Works can NEVER earn salvation
- Thread starter Defenderofgrace
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
J
they wont have works when they are taught "not by works". your teaching exactly what the pharisee taught and what Jesus taught against. "they teach but dont practice" and this gets you no where which is why the pharisee leadership was so corrupt.
have no idea what your talking about.
faith without works is dead, James the just was not an idiot.
E
He came to fulfill it
Why? For 2 reasons at the very least
1. BECAUSE YOU CAN”T
2. SO HE CAN SAVE YOU by removing the curse of the law from you.
Who said he abolished it? he did not. IT IS STILL IN EFFECT, YOUR WILL DIE IN YOUR SIN BECAUSE OF THE LAW IF YOU DO NOT REPENT. And RECEIVE CHRIST.
You have 2 choices, Come to god under law. Or come to God under grace, there is not a third option. If you chose under law you WILL FAIL
Why? For 2 reasons at the very least
1. BECAUSE YOU CAN”T
2. SO HE CAN SAVE YOU by removing the curse of the law from you.
Who said he abolished it? he did not. IT IS STILL IN EFFECT, YOUR WILL DIE IN YOUR SIN BECAUSE OF THE LAW IF YOU DO NOT REPENT. And RECEIVE CHRIST.
You have 2 choices, Come to god under law. Or come to God under grace, there is not a third option. If you chose under law you WILL FAIL
E
You have no idea what faith is, If you did, You would not spew this stuff.
True faith WORKS! It does nto have to be told to have works, IT DESIRES TO WORK.
You have been led astray.. You need to shed the stuff you have been taught,
Yep. If we CLAIM to have faith but HAVE no works, our faith is dead.
result. Never saved, (we asre saved by faith, how can someone be saved if they HAVE NO FAITH? They CAN’T
Why?
TRUE FAITH WORKS.
I know you do not know what I am talking about, Because you have not the slightest clue what repent and faith means..
-
1
- Show all
L
The problem with works based salvation or even works based maintenance of salvation, is that everything we do is plagued with sin. Which is what Paul is referring to in Romans 8. That even when we do good sin is right there. If we give to the poor self satisfaction and pride are right there staining the good deed, making our righteousness as filthy rags. Even our love is self serving. We love because we feel good because we gratify ourselves, and our flesh in expressing, and so the one thing that we can do in purity is blemished by selfishness.
To think there is some line out there that we can draw between us and sin is sin its self, because we deceive ourselves into thinking that we do not sin even by our very nature being sinful.
If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
1 John 1:8 NASB
This saying is not written to the world but to Christians as he admonishes us to walk in the light. The principal of walk in the light is to walk in truth and part of that truth is that if you think you don't sin you are not walking in the light.
So back to Paul in Romans, who can save me from this body of sin and death? Praise be to Jesus because only he can, and to his glory he does.
To think there is some line out there that we can draw between us and sin is sin its self, because we deceive ourselves into thinking that we do not sin even by our very nature being sinful.
If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
1 John 1:8 NASB
This saying is not written to the world but to Christians as he admonishes us to walk in the light. The principal of walk in the light is to walk in truth and part of that truth is that if you think you don't sin you are not walking in the light.
So back to Paul in Romans, who can save me from this body of sin and death? Praise be to Jesus because only he can, and to his glory he does.
-
1
- Show all
Show one scripture where “Christ” said being born again baptized by water is not a must to see the kingdom heaven?
Let’s read scripture again:
John 3:3 Iesus answered, and said vnto him, Uerily, verily I say vnto thee, except a man be borne againe, he cannot see the kingdome of God.
John 3:5 Iesus answered, Uerily, verily I say vnto thee, except a man be borne of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdome of God.
Both believing and baptism shall be saved:
Mark 16:16 He that beleeueth and is baptized, shalbe saued, but he that beleeueth not, shall be damned.
Christ said it is done by Water and the spirit.
By water how?
By Baptism as He showed!
Straightway out of the water!
Matthew 3:16 And Iesus, when hee was baptized, went vp straightway out of the water: and loe, the heauens were opened vnto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a doue, and lighting vpon him.
After baptism we recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit! Also called the Comforter
by Christ!
Let’s read scripture again:
John 3:3 Iesus answered, and said vnto him, Uerily, verily I say vnto thee, except a man be borne againe, he cannot see the kingdome of God.
John 3:5 Iesus answered, Uerily, verily I say vnto thee, except a man be borne of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdome of God.
Both believing and baptism shall be saved:
Mark 16:16 He that beleeueth and is baptized, shalbe saued, but he that beleeueth not, shall be damned.
Christ said it is done by Water and the spirit.
By water how?
By Baptism as He showed!
