Not By Works

[PeterJens]

baptists teach conditional security??

Is it possible to have unconditional security?
It all depends on what is being secure, what is being protected, what is safety.

Is this the case of us gaining security or God redeeming a people?
God called Israel out of Egypt to form a people who followed and obeyed Him.
But Israel as a nation failed, but individuals within it did not.

The Lord initiated the whole process through Abraham, and then Moses.
The form of man and faith can go from salvation to rebellion.
Knowing God face to face is not enough, when it is obvious God is there
people do not care. This is a profound realisation into the rebellion within man
and the slavery to sin and the desires of the flesh.

As God is building a redeemed people who choose to follow, exercising free will
inspired and empowered by love, walk in righteousness.

But if these people walk away, then they are no longer the redeemed people but
the rebellious people.

So walking in communion with God, is eternal life, life from heaven, but it is only
eternal when it progresses after the second death. Demonstrating the change is
the walk, maintained and continued. But calling it eternal life does not mean it is
eternal for those who walk in it, but showing life has changed for the obedient, faith
holding believer.

So I find it hard with this reality to talk about unconditional security, because this
denies the realities of scripture and life that we know. Now I am happy to be proven
wrong, because the idea of joining the glories of Christ that never can fade sounds appealing,
but seems rather to be driven by deep insecurity and an lack of perception of sin and Christs
victory of it.

Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.
1 Tim 4:16

 

[UnderGrace]

Thank you for adding the scripture. I am a big picture thinker but the scripture is there to support the big picture as we know.

Amen, By one act, All men fall, even so, by one act, all men shall be made alive, for as in adam all die, even so in christ shall all be made alive.

one act. One moment,

All of my sin was future when Christ died, When I come to ask home for mercy, ALL my sin is in question, I did not ask God to die for my past sin, I ask him to save me from myself, From all my sins,

 

[PeterJens]

Absurdity of forgiveness of recurring sin

Sin is the reflection of a rotten heart, a dying within, an empty existance, a hurt reality.
So if a believer is cleansed of the consequences of their sin, but still continue in it, surely
this is just worthless language that has changed nothing.

If sin is just superficial dirt that can be washed off, then all are clean, as long as they have
a shower. But Jesus implies, one sin that is caught into ones life, means the whole is thrown
into hell. Jesus goes deeper saying it is the heart that is impure and needs cleansing, and that
once cleansed the people of God are holy, pure and blameless.

So this is not a distant cleansing in a court room leaving the believer as they are, but a heart
change, a complete overturning the internal processes within the believer, so they walk with
righteousness, and have the root of sin in their hearts resolved by Christ.

So the concept of future sin forgiven is actually a statement of faith that a resolution of sin that
has not come into being, will not come into being. It is why it is a belief in unbelief in the power
of the cross to transform us and bring us real victory to our hearts.

 

[PHart]

We think, Ok God what did you promise, Ok, I trust you, a have an assurance you can keep your word, (faith) and in this, I am going to rely on you.

What you are describing here is a person who is continuing to believe. They have the security of salvation because they continue to believe. All the promises are theirs. It is the person who stops doing what you describe above that loses the surety of the promises.

 

[PHart]

Yes they are true for the one who believes.

And they can not be lost. Otherwise they are not true

thats my point.

Its like saying I am on thin ice, I fell through, and am saved, But I am still on that thin ice, In danger of falling through again, I was never saved to begin with,all that happened was I was lifted back up to continue my journey, and I am on thin ice so I better be careful

To much I in that aspect.

So you apparently believe that the true believer can not stop believing. If so, you should be thoroughly resisting those in this thread who insist that the person who no longer believes is still saved (you're saying they were never saved to begin with). Your Calvinistic leanings, as you have been sharing them, say the ex-believer who no longer believes was never saved to begin with. Tell them that.

 

[UnderGrace]

This is out of context!

Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull

We think, Ok God what did you promise, Ok, I trust you, a have an assurance you can keep your word, (faith) and in this, I am going to rely on you.

