Which works justify?

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Gideon300

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The original post clearly used scripture which states Abraham was justified by his works but you guys don't even believe in what's written. Use that beautiful brain GOD gave you. Faith WITHOUT works is dead. You will be judge according to your works so how can yall say this??
Grace is only given to those who keep the commandments that is what Paul is teaching. Before Paul was converted he kept the law but he was lost since he didn't believe in Jesus, you need both. Jesus is the law giver and you need to walk in his law.

Revelation 20: 12
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Jesus replied, “The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent.” John 6:29

What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has discovered? If Abraham was indeed justified by works, he had something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Romans 4:1-3

Your theology has no scriptural basis.
 

Gideon300

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I'll answer like this...

If you know what is wrong and what seperates you from Jesus, and choose to sin then you are seperated from your saviour.
Until you repent and ask for forgiveness you remain seperated. While seperated you are not saved.

We need to be born again.. walk in the Spirit. Die to self and live for Jesus.

Jesus knows all things so there is no hiding what is in our hearts.

By faithfully surrendering self to Jesus, which is being born again, you will naturally obey. But if we sin we can quickly repent.. Jesus came to save us FROM SIN not IN SIN
Are you saying that if we sin we got to hell? Absurd. What part of "eternal life" is not eternal? Sin breaks fellowship. It does not break relationship. No one can be unborn again.
 
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Jesus’ sacrifice did bring us salvation, and it is by grace that He did (2 Tim. 1:9; Eph. 2:9). It is by faith we respond to the gospel call (2 Thess. 2:14; Acts 2:39), and it is through Jesus, whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God (Rom. 5:2)
Well expressed, i'm a logical knowledge seeker too, sadly, many seem to view discussion as a blood sport instead.
 
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Are you saying that if we sin we got to hell? Absurd. What part of "eternal life" is not eternal? Sin breaks fellowship. It does not break relationship. No one can be unborn again.
I really like G.K.C too, have you read his Eugenics and Other Evils? Even more relevant today, prescient and bone chilling.
 

Gideon300

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I really like G.K.C too, have you read his Eugenics and Other Evils? Even more relevant today, prescient and bone chilling.
I've not read Chesterton. I came across the quote and I thought it encapsulated a truth that escapes too many believers.
 
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I've not read Chesterton. I came across the quote and I thought it encapsulated a truth that escapes too many believers.
Ah! Agree, it certainly does. Like many writers of the time, he was very aware of what some call the hidden hand behind most major world events. H.G. Wells and Aldous Huxley are probably the standout examples. Seemingly Wells was a true believer/disciple, Huxley was born into one of the families involved and often exhibited a horrified fascination, with how people could be conditioned into accepting what was to their detriment, as a good.

Really recommend reading his Brave New World Revisited, it's analysis, not fiction and incredibly relevant to where we are now.
 
Yeah.. but not because I have to..but because im freed to be able to. I could not keep the sabbath and face the consequences with God..but it wouldn't be undoing my salvation.

New Testament service to God..not Old Testament service.

New Testament pattern to serve God in His churches. Not following the OT Laws and service in the synagogue .

Galatians and Hebrews addresses this.
Can you put some scripture behind that because last I read they are called the ten commandments not the ten suggestions.
Ooh, can't agree with all your comments but hey! I see it as it's Jesus' sacrifice alone which actually brings salvation but we have some agency/choice in our lives too.
You only have two choices....LIFE AND DEATH. Pick one.
Deuteronomy 30: 10 - 14, 19
10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.

11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.

12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
 

studier

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The problem with the black and white approach is that it is not real.
But the black and white approach IMO is what you said about Abraham.

Doing what the trusted Dr. (God) prescribes includes in conditional language as in 1John1 re: acknowledging our sins to receive His cleansing and forgiveness.

IOW, I don't have the in and out perspective you speak of. This is saying nothing re: what I may think of loss of salvation. The walk in the light and cleansing of Christ's blood in our walk is based in doing what God says - IOW continual Faith-Obedience including acknowledging our failures.

If we err in a matter, then in that matter we are not in faith because we are not in obedience, but we can still be in the Faith because the Faith has provision for cleansing and forgiveness of sin. IOW, this is a very dynamic and practical relationship and walk we are in, and this is the fellowship John is describing in 1John.
 
