Works and Salvation

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Bob-Carabbio

Bob-Carabbio

Well-known member
#141
Jun 24, 2020
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#141
Dino246 said:
You've done a marvelous job of confusing a simple issue.

Here's the simple version:

We don't get saved by our own effort, period.

Once we are saved, we are empowered by the Holy Spirit to participate in the work of the kingdom.
Click to expand...
BINGO!!!!! "Works'" are the PRODUCT of being Born Again, and not the CAUSE thereof.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#143
Mar 1, 2022
18,892
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#143
Inquisitor said:
Your making claims and now your asking questions.

Both the inward sealing for salvation is first then, the fruit will appear over some
period of time.
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What claim have I made?

There are some claims I'm going to make, but I was asking questions to understand your position before doing so.

Another question if you are inclined to answer: John the Baptist said Jesus would baptize with fire and the Spirit. What is the baptism of the Spirit John is speaking about?
 
P

PaulThomson

Well-known member
#145
Oct 29, 2023
3,467
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#145
Cameron143 said:
What claim have I made?

There are some claims I'm going to make, but I was asking questions to understand your position before doing so.

Another question if you are inclined to answer: John the Baptist said Jesus would baptize with fire and the Spirit. What is the baptism of the Spirit John is speaking about?
Click to expand...
John is talking about two baptisms. Baptism with the Spirit; and baptism with fire.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#147
Mar 1, 2022
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#147
PaulThomson said:
What do you mean by "an inward operation of the Spirit" and "an outward operation of the Spirit"?
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You see throughout the book of Acts the Spirit falling on believers, and that this manifestation of the Spirit is noticed by those in attendance. This is an outward manifestation of the Spirit.
The baptism that the Spirit performs to place a believer into Christ is an inward work that is unobservable.
 
I

Inquisitor

Well-known member
#149
Mar 17, 2022
2,859
845
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#149
Cameron143 said:
What claim have I made?

There are some claims I'm going to make, but I was asking questions to understand your position before doing so.

Another question if you are inclined to answer: John the Baptist said Jesus would baptize with fire and the Spirit. What is the baptism of the Spirit John is speaking about?
Click to expand...
Baptism with fire and the Holy Spirit occurred on the day of Pentecost.

Notable is the fact that the day of Pentecost took place after Jesus rose.

The apostles believed in Jesus before that day of Pentecost.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#150
Mar 1, 2022
18,892
6,485
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#150
Bob-Carabbio said:
Chuckle!! Since the thing that MAKES a person a Christian is the Holy Spirit indwelling them, it's an INWARD thing, obviously.
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This is a common misunderstanding. Seals are placed on the outside of letters, and authenticate what is inside.
If the Spirit falling on a believer was an inward manifestation of the Spirit, why are all present aware of it?
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#151
Mar 1, 2022
18,892
6,485
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#151
Inquisitor said:
Baptism with fire and the Holy Spirit occurred on the day of Pentecost.

Notable is the fact that the day of Pentecost took place after Jesus rose.

The apostles believed in Jesus before that day of Pentecost.
Click to expand...
Sure. The baptism with the Holy Spirit is the promise of the Father, that Jesus spoke of.
 
I

Inquisitor

Well-known member
#152
Mar 17, 2022
2,859
845
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#152
Cameron143 said:
You see throughout the book of Acts the Spirit falling on believers, and that this manifestation of the Spirit is noticed by those in attendance. This is an outward manifestation of the Spirit.
The baptism that the Spirit performs to place a believer into Christ is an inward work that is unobservable.
Click to expand...
The outward appearance of the Holy Spirit is simultaneously with that inner conviction.

Both occur at the same instant but the outward manifestation is much slower to be
observed.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#153
Mar 1, 2022
18,892
6,485
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#153
Inquisitor said:
The outward appearance of the Holy Spirit is simultaneously with that inner conviction.

Both occur at the same instant but the outward manifestation is much slower to be
observed.
Click to expand...
Everyone saw the outward manifestation of the Spirit immediately. That's the reason Peter said who could forbid the family of Cornelius from being baptized. The same Spirit that fell on the Apostles at Pentecost had fallen on those of Cornelius's household.
 
B

Bruce_Leiter

Active member
#154
Feb 17, 2023
427
191
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#154
Dino246 said:
You've done a marvelous job of confusing a simple issue.

Here's the simple version:

We don't get saved by our own effort, period.

Once we are saved, we are empowered by the Holy Spirit to participate in the work of the kingdom.
Click to expand...
An excellent summary, "B"!!
 
I

Inquisitor

Well-known member
#155
Mar 17, 2022
2,859
845
113
#155
Cameron143 said:
Sure. The baptism with the Holy Spirit is the promise of the Father, that Jesus spoke of.
Click to expand...
Once again, you cannot confess Jesus without hearing the gospel.

You cannot confess Jesus without the Holy Spirit.

No one has the ministries of the Holy Spirit without the Holy Spirit.

No one loves others with the divine love that Jesus had.

You receive the Holy Spirit when you first believe in Jesus after hearing
the gospel of Jesus Christ.
 
I

Inquisitor

Well-known member
#156
Mar 17, 2022
2,859
845
113
#156
Cameron143 said:
Everyone saw the outward manifestation of the Spirit immediately. That's the reason Peter said who could forbid the family of Cornelius from being baptized. The same Spirit that fell on the Apostles at Pentecost had fallen on those of Cornelius's household.
Click to expand...
Are you saying that the household of Cornelius already had the Holy Spirit?
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#157
Mar 1, 2022
18,892
6,485
113
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#157
Inquisitor said:
Once again, you cannot confess Jesus without hearing the gospel.

You cannot confess Jesus without the Holy Spirit.

No one has the ministries of the Holy Spirit without the Holy Spirit.

No one loves others with the divine love that Jesus had.

You receive the Holy Spirit when you first believe in Jesus after hearing
the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Click to expand...
Let's examine your claims.
Peter preaches a sermon the day of Pentecost. In verse 38, he tells some of the hearers to repent and be baptized.

What happened in verse 37 leading up to this?
 
I

Inquisitor

Well-known member
#158
Mar 17, 2022
2,859
845
113
#158
Cameron143 said:
Everyone saw the outward manifestation of the Spirit immediately. That's the reason Peter said who could forbid the family of Cornelius from being baptized. The same Spirit that fell on the Apostles at Pentecost had fallen on those of Cornelius's household.
Click to expand...
When the apostles on the day of Pentecost received the Holy Spirit.

Was there a visible authentication of that reception of the Holy Spirit?

Were the apostles sealed in their salvation, confirmed by Jesus on the
day of Pentecost?
 
I

Inquisitor

Well-known member
#159
Mar 17, 2022
2,859
845
113
#159
Cameron143 said:
Let's examine your claims.
Peter preaches a sermon the day of Pentecost. In verse 38, he tells some of the hearers to repent and be baptized.

What happened in verse 37 leading up to this?
Click to expand...
Will get back to you.

Need to do an early shopping run.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#160
Mar 1, 2022
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#160
Inquisitor said:
Are you saying that the household of Cornelius already had the Holy Spirit?
Click to expand...
That's a complicated question and depends what you mean by having the Holy Spirit.
The reason I began my questions as I did was because I was trying to distinguish between the indwelling of the Spirit referred to in 1 Corinthians 12:13 and the baptism of the Spirit seen in Ephesians 1:13,14.
 
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