Not By Works
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P
Several things, but I suspect the answer you're looking for is He gives them the Holy Spirit. But the Bible is clear that it is possible to quench, or suppress the Holy Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19).
Generally, speaking, the Holy Spirit is as powerful at guarding us in salvation to the extent to which we will not suppress, ignore, and resist that power. And even though you have to be pretty stubborn to resist God's efforts to persuade you to keep believing we still retain our free will to walk away from believing, nonetheless. And since believing is what solicits the indwelling Holy Spirit you will eventually lose the Holy Spirit and access to the sacrifice of Jesus in heaven if you willfully and repeatedly reject Him. The Bible is clear, it is only those who remain in the incorruptible word and seed of life that will inherit that life. You must continue to believe to continue to be saved:
1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB
...you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you...
P
Actually, it's the other way around: 'Faith' is being persuaded something is true (Hebrews 11:1), while 'believing' is then trusting in what you are persuaded is true.
We believe because we have the faith that the gospel is true. The faith part is God's doing. The believing, the trusting part is ours.
We believe because we have the faith that the gospel is true. The faith part is God's doing. The believing, the trusting part is ours.
P
Yes, that person is justified the moment they believe. No if's, and's, or but's about it. They are justified.
But be careful to not project a 'Once Saved Always Saved' preconception on that which says the justified person is always justified. That's called circular reasoning. It goes like this: The justified person can not lose his justification because justified people can not lose their justification. See the mistake of that reasoning?
The person who is justified at the moment of believing/ trusting in Christ's blood for the forgiveness of sin will remain justified as long as he keeps believing. When the justified person loses the efficacy of the blood on the altar in heaven because he no longer is trusting in it, he then loses the justification that blood through his faith was securing for him.
But be careful to not project a 'Once Saved Always Saved' preconception on that which says the justified person is always justified. That's called circular reasoning. It goes like this: The justified person can not lose his justification because justified people can not lose their justification. See the mistake of that reasoning?
The person who is justified at the moment of believing/ trusting in Christ's blood for the forgiveness of sin will remain justified as long as he keeps believing. When the justified person loses the efficacy of the blood on the altar in heaven because he no longer is trusting in it, he then loses the justification that blood through his faith was securing for him.
U
I see, this explains why you think unbelief causes someone to loose their salvation.
However Hebrews 11:1 works with what I said, it is faith in action (confidence)
[h=3]Faith in Action
[/h]11 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.
There is only one place in scripture where faith is described as something which God gives (Romans) in all other places it is something that is the result of our belief and it is not a gift from God.
However Hebrews 11:1 works with what I said, it is faith in action (confidence)
[h=3]Faith in Action
[/h]11 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.
There is only one place in scripture where faith is described as something which God gives (Romans) in all other places it is something that is the result of our belief and it is not a gift from God.
U
Really?
So when you go to court and the judge says your debt is paid because someone else paid the debt for you as a gift and
therefore you are declared innocent of all debts past present and future, because you stepped out in faith and accepted the
free gift, then somehow, if for some reason you begin to doubt all the debt was forgiven/paid,
then because of this the judge gives you back your debt?
The debt is paid as a gift how does our unbelief change the decree?
So when you go to court and the judge says your debt is paid because someone else paid the debt for you as a gift and
therefore you are declared innocent of all debts past present and future, because you stepped out in faith and accepted the
free gift, then somehow, if for some reason you begin to doubt all the debt was forgiven/paid,
then because of this the judge gives you back your debt?
The debt is paid as a gift how does our unbelief change the decree?
P
Let's stop you right here.
Calvinism says the believer can never lose his salvation because the believer can never stop believing, and that the believer will always have works to accompany his salvation or else he was never saved to begin with. So that rules you out as being of a Calvinistic persuasion.
Now, according to this verse below, are people saved who don't hold fast the word?
1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB
...you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you...
Calvinists say true believers always hold fast the word and, therefore, are always saved. But your quote above indicates that you are not Calvinist, so you don't interpret the verse that way. So you have no other choice but to interpret the verse as meaning exactly what it says, "you are saved, IF YOU HOLD FAST THE WORD". But you believe that if you no longer hold fast the word in belief you're still saved, right? If so, that completely contradicts what Paul plainly said.
Calvinism says the believer can never lose his salvation because the believer can never stop believing, and that the believer will always have works to accompany his salvation or else he was never saved to begin with. So that rules you out as being of a Calvinistic persuasion.
Now, according to this verse below, are people saved who don't hold fast the word?
1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB
...you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you...