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Can you put some scripture behind that because last I read they are called the ten commandments not the ten suggestions.

You only have two choices....LIFE AND DEATH. Pick one.
Deuteronomy 30: 10 - 14, 19
10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.

11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.

12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Erm, i have already made that choice and like most here, think the Lord will do what he says on the tin.
 
Romans 2: 13
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.
Jesus replied, “The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent.” John 6:29

What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has discovered? If Abraham was indeed justified by works, he had something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Romans 4:1-3

Your theology has no scriptural basis.
I put scripture behind everything. If you keep reading in that same chapter Paul stated in verse 5:
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

You believe on GOD by doing what he said because Jesus is the only one that can justify the ungodly. Why is Paul saying this because during that time many Israelites kept the law but they obviously hated Jesus in that case they will boast about themselves and there many examples of this especially with the pharisees.

Context is important especially with Paul writings.
 
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I would say both. We are to believe and obey the gospel to be saved (Rom. 1:16; 2 Thess. 1:8)
We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believes.. (Romans 1:16)

and we are to continue to walk in the light (1 Jn. 1:7)
In regard to 1 John 1:7, believers were (past tense) once/formerly darkness but are now light in the Lord and we are to walk as children of light. (Ephesians 5:8) Walking in darkness is 'descriptive' of children of the devil. Walking in the light is 'descriptive' of children of God.

Only those who are saved/believers are in the light.

Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.

2 Corinthians 6:14 - Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?

1 Thessalonians 5:4 - But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

and follow Jesus (Jn. 10:27-28) because we have been saved.
Yes, because we have been saved. In John 10:27-28, Jesus' sheep hear His voice, and Jesus knows them, and they follow Him, and Jesus gives them eternal life and they shall never perish or be snatched from His hand. In contrast with those who do not believe and are not His sheep. (John 10:25-26)
 

studier

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Once again, in James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

I can see you've put some effort into learning on this topic. Weren't you reading GES some time ago?

I've always had an issue with this concept of "shown to be righteous". Shown to whom? Men? You posted earlier a list of definitions for dikaioō but I don't recall seeing the source reference. Would you mind providing it?

So, a few practical questions:
  • Is there more than one justification all Christians go through?
  • If there are 2 or more justifications, then are those after the first of any importance?
After this I'll likely want to ask what "works" are in Rom4:2 and Eph2:9.

cc: @Believer08
 

studier

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We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believes.. (Romans 1:16)
So you're saying obedience follows belief and is not parallel to belief, correct?
 
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I can see you've put some effort into learning on this topic. Weren't you reading GES some time ago?
GES?

I've always had an issue with this concept of "shown to be righteous". Shown to whom? Men?
Before men and God.

You posted earlier a list of definitions for dikaioō but I don't recall seeing the source reference. Would you mind providing it?
https://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/dikaioo.html - See post #246.

So, a few practical questions:
  • Is there more than one justification all Christians go through?
  • If there are 2 or more justifications, then are those after the first of any importance?
Believers are accounted as righteous by faith (Romans 4:2-6) and shown to be righteous by works. (James 2:21, 24)

After this I'll likely want to ask what "works" are in Rom4:2 and Eph2:9.
Abraham was before the law of Moses and Paul does not merely limit works to specific works of the law yet adherence to the law or any human effort through deeds cannot merit salvation. The saved by "these" works (good works) and just not "those" works (works of the law) argument is bogus.
 
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So you're saying obedience follows belief and is not parallel to belief, correct?
We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16; 10:16) which is not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience/works which "follow" and are produced out of faith. (Ephesians 2:10)
 
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I don’t have the problem Luther had, as I don’t believe in faith alone, nor do I believe in works alone. I believe what James said about faith and works.
You believe that we are saved by BOTH faith AND works (and so do Roman Catholics and Mormons) in contradiction to Scripture. (Romans 4:2-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)

James never said that we are saved by works. In James 2:14, we read of one who SAYS/CLAIMS he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!
 
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I appreciate your response. When you sin, are you still saved? Has the blood of Christ ever become insufficient for your justification?
reconciled by the blood as if never sinned
Col 1:21-23, I stand in thanksgiving and praise to Daddy, PaPa, Father by Son's done work