Straightway out of the water!
Matthew 3:16 And Iesus, when hee was baptized, went vp straightway out of the water: and loe, the heauens were opened vnto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a doue, and lighting vpon him.
After baptism we recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit! Also called the Comforter
by Christ!
-
1
- Show all
I see I should repeat my response in this thread also 
:
[my response here-->] https://christianchat.com/threads/baptism-born-again-how-are-they-connected.186319/post-3986205
:[my response here-->] https://christianchat.com/threads/baptism-born-again-how-are-they-connected.186319/post-3986205
J
you, you are the one saying He abolished the law. when you teach the law is not for us because of what Jesus did, that translates to He abolished the law. you can spin this every which way you want, its always going to be the same result, the law is abolished, which Jesus said He did not come to abolish the law.
J
spewing what stuff? you mean the "good works" example of Jesus, sorry about that. so if the good works of Jesus is wrong, what is the proper example?
good works are leading me astray? so rather than look at the works (like Jesus taught) i should be looking at words and words alone. Jim Jones had good words, spoke well when reading the bible, said blacks were welcome worship with whites, said the young should take care of the sick and elderly, etc etc, wow! he said such wonderful things, but his actions were that of a pedophile, homosexual, adulterer, drug addict, and in the end a mass murderer.
but this is not what your teaching, you teaching saved by faith, faith alone, and nothing else added to the faith equation, that included works. works are not part of your idea.
its either faith/works or faith alone, one or the other, you say its faith alone and then try and add the "works" through the back door. thats not gonna fly.
good works are leading me astray? so rather than look at the works (like Jesus taught) i should be looking at words and words alone. Jim Jones had good words, spoke well when reading the bible, said blacks were welcome worship with whites, said the young should take care of the sick and elderly, etc etc, wow! he said such wonderful things, but his actions were that of a pedophile, homosexual, adulterer, drug addict, and in the end a mass murderer.
but this is not what your teaching, you teaching saved by faith, faith alone, and nothing else added to the faith equation, that included works. works are not part of your idea.
its either faith/works or faith alone, one or the other, you say its faith alone and then try and add the "works" through the back door. thats not gonna fly.
-
2
- Show all
The saved ones are saved because Jesus' blood alow them to be ... but everyone will be judged for their works:
Rom 2:1 (LEB) Therefore you are without excuse, O man, every one of you who passes judgment. For in that which you pass judgment on someone else, you condemn yourself, for you who are passing judgment are doing the same things.
2 Now we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who do such things.
3 But do you think this, O man who passes judgment on those who do such things, and who does the same things, that you will escape the judgment of God?
4 Or do you despise the wealth of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentence?
5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart, you are storing up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and of the revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who will reward each one according to his works:
7 to those who, by perseverance in good work, seek glory and honor and immortality, eternal life,
8 but to those who act from selfish ambition and who disobey the truth, but who obey unrighteousness, wrath and anger.
9 There will be affliction and distress for every ?human being? who does evil, of the Jew first and of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and to the Greek.
11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.
13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.
14 For whenever the Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature the things of the law, these, although they do not have the law, are a law to themselves,
15 who show the work of the law written on their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts one after another accusing or even defending them
16 on the day when God judges the secret things of people, according to my gospel, through Christ Jesus.
17 But if you call yourself a Jew and rely on the law and boast in God
18 and know his will and approve the things that are superior, because you are instructed by the law,
19 and are confident that you yourself are a guide of the blind, a light of those in darkness,
20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of the immature, having the embodiment of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
21 Therefore, the one who teaches someone else, do you not teach yourself? The one who preaches not to steal, do you steal?
22 The one who says not to commit adultery, do you commit adultery? The one who abhors idols, do you rob temples?
23 Who boast in the law, by the transgression of the law you dishonor God!
24 For just as it is written, “The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.”
Jesus' blood does not exempt anyone from their responsibility as a christian. Christians have instructions the same way jewish had. Even if salvation is not coming out of obeying those instructions, who does not obey them intentionally, won't get any salvation at all.
Compare these two scriptures, both in the same context:
Heb 10:17 (LEB) He also says,“Their sins and their lawless deeds I will never remember again.”
18 Now where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.
and:
Heb 10:26 For if we keep on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment and a fury of fire that is about to consume the adversaries.
There is NOT any contradiction on both declarations; both are true and so: the person who received and accept forgiveness on Jesus' blood, MUST NOT "keep on sinning deliverately ..." or that person becomes an ADVERSARY even if his sins received forgiveness the first time he "received the knowledge of the truth".
Rom 2:1 (LEB) Therefore you are without excuse, O man, every one of you who passes judgment. For in that which you pass judgment on someone else, you condemn yourself, for you who are passing judgment are doing the same things.
