Works and Salvation

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Cameron143

Cameron143

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#161
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#161
Inquisitor said:
When the apostles on the day of Pentecost received the Holy Spirit.

Was there a visible authentication of that reception of the Holy Spirit?

Were the apostles sealed in their salvation, confirmed by Jesus on the
day of Pentecost?
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Yes, the outward manifestation of the Spirit was the authentication of the inward reality and indwelling of the Spirit.
 
B

Bruce_Leiter

Active member
#162
Feb 17, 2023
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#162
Soyeong said:
In Ephesians 2:8-10, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so while Paul denied that that we can earn our salvation as the result of our works lest anyone should boast, doing good works is nevertheless intrinsically part of our salvation from not doing good works.

The content of a gift can itself be the experience of doing something, again, such as giving someone the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari for an hour, where the gift requires someone to do the work of driving it in order to have that experience, but where doing that work has nothing to do with trying to earn the gift the opportunity to drive it as a wage. Likewise, the content of God's gift of eternal life is the experience of knowing Him and Jesus (John 17:3) and the gift of God's law is His instructions for how to have that experience, not for how to earn eternal life as a wage (Exodus 33:13, Matthew 7:23).


There are many verses that support that the way to have eternal life is by obeying God's commandments, such as Deuteronomy 30:11-16, Deuteronomy 32:46-47, Proverbs 3:18, Proverbs 6:23, Matthew 19:17, Luke 10:25-28, Romans 2:6-7, Romans 6:19-23, and Revelation 22:14, and there are many verses like John 3:16 and 5:24 that say that the way to have internal life is by believing in Jesus, which means that God's commandments are His instructions for how to believe in Jesus, which is also why there are many other verses that connect our belief in God with our obedience to him.


What about them?


Indeed, there has been much discussion on this topic, so I would not have started a thread on it if I did not think that I was raising an important distinction that resolves this issue.
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Ah, if we could obey the whole Bible perfectly the way those passages say, God would save us. HOWEVER, we can't because nobody's perfect. Jesus was and is perfect; it was his perfection and his death that saves us. His resurrection enables us to live a life of good works. So, it's all to his credit, not ours, from beginning to end.
 
I

Inquisitor

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#163
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#163
Cameron143 said:
Let's examine your claims.
Peter preaches a sermon the day of Pentecost. In verse 38, he tells some of the hearers to repent and be baptized.

What happened in verse 37 leading up to this?
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Nothing about the baptism of fire and nothing about the manifestation
of the Holy Spirit. I see not gifts of the Holy Spirit, no ministries of the
Holy Spirit.

Was anyone in verse 37 confessing Jesus?

Peter told them to repent because they had not.

Peter told them that they would receive the Holy Spirit.

Your reference to verse Acts 2:37, actually supports my position.

Your shooting yourself in the foot, Cameron.
 
GRACE_ambassador

GRACE_ambassador

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Feb 22, 2021
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#166
Cameron143 said:
That's a complicated question and depends what you mean by having the Holy Spirit.
The reason I began my questions as I did was because I was trying to distinguish between the indwelling of the Spirit referred to in 1 Corinthians 12:13 and the baptism of the Spirit seen in Ephesians 1:13,14.
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This could be a helpful 'explanation', eh?:

Three baptisms Rightly Divided!

Amen.
 
I

Inquisitor

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#167
Mar 17, 2022
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#167
Bruce_Leiter said:
Ah, if we could obey the whole Bible perfectly the way those passages say, God would save us. HOWEVER, we can't because nobody's perfect. Jesus was and is perfect; it was his perfection and his death that saves us. His resurrection enables us to live a life of good works. So, it's all to his credit, not ours, from beginning to end.
Click to expand...
I think there is an astronomical difference between the life of Jesus, and
the lives of modern Christians.

'nobody's perfect'

Most Christians are still at the starting blocks.
 
I

Inquisitor

Well-known member
#169
Mar 17, 2022
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#169
Cameron143 said:
That's a complicated question and depends what you mean by having the Holy Spirit.
The reason I began my questions as I did was because I was trying to distinguish between the indwelling of the Spirit referred to in 1 Corinthians 12:13 and the baptism of the Spirit seen in Ephesians 1:13,14.
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Talk about splitting hairs, you need a pair of reading glasses.