What you are describing here is a person who is continuing to believe. They have the security of salvation because they continue to believe. All the promises are theirs. It is the person who stops doing what you describe above that loses the surety of the promises.

 

[PHart]

And by the way, John has said they were never of us, for if they were of us, they never would have left. The left to prove they were never really of us.

You can not lose salvation, You maye think you have it, and not have it, by which you will lose faith, because it was never rooted to begin with,

But you can not lose salvation, Because you can not save yourself. or keep yourself saved.

Again, It is God who made the promises, if he messed up and saved someone he has to take it back, thats on him, He has to fulfill his promise, or his word is meaningless.

Don't tell me.
Tell everyone in this thread who says the ex-believer is still saved.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What you are describing here is a person who is continuing to believe. They have the security of salvation because they continue to believe. All the promises are theirs. It is the person who stops doing what you describe above that loses the surety of the promises.

No, What we have here is a person who actually believes, What you have is backwards, As John said, The knowledge of having eternal life is the basis for which we continue to believe, ie, it is the assurance of salvation which is the reason we continue to believe,

As someone said earlier, Faith is action, it is not like feelings, which come and go, Faith based on feelings will come and go, and will never sustain itself.

Faith based on action and ASSURANCE (based on hope) Will never fail, Because faith acts.

 

[PHart]

Paul includes himself and even Timothy when he states clearly.....IF WE believe not, HE abides faithful because he cannot deny HIMSELF........

Right, he can not deny himself.
It is the ex-believer who is no longer a part of Christ that he will deny.
When Christ rejects an ex-believer he is not rejecting himself. He is rejecting someone who is now outside of himself.

 

[PHart]

Amen....passed from death unto life....a present continuing result from a past completed action.......<--Greek verb tense denied by those who teach it can be lost or forfeit.

Of course the result continues from the moment you first believed.
The point is, the result from that first moment of believing ends when your believing ends.

And, in regard to 'passing from death to life', John said it is the one who is obedient to God that has passed from death to life

1 John 3:14 NASB
14We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death.

That makes obedience (works) a required part of salvation. Not because it earned that salvation, but because works are what people who have passed from death to life do. If you don't have those works you have not passed from death to life. You are abiding in death, not life. You have not passed out of death into life. John said so. That's how and why works have to be a part of salvation. That's not a works gospel.

 

[mailmandan]

Right, he can not deny himself.
It is the ex-believer who is no longer a part of Christ that he will deny.
When Christ rejects an ex-believer he is not rejecting himself. He is rejecting someone who is now outside of himself.

Where does the Bible say "ex-believer," "un-saved," "un-regenerated," "un-born again," "un-sealed by the Holy Spirit," "lost salvation?"

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So you apparently believe that the true believer can not stop believing. If so, you should be thoroughly resisting those in this thread who insist that the person who no longer believes is still saved (you're saying they were never saved to begin with). Your Calvinistic leanings, as you have been sharing them, say the ex-believer who no longer believes was never saved to begin with. Tell them that.

Why would I? And why would I force myself to align with teachings and doctrines of men, and not just align myself with God.

Faith acts, It does not stop acting, it continues. It is placed as an assurance that the person we trust can do what he promised.

We lose faith in people because they let us down, Because they become untrustworthy, Because we are no longer assured they can do what they promised based on past actions.

Has God ever let anyone down? Then why would you or anyone else think he would become so untrustworthy people who had real saving faith would no longer trust?

To me, this is the reason they could never have been saved, Plus John said so in 1 John 2, It has nothign to do with what some so called theologian said,

Like I said earlier, People need to stop focusing on certain doctrines, and start actually listenign to what people say (and mor importantly, what God says)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Don't tell me.
Tell everyone in this thread who says the ex-believer is still saved.

I am telling you, and I suggest you listen to God.

There is no such thing as an ex believer, Thats is what John said, "they were never of us (never had saving faith)" I think we should pay attention to john, and not calvin, or arminian or whoever it is we align yourself with.

