Which works justify?

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Nov 28, 2023
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@studier, I agree…faith and obedience cannot be separated. Just like faith and works..they go had in glove. A good biblical example is Naaman in 2 Kings 5.

One is righteous who does righteousness (1 Jn. 3:7). Since all of God’s commands are righteousness (Psalms 119:172), then one is righteous before God when he practices what God instructs him to do. His life is a pattern of ongoing righteous living.
— Roger D. Campbell

Believing is something we ourselves do (Acts 16:30-31). When the Jews asked Peter what shall we do, he said to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins (Acts 2:37-38). Those things would be obedience to the authority of Christ (Mt. 28:18).

People want to separate faith from and obedience, and that’s impossible.
Yes, faith and obedience go hand in hand. God calls us to believe certain things in the Scriptures and God calls us to obey certain things. God calling us to believe something in His Word is a form of obedience, just as God calling us to preach the Word is a form of obedience.

As for faith and works: Well, the way I understand "the faith" that we are to have as Christians is two-fold.

#1. Faith Type #1 (Belief in certain things that God calls us to have). You are to first believe the saving gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. This is believing that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and risen the third day for our salvation. This is how we first get saved, which is why Paul says we are saved by God's grace without works. We see Cornelius and his household believed a form of this saving message and they received the Holy Spirit (Which would have been the down payment of their inheritance) (Note: This does not mean that a believer who receives the Spirit or downpayment of their inheritance can later fall away due to justifying sin or disobedience toward God). Other beliefs God calls us to have are: "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear." (Hebrews 11:3). We are to have faith in his blood (Romans 3:25). We must believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, which is a part of one of His commandments (1 John 3:23). If we come to God, we must believe that God is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him (See: Hebrews 11:6). In addition to believing the gospel, there are beliefs we must have that are salvific. For example: Telling others that the resurrection is past already can overthrow the faith of others (2 Timothy 2:18). These are simply beliefs that God calls us to have and not works (Or works of faith).

#2. Faith Type #2, which is the 2nd step of our Faith (Works of Faith and Cleansing ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit). These are labors or works that a Christian does that God calls us to do according to His Word, which is in line with the New Covenant or New Testament. These are actions. For example: We are to preach the gospel. Jesus warns that if we turn back after having put our hand on the plow (preaching or spreading the gospel message), we are not fit for the Kingdom of God. We are commanded to love God and love our neighbor. In Luke 10:25-37, we learn that helping the poor beat-up guy on the side of the road is akin to loving your neighbor, which is a part of inheriting eternal life. In Matthew 25, we are to help the poor and unfortunate. If refuse to do so in this life, then we will go away into a fiery punishment. We are told to love our brother as a part of the faith (1 John 3:23). This is not just saying, "I love you" but it involves showing that we love them in our actions, like helping them if they need financial help, or physical help if they are sick, etcetera. The person who hates his brother has no eternal life abiding in them (1 John 3:15). He that does righteousness and loves his brother is of God (1 John 3:10).

The best way to simplify this is that...

#1. Believers are first saved by God's grace through a belief in the gospel message (which is a process of salvation without works)
(Ephesians 2:8-9) (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).
This is how we GET saved. It is our "Initial Salvation." We are to believe that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and risen the third day for our salvation. Note: Calling upon the name of the Lord Jesus, seeking forgiveness of your past life of sin (Romans 10:9, and Romans 10:13) would not really be a work in my view. One is simply praying to the Lord Jesus and throwing themselves down before the mercy of their Lord and God for the forgiveness of one's past life of sin.

#2. God has chosen us to salvation through the Sanctification of the Spirit (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14). This a the next step of our faith whereby we are to live a holy life as a part of God's plan of salvation. This can only happen after a person is first saved by God's grace without works (Which is by faith). Again, Sanctification is the second step of our faith. 2 Corinthians 7:1 says we are to cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. This is obeying God and His commands under the New Covenant. Now, it needs to be stated that Christians do not have to keep the Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, holy days, dietary laws, animal sacrifices, etcetera. That is all a part of the Old Covenant that does not apply to believers today. We are not under the Law (i.e., the Laws of Moses). Although certain laws have repeated themselves in the New Covenant like, "do not murder," "do not commit adultery, "do not covet," etcetera.