2 Now we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who do such things.
3 But do you think this, O man who passes judgment on those who do such things, and who does the same things, that you will escape the judgment of God?
4 Or do you despise the wealth of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentence?
5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart, you are storing up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and of the revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who will reward each one according to his works:
7 to those who, by perseverance in good work, seek glory and honor and immortality, eternal life,
8 but to those who act from selfish ambition and who disobey the truth, but who obey unrighteousness, wrath and anger.
9 There will be affliction and distress for every ?human being? who does evil, of the Jew first and of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and to the Greek.
11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.
13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.
14 For whenever the Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature the things of the law, these, although they do not have the law, are a law to themselves,
15 who show the work of the law written on their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts one after another accusing or even defending them
16 on the day when God judges the secret things of people, according to my gospel, through Christ Jesus.
17 But if you call yourself a Jew and rely on the law and boast in God
18 and know his will and approve the things that are superior, because you are instructed by the law,
19 and are confident that you yourself are a guide of the blind, a light of those in darkness,
20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of the immature, having the embodiment of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
21 Therefore, the one who teaches someone else, do you not teach yourself? The one who preaches not to steal, do you steal?
22 The one who says not to commit adultery, do you commit adultery? The one who abhors idols, do you rob temples?
23 Who boast in the law, by the transgression of the law you dishonor God!
24 For just as it is written, “The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.”
Jesus' blood does not exempt anyone from their responsibility as a christian. Christians have instructions the same way jewish had. Even if salvation is not coming out of obeying those instructions, who does not obey them intentionally, won't get any salvation at all.
Compare these two scriptures, both in the same context:
Heb 10:17 (LEB) He also says,“Their sins and their lawless deeds I will never remember again.”
18 Now where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.
and:
Heb 10:26 For if we keep on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment and a fury of fire that is about to consume the adversaries.
There is NOT any contradiction on both declarations; both are true and so: the person who received and accept forgiveness on Jesus' blood, MUST NOT "keep on sinning deliverately ..." or that person becomes an ADVERSARY even if his sins received forgiveness the first time he "received the knowledge of the truth".
-
2
- Show all
Yep, I empathize with you there. For me, I see that you are clear enough to explicitly state that faith and works are required for salvation. I disagree but I respect the clarity of your stated position.
For some of your detractors, they present a circular way of arguing their point that "faith alone saves". There was a thread I started about salvation during the tribulation period and its the same circular argument that they used.
If someone who has faith in Jesus takes the mark of the beast, he is not saved in the first place since that proves he has no faith, so salvation is still by faith alone and not faith AND works.
And likewise, if someone who has faith does not "endure to the end", Matthew 24:13, it proves he was never saved in the first place, so salvation is still by faith alone.
Even though the layman understanding of the terms, "rejecting the mark of the beast" and "enduring to the end" are works, they will still insist its part of faith. There is no way to have a reasonable discussion based on such circular reasoning.
For some of your detractors, they present a circular way of arguing their point that "faith alone saves". There was a thread I started about salvation during the tribulation period and its the same circular argument that they used.
If someone who has faith in Jesus takes the mark of the beast, he is not saved in the first place since that proves he has no faith, so salvation is still by faith alone and not faith AND works.
And likewise, if someone who has faith does not "endure to the end", Matthew 24:13, it proves he was never saved in the first place, so salvation is still by faith alone.
Even though the layman understanding of the terms, "rejecting the mark of the beast" and "enduring to the end" are works, they will still insist its part of faith. There is no way to have a reasonable discussion based on such circular reasoning.
The reason some of these people cannot be engaged......that have no honesty, no integrity, skew, twist, deceive and flat twist everything so for beyond what was said that it is no longer what was said.........exactly why the MANY get cast...too busy contorting truth while rejecting the actual truth
-
1
- Show all
When people may misinterpret what you are saying, unless it is really an extreme one, there is no real need to call them such nasty names.
A more loving response would be to ask yourself, "I was very clear in what my mind is thinking, but the other person cannot read my mind and can only interpret based on the words I typed. Could I have presented my points in a clearer and better way?"
Internet debate is like that, there will always be some people that misunderstand what you are saying. In a Christian discussion especially, all of us can do "good works" by responding with patience and empathy.
A more loving response would be to ask yourself, "I was very clear in what my mind is thinking, but the other person cannot read my mind and can only interpret based on the words I typed. Could I have presented my points in a clearer and better way?"
Internet debate is like that, there will always be some people that misunderstand what you are saying. In a Christian discussion especially, all of us can do "good works" by responding with patience and empathy.