Ephesians 1:13
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation.
When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit.

Your other quotation (1 Corinthians 12:13) is Paul talking to the corporate body, the Corinthian church.

All the Corinthians were already baptized in the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body, whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free
and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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#170
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#170
Inquisitor said:
Nothing about the baptism of fire and nothing about the manifestation
of the Holy Spirit. I see not gifts of the Holy Spirit, no ministries of the
Holy Spirit.

Was anyone in verse 37 confessing Jesus?

Peter told them to repent because they had not.

Peter told them that they would receive the Holy Spirit.

Your reference to verse Acts 2:37, actually supports my position.

Your shooting yourself in the foot, Cameron.
Click to expand...
Thankfully I have 2. I'll hop while I explain.
There's alot going on inside the individuals in verse 37. They heard...their minds are engaged. They were pricked in their hearts...their hearts were engaged. They said...what shall we do?...their wills are engaged. Who or what has engaged with them? Why did 3,000 respond when myriads more did not? Why do they respond in faith when so many others failed to?
 
I

Inquisitor

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#172
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#172
Cameron143 said:
Thankfully I have 2. I'll hop while I explain.
There's alot going on inside the individuals in verse 37. They heard...their minds are engaged. They were pricked in their hearts...their hearts were engaged. They said...what shall we do?...their wills are engaged. Who or what has engaged with them? Why did 3,000 respond when myriads more did not? Why do they respond in faith when so many others failed to?
Click to expand...
Because they heard the gospel and that is what agitated them!
 
I

Inquisitor

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#174
Cameron143 said:
They were saved long before that. Are you suggesting the Holy Spirit wasn't already indwelling them?
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I don't have to say anything.

Peter said they had not repented or received the Holy Spirit.

They certainly did not know Jesus or even believed in Jesus.

Without the good news you have nothing to work with.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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#175
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#175
Inquisitor said:
Talk about splitting hairs, you need a pair of reading glasses.

Ephesians 1:13
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation.
When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit.

Your other quotation (1 Corinthians 12:13) is Paul talking to the corporate body, the Corinthian church.

All the Corinthians were already baptized in the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body, whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free
and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.
Click to expand...
First I'm shooting, now I'm splitting. I wish I was so active.

Included in Christ is the work of the Spirit placing one into the body.
Sealing with the Spirit is the work of Christ employing the Spirit.
The first is what 1 Corinthians 12:13 speaks to. It is nonexperiential and unobservable. The second is what Jesus spoke of as the promise of the Father that Jesus and Joel spoke of. It is what Ephesians 1:13-14 speaks of. It is experiential and manifest to all.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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#176
Inquisitor said:
I don't have to say anything.

Peter said they had not repented or received the Holy Spirit.

They certainly did not know Jesus or even believed in Jesus.

Without the good news you have nothing to work with.
Click to expand...
I was speaking of the disciples.
Do you believe the disciples were saved the day of Pentecost?
 
I

Inquisitor

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#178
Mar 17, 2022
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#178
Cameron143 said:
First I'm shooting, now I'm splitting. I wish I was so active.

Included in Christ is the work of the Spirit placing one into the body.
Sealing with the Spirit is the work of Christ employing the Spirit.
The first is what 1 Corinthians 12:13 speaks to. It is nonexperiential and unobservable. The second is what Jesus spoke of as the promise of the Father that Jesus and Joel spoke of. It is what Ephesians 1:13-14 speaks of. It is experiential and manifest to all.
Click to expand...
I disagree.
 
I

Inquisitor

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#179
Cameron143 said:
If it was simply the gospel, why wasn't everyone there that day agitated as well?
Click to expand...
Every time Paul, Peter, and John, preached the gospel there was usually some
level of agitation.

Sometimes the agitation was brutal and against them.

When the gospel is preached it does not return void.

Not everyone responds at the same time.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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#180
Mar 1, 2022
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#180
Inquisitor said:
I disagree.
Click to expand...
I know. But something manifest to all is not inward, but outward. Seals themselves are placed on the outside, and authenticate what is inside. But they are never themselves inside. The same mark may be placed inside before sealing, but it isn't a seal by virtue of it being internal.
Thus, what is inside comes first, or there is nothing to seal.
 
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