Most believe in "Perpetual Belief Alone Salvationism," which is unbiblical. They believe that all you need to do is just believe in Jesus or the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 in order to be saved. Nothing else is required. These believers need to plainly believe James 2:17, James 2:24, Galatians 6:8-9, and 1 Timothy 5:8.

While not as popular, others hold to "Perpetual Works Alone Salvationism," which is also unbiblical. These believers deny that you can ever be initially saved by simply believing the gospel message without water baptism. While we must be water baptized at some point in our faith, it is not for salvation. They believe you must continue to do works of faith after this to be saved. However, Luke 18:9-14 refutes this kind of belief. In short, they never gave God's grace his glory or do ever in their life by a simple belief alone in Christ. Remember, Cornelius and his family were saved before they were even water baptized. The thief on the cross was saved without doing any kind of works of faith that we Christians are called to do (Which is salvific). The thief simply appeared to be begging for mercy in asking Jesus to remember him when Jesus came into His Kingdom. Jesus said He would be with Him in paradise in response of this plea.


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Nov 28, 2023
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Most believers unfortunately will be in for a rude awakening come Judgment day (See: Matthew 13:41-42, and compare it with John 8:34-35).


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Blade

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Nov 19, 2019
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To touch on what Gideo300 said "By faith Abraham, when he was called [by God], obeyed by going to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went, not knowing where he was going." Faith without works is dead.

See its one thing to believe what God said (promises) but the work is acting on what God said as father Abraham did. I am justified by faith " know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. " "Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ".

Its not what I believe or anyone else. Read what GOD said in His word and just believe. If He said it OT NT it will always happen. Psalm 91 read it.. do you believe with the heart or your head. Or say Isa 41:10.

Not tied to this but.. the song by Keith Green "Asleep in the light"
 
Nov 28, 2023
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To touch on what Gideo300 said "By faith Abraham, when he was called [by God], obeyed by going to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went, not knowing where he was going." Faith without works is dead.

See its one thing to believe what God said (promises) but the work is acting on what God said as father Abraham did. I am justified by faith " know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. " "Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ".

Its not what I believe or anyone else. Read what GOD said in His word and just believe. If He said it OT NT it will always happen. Psalm 91 read it.. do you believe with the heart or your head. Or say Isa 41:10.

Not tied to this but.. the song by Keith Green "Asleep in the light"
Some people just believe certain verses in the Bible, but they do not believe the whole counsel of God’s Word.



….
 
Jan 27, 2025
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We have to remember that not all works are the same. In order to get justified, there must be some kind of works that are involved in justification (Jms. 2:21-25). But these works are not law-based, merit-based, or of our righteousness-based. Thus, they would have to be grace-based. Grace-based works refers to an act (or actions) that is required and approved by God, which one does through or by faith rooted in God’s grace. The works that justified Abraham and Rahab were approved by God (since works of the law or own righteousness cannot justify), and they expressed their faith in obedience to be justified by those works that was rooted in or from God’s grace. Another example is when God told Noah to build an ark..that required action/work on Noah’s part, but it wasn’t of him in the sense he earned or invented the ark. It was of God who gave Noah grace to be saved, which would be building an ark, which was approved by God. Thus, it was by God’s grace.

Another example is Naaman when he went and dipped 7x in the Jordan River to be healed of his leprosy (2 Kings 5:14). God’s amazing grace was in the healing. It was a gift. Naaman was not so good that God owed him a way to be cleansed. The offer was made by God, but Naaman had to express his faith in having a faith that worked/obeyed. Thus, dipping 7x in the Jordan River required obedience/work, but it was rooted in grace and faith because God’s grace extended the way for Naaman to be cleansed.
 