Calvinists say true believers always hold fast the word and, therefore, are always saved. But your quote above indicates that you are not Calvinist, so you don't interpret the verse that way. So you have no other choice but to interpret the verse as meaning exactly what it says, "you are saved, IF YOU HOLD FAST THE WORD". But you believe that if you no longer hold fast the word in belief you're still saved, right? If so, that completely contradicts what Paul plainly said.
P
Yes.
That is what Jesus taught.
He said, in the kingdom if you do not forgive as he has forgiven you, you will have your debt he freely forgave reinstated:
Matthew 18:23-35 NASB
23“For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves. 24“When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. 25“But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.26“So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.’ 27“And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt. 28“But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay back what you owe.’ 29“So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you.’ 30“But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed. 31“So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened. 32“Then summoning him, his lord said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33‘Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34“And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35“My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”
Read the passage carefully and thoughtfully. Jesus said his Father will do the same to us if we do not treat the free gift of forgiveness with respect and appreciation.
That is what Jesus taught.
He said, in the kingdom if you do not forgive as he has forgiven you, you will have your debt he freely forgave reinstated:
Matthew 18:23-35 NASB
23“For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves. 24“When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. 25“But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.26“So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.’ 27“And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt. 28“But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay back what you owe.’ 29“So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you.’ 30“But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed. 31“So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened. 32“Then summoning him, his lord said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33‘Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34“And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35“My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”
Read the passage carefully and thoughtfully. Jesus said his Father will do the same to us if we do not treat the free gift of forgiveness with respect and appreciation.
U
Remember this is the church at Corinth, where there were many carnal believers…yes they exist.
It is saved as in the sanctifying effects of being born again.
As with most of these verses Paul is speaking not speaking about eternal life, he is saying that the Corinthians must continue to follow the truth that they learned from the gospel in order to experience its sanctifying effects.
This is not a condition of eternal salvation, but a very real condition of sanctification. It is therefore possible for believers not to hold fast. The New Testament shows that believers may not persevere or hold fast to the truth. We need to rightly divide the scripture when it is addressing salvation which is eternal and discipleship, letting it be our new identity in Christ.
Corinth was having much trouble living in the new identity ....they we not losing their eternal life.
It is saved as in the sanctifying effects of being born again.
As with most of these verses Paul is speaking not speaking about eternal life, he is saying that the Corinthians must continue to follow the truth that they learned from the gospel in order to experience its sanctifying effects.
This is not a condition of eternal salvation, but a very real condition of sanctification. It is therefore possible for believers not to hold fast. The New Testament shows that believers may not persevere or hold fast to the truth. We need to rightly divide the scripture when it is addressing salvation which is eternal and discipleship, letting it be our new identity in Christ.
Corinth was having much trouble living in the new identity ....they we not losing their eternal life.
P
The context of 1 Corinthians 15 shows us plainly that Paul is talking about salvation as in eternal life, not earthly sanctification...
1 Corinthians 15:17-19 NASB
...if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.
1 Corinthians 15:17-19 NASB
...if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.
P
Don't miss the point of the passage.
The man in the story lost the forgiveness of the debt that he received that he could not pay himself.
Jesus said that's how it is in the kingdom. His Father will treat each of us the way the King treated the man in the story if we do not forgive as we have been freely forgiven. IOW, we will lose the forgiven we have if we do not forgive. But so many people in the church insist you can not lose your redemption, the forgiveness of your sins (Ephesians 1:7), under any circumstances whatsoever and that you are irretrievably saved, and that not even unbelief can cause God to revoke his free gift of forgiveness.
The man in the story lost the forgiveness of the debt that he received that he could not pay himself.
Jesus said that's how it is in the kingdom. His Father will treat each of us the way the King treated the man in the story if we do not forgive as we have been freely forgiven. IOW, we will lose the forgiven we have if we do not forgive. But so many people in the church insist you can not lose your redemption, the forgiveness of your sins (Ephesians 1:7), under any circumstances whatsoever and that you are irretrievably saved, and that not even unbelief can cause God to revoke his free gift of forgiveness.
U
It is the exact opposite, since verse 19 shows that we are saved from a life of despair if we keep in our memory the resurrection.
If we fail to keep foremost in our minds Jesus Christ’s literal, physical, visible resurrection, then we will not be saved from despair and misery on a daily basis because for the believer this is a source of hope.
Context context context...the entire passage is working to make one point that the resurrection did happen and that the Corinthians were giving in to pagan influences that were saying there was not such thing as the resurrection.
Again Paul is not addressing the eternal security of the believer ...he is in fact reteaching the gospel stressing the resurrection. This is all new stuff to these group of believers and Paul wants them to be know the resurrection it true otherwise they have believed in vain.
