone can stop believing even though they are sealed with the Holy Spirit. You realize there is a difference between the heart of man and the mind of man?

We believe in the heart - not in the head. People can be messed up in their heads because of wrong thinking and be sick. This doesn't negate the work of Christ in their hearts - in their spirit where they are one spirit with the Lord. 1 Cor. 6;17

At what point does Jesus leave you and separate Himself from you? He did say that He would never leave you nor forsake you.

If someone could at any time "change their believing in their heart" and the completely foolish belief that one can "un-born" themselves.

- then that means that Paul and all the other Christians that have gone to heaven can now as an act of their own mind choose to not believe in Christ. It's foolishness and it is a deception from the enemy to get us "working to keep our salvation". Christ Himself is our salvation - not us.

Can any Christian that is with the Lord now choose to not believe in Him in his heart? Think this through.

No, my brethren - belief in Christ and true faith is born in the heart of man and we are then born-again and have been created a new creation in Christ - sealed with the Holy Spirit.

Let's preach and teach Christ and all that He has already done so that us Christians will have the proper nutrients to grow up in Him so that others in this world can see the love and grace our loving Father and Lord have for them.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Interesting. Did not know that. I also heard baptists teach conditional security?? A while ago I watched on youtube a lady that had some dream and was claiming that she saw born again believers in hell, that they had sinned and had not been forgiven of those sins before they died, and it was an urgent warning to the church! Not sure if this was just her, or whether the baptist churches actually teach this?


But would say that when one is convicted of their sins, and they become a new creature in Christ, that then they know what they were saved from. Those who are currently without truth don't seek to witness to others, because they don't have the truth to begin with.

With catholicism, all I've seen is when a catholic wants to marry and the fiance is expected to convert so that their baby will be raised catholic. Or maybe I'm wrong, that their fiance can be of a different religion so long as their baby is raised in the RCC?

there are many different types of baptists. I stopped telling people I was baptist because people always had pre-concived ideas of what I believed just by the word. There are some who believe salvation is conditional. Most that I know of do not. They will however say if you commit certain sins, you must not have ever been saved, or you would never do them. Which I have great issue with, But that and many other things is the reason I do not go there anymore.

I remember growing up. we saw everyone on sunday and some on wed night, But we never got together outside church, and only the deacons and pastor went on visitation to invite people to church (I went on some with my dad who was a deacon)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No, all these things are true for the one who believes. Not for the one who has departed the faith in unbelief.

Keep believing and all these promises are true and are yours, and no one can take them away from you.

Yes they are true for the one who believes.

And they can not be lost. Otherwise they are not true

thats my point.

Its like saying I am on thin ice, I fell through, and am saved, But I am still on that thin ice, In danger of falling through again, I was never saved to begin with,all that happened was I was lifted back up to continue my journey, and I am on thin ice so I better be careful

To much I in that aspect.