 

[dcontroversal]

Of course the result continues from the moment you first believed.
The point is, the result from that first moment of believing ends when your believing ends.

And, in regard to 'passing from death to life', John said it is the one who is obedient to God that has passed from death to life

1 John 3:14 NASB
14We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death.

That makes obedience (works) a required part of salvation. Not because it earned that salvation, but because works are what people who have passed from death to life do. If you don't have those works you have not passed from death to life. You are abiding in death, not life. You have not passed out of death into life. John said so. That's how and why works have to be a part of salvation. That's not a works gospel.

I can tell you for sure....NO ONE...and I do mean NO ONE will ever shake my faith in the eternal security of the believer....ever! To buy into that one must.....

a. Deny scripture
b. Twist scripture out of context
c. Deny the very words used and inspired such as eternal and everlasting
d. Deny verb tense
e. Deny the PROMISES of JESUS who BEGINS and FINISHES the faith and good work he began in every believer
f. Deny being in the hands of eh Father and Jesus
g. Deny the sealing of the Holy Spirit as the prepayment of our ETERNAL INHERITANCE
etc.....

End of Story.....

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Right, he can not deny himself.
It is the ex-believer who is no longer a part of Christ that he will deny.
When Christ rejects an ex-believer he is not rejecting himself. He is rejecting someone who is now outside of himself.

The ex believer has never seen God or known God (he who sins has never seen God or known him, there is no greater sin than unbelief) The ex believer has never been a part of the church (they were never of us, because if they had, they never would have departed)

What you are suggesting is an impossibility. and to me denies the power of God to keep a person in his fold..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Where does the Bible say "ex-believer," "un-saved," "un-regenerated," "un-born again," "un-sealed by the Holy Spirit," "lost salvation?"

You wont find it, Sadly you will find it in many churches..

 

[PHart]

I am telling you, and I suggest you listen to God.

There is no such thing as an ex believer, Thats is what John said, "they were never of us (never had saving faith)" I think we should pay attention to john, and not calvin, or arminian or whoever it is we align yourself with.

I respect the argument. At least you don't believe that ex-believers still have eternal life. Now I wish you just tell the others in this thread that.

I'm neither Calvy or Armin. It's impossible to isolate what I believe in either camp. Especially since they seem to mean different things to different people. The bottom line is, I believe only believers have the promises of God. But I also believe that one can stop believing. That's probably the only difference between us. We both agree (I think) that ex-believers do not get to keep the promises. You agree because there's no such thing as an ex-believer. Like I say, I respect that argument. It's reasonable. I just don't necessarily agree with it.

 

[PHart]

Where does the Bible say "ex-believer," "un-saved," "un-regenerated," "un-born again," "un-sealed by the Holy Spirit," "lost salvation?"

Maybe those who insist ex-believers get to keep the promises of God can help you.
You sound Calvy, too. You should be coming down on these people who say ex-believers are still saved. Calvy says if you go back to unbelief you were never really saved to begin with. H-grace says you were not only saved, but still are! Big difference of doctrine, but I do not see Calvy people challenging their beliefs, just amening them.

 

[mailmandan]

The ex believer has never seen God or known God (he who sins has never seen God or known him, there is no greater sin than unbelief) The ex believer has never been a part of the church (they were never of us, because if they had, they never would have departed)

What you are suggesting is an impossibility. and to me denies the power of God to keep a person in his fold..

Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. ​*ALL of them. Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress it's certainty.

 

[John146]

I am telling you, and I suggest you listen to God.

There is no such thing as an ex believer, Thats is what John said, "they were never of us (never had saving faith)" I think we should pay attention to john, and not calvin, or arminian or whoever it is we align yourself with.

Did Demas have saving faith? He forsook Paul because he loved the world. I say yes, Demas was a saved man. A believer can walk away from his faith, but God will not walk away from that man who once put his trust in the Savior.

2 Timothy 4:10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.