If we fail to keep foremost in our minds Jesus Christ’s literal, physical, visible resurrection, then we will not be saved from despair and misery on a daily basis because for the believer this is a source of hope.
Context context context...the entire passage is working to make one point that the resurrection did happen and that the Corinthians were giving in to pagan influences that were saying there was not such thing as the resurrection.
Again Paul is not addressing the eternal security of the believer ...he is in fact reteaching the gospel stressing the resurrection. This is all new stuff to these group of believers and Paul wants them to be know the resurrection it true otherwise they have believed in vain.
Thing is, the Holy Spirit is our deposit... our guarantee. Those who belong to God are sealed until the day of redemption (Ephesians 1:3-14). There is more to a seal than some realize. The scriptures give examples of how a King's seal is regarded. It cannot be revoked. The seal is used in order to give something authenticity, ownership or authority.
Esther 8:8: "You yourselves write a decree concerning the Jews, as you please, in the king’s name, and seal it with the king’s signet ring; for whatever is written in the king’s name and sealed with the king’s signet ring no one can revoke.”
You say "...believe to the very end in order to be saved on the day of judgment" - so then you believe ongoing obedience to the end is a necessary requirement for salvation, and that one cannot know if they are saved until they hear the verdict on judgment day? Scripture disagrees with you. Many examples, but one... 1 John 5:13: "that you may know you have eternal life"
It's too late to be saved on judgment day. Salvation is only offered as a gift to us while we're still alive. It's a one time event, where we're born of the Spirit ONE time. Then ongoing sanctification, for the purpose of becoming more like Jesus, and so we can be effective witnesses to the lost, shining the light of Jesus in the dark world.
God made a promise to us that those He justified WILL be glorified in the end. It's not a gamble, waiting until judgment day to find out if you made it!! It's too late then! And we can have assurance now!
Hebrews 10:14: "For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified"
Phillipians 3:20-21: "For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself"
Romans 8:28-30: "And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For (because) whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified"
Predestined to be conformed to His image. So predestined confirms the future completion.
Glorification is the finale to sanctification, where we are promised a glorified body.
Romans 8 confirms at the end "But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you" - so those sealed with the Holy Spirit have this assurance!!
Esther 8:8: "You yourselves write a decree concerning the Jews, as you please, in the king’s name, and seal it with the king’s signet ring; for whatever is written in the king’s name and sealed with the king’s signet ring no one can revoke.”
You say "...believe to the very end in order to be saved on the day of judgment" - so then you believe ongoing obedience to the end is a necessary requirement for salvation, and that one cannot know if they are saved until they hear the verdict on judgment day? Scripture disagrees with you. Many examples, but one... 1 John 5:13: "that you may know you have eternal life"
It's too late to be saved on judgment day. Salvation is only offered as a gift to us while we're still alive. It's a one time event, where we're born of the Spirit ONE time. Then ongoing sanctification, for the purpose of becoming more like Jesus, and so we can be effective witnesses to the lost, shining the light of Jesus in the dark world.
God made a promise to us that those He justified WILL be glorified in the end. It's not a gamble, waiting until judgment day to find out if you made it!! It's too late then! And we can have assurance now!
Hebrews 10:14: "For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified"
Phillipians 3:20-21: "For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself"
Romans 8:28-30: "And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For (because) whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified"
Predestined to be conformed to His image. So predestined confirms the future completion.
Glorification is the finale to sanctification, where we are promised a glorified body.
Romans 8 confirms at the end "But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you" - so those sealed with the Holy Spirit have this assurance!!
Lol. My friend, for whatever reason you are upset.
I am sorry for that. I cannot put it right if you cannot express it.
One member confessed I had hurt them and they set out to hurt me.
It was resolved in the end, but we can become victims of our situation.
So your general statements do not add any resolution.
And we are all called to be righteous and holy. You do not believe this?
I cannot help if you condemn me for no reason, look to Christ and hear Him.
The logic being put here does not add up. Jesus calls us to walk in His ways.
Yes, but I will not because I do not like your example.
Never thought I would be the excuse before the Lord, because I shared His word.
But I know repudiation. God bless you, May you know His victory in your life.
I am sorry for that. I cannot put it right if you cannot express it.
One member confessed I had hurt them and they set out to hurt me.
It was resolved in the end, but we can become victims of our situation.
So your general statements do not add any resolution.
And we are all called to be righteous and holy. You do not believe this?
I cannot help if you condemn me for no reason, look to Christ and hear Him.
The logic being put here does not add up. Jesus calls us to walk in His ways.
Yes, but I will not because I do not like your example.
Never thought I would be the excuse before the Lord, because I shared His word.
But I know repudiation. God bless you, May you know His victory in your life.