Sipsey

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Sep 27, 2018
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Here is a little excerpt from Mr. Wiersby. I think he summarizes quite well the words of James, within their context.:

JAMES 2
If you have true saving faith, you will practice impartiality (vv. 1-13) and see people in terms of character and not clothing. You will not cater to the rich or ignore the poor, but you will love each person for the sake of Jesus Christ. Christian love simply means treating others the way the Lord treats you and doing it in the power of the Spirit.

True saving faith is also seen in activity (vv. 14-26). Faith is not something you only talk about; it is something that motivates your life so that you think of others and serve them. Abraham was saved by faith (Ge 15:6), but he proved that faith by obeying God and offering his son (Ge 22). Rahab was saved by trusting God (Heb 11:31), but she showed the reality of her faith by protecting the spies (Jos 2; 6:17-27).

James and Paul do not contradict each other (Ro 4:1-5; 5:1); they complement each other. We are justified (declared righteous) before God by faith, but we are justified before men by works. God can see our faith, but men can see only our works.
 
Jan 27, 2025
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Being justified before men by our works fails.

Lk. 16:14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him.15 And He said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.

Being justified before God by works of His devising… or works which He approve of does not.

James 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it wasaccounted to him for righteousness.”And he was called the friend of God.24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.25 ¶ Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
 

Sipsey

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Sep 27, 2018
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Being justified before men by our works fails.

Lk. 16:14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him.15 And He said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.

Being justified before God by works of His devising… or works which He approve of does not.

James 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it wasaccounted to him for righteousness.”And he was called the friend of God.24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.25 ¶ Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
You are simply repeating yourself. God, in His Omniscience, already knows and sees our future works, therefore they are simply the outworking of our imputed righteousness. They are a testimony before man and God. If our actions cannot communicate the Gospel, our words surely canNot.
 
Jan 27, 2025
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You are simply repeating yourself. God, in His Omniscience, already knows and sees our future works, therefore they are simply the outworking of our imputed righteousness. They are a testimony before man and God. If our actions cannot communicate the Gospel, our words surely canNot.
The works one does by faith to be justified by are not of ourselves (Jms. 2). If one does not do them they will not be justified.
 

Sipsey

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Sep 27, 2018
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The works one does by faith to be justified by are not of ourselves (Jms. 2). If one does not do them they will not be justified.
Never has God saved (Justified) someone that their works didn’t accompany their faith. That’s all James is saying, don’t over complicate a simple issue.
 
Jan 27, 2025
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Now that we have reached an agreement, the works that justified Abraham and Rahab, and the works that justify us (of course, faith was and is involved) would have to be before God (Jms. 2), but it would not be works of the law or of our righteousness (Rom. 4:2; Titus 3:5; Eph. 2:9), as those works does not justify before God. So, since James says Abraham was justified by works (Jms. 2:21, 24), and since Paul says if Abraham was justified by works he could have something to boast about, but not before God (Rom. 4:2), then the kind of works that James talks about Abraham being justified by would have to works that was approved by and before God, since no other works could justify us.
 
Nov 14, 2024
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What was said is what is written/Scripture; what was/is meant is the reader's interpretation.
Why Luther's interpretation was problematic is not said/written, which makes a serious discussion difficult.
Since Luther's accurate CONVICTION lead by the Holy Spirit was that SALVATION / Being Born Again was by FAITH, and not religious activity / Works of righteousness. Melancthon, however, saw the REST of the story i.e. that Being Born again would of it's intrinsic nature PRODUCE good works, which contributed NOTHING to the process of salvation, but were the inevitable RESULT of it.
 
Jan 27, 2025
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Since Luther's accurate CONVICTION lead by the Holy Spirit was that SALVATION / Being Born Again was by FAITH, and not religious activity / Works of righteousness. Melancthon, however, saw the REST of the story i.e. that Being Born again would of it's intrinsic nature PRODUCE good works, which contributed NOTHING to the process of salvation, but were the inevitable RESULT of it.
I agree with Paul that good works don’t save (2 Tim. 1:9).

I agree with Peter in Acts 10:35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.

I agree with John in 1 John 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.
 
Dec 20, 2023
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I'll answer like this...

If you know what is wrong and what seperates you from Jesus, and choose to sin then you are seperated from your saviour.
Until you repent and ask for forgiveness you remain seperated. While seperated you are not saved.
Does this mean that we must be saved over and over - up to 1,000,000 times in our lifetime here on earth?
 

Gideon300

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Mar 18, 2021
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Ah! Agree, it certainly does. Like many writers of the time, he was very aware of what some call the hidden hand behind most major world events. H.G. Wells and Aldous Huxley are probably the standout examples. Seemingly Wells was a true believer/disciple, Huxley was born into one of the families involved and often exhibited a horrified fascination, with how people could be conditioned into accepting what was to their detriment, as a good.

Really recommend reading his Brave New World Revisited, it's analysis, not fiction and incredibly relevant to where we are now.
I read the original "Brave New World". Along with Orwell's "1984" and "Animal Farm" it seems to be prophetic in a number of ways. "1984" was supposed to be a warning. Too many leaders took it as an instruction manual for 21st century government, including most supposedly democratic governments.
 
Feb 24, 2009
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Can you put some scripture behind that because last I read they are called the ten commandments not the ten suggestions.

You only have two choices....LIFE AND DEATH. Pick one.
Deuteronomy 30: 10 - 14, 19
10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.

11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.

12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
No one can keep all the commandments completely. We all sin in the process.

But because ive been freed from the penalty of the law, I can then choose to follow the commands thru New Testament church service.
 
Oct 11, 2023
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James 2:23-26 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
While it is true that Abraham believed God, so he was justified (Genesis 15:6, it is also true that he believed God, so he obeyed God's command to offer Isaac (Hebrews 11:17), so the same faith by which he was justified was also expressed by being an obeyer of God, but he did not earn his justification as the result of his works (Romans 4:1-5). In James 2:21-24, it quotes Genesis 15:6 to support saying that Abraham was justified by his works when he offered Isaac, that his faith was active along with his works, and his faith completed his works, so he was justified by his works insofar as they were expressing his faith, but not insofar as they were earning a wage.
 
Dec 20, 2023
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If we're newly created for good works, then how can good works not be required? And why couch this in language like "legalistic"?
Sounds like you are the one who is couching! Good works are a result of our being changed and they are not required to maintain our justification. Our justification comes from what Christ has done.

In Isaiah 7 we read this:
10 Again the Lord spoke to Ahaz: 11 “Ask a sign of the Lord your God; let it be deep as Sheol or high as heaven.” 12 But Ahaz said, “I will not ask, and I will not put the Lord to the test.” 13 And he said, “Hear then, O house of David! Is it too little for you to weary men, that you weary my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

The Lord ask Ahaz to have faith in him. He even ask Ahaz to ask for anything as a sign. However, Ahaz desired to put his faith in things that could be seen, not the unseen. Ahaz proclaimed “I will not ask, and I will not put the Lord to the test.” Even though he had just been told to ask. In this, he demonstrated that his faith was like that of the Pharisees!

We do the exact same thing when we use God's word out of context!
 
Jan 27, 2025
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While it is true that Abraham believed God, so he was justified (Genesis 15:6, it is also true that he believed God, so he obeyed God's command to offer Isaac (Hebrews 11:17), so the same faith by which he was justified was also expressed by being an obeyer of God, but he did not earn his justification as the result of his works (Romans 4:1-5). In James 2:21-24, it quotes Genesis 15:6 to support saying that Abraham was justified by his works when he offered Isaac, that his faith was active along with his works, and his faith completed his works, so he was justified by his works insofar as they were expressing his faith, but not insofar as they were earning a wage.
I agree he did not earn anything. I have stated elsewhere obedience doesn’t earn salvation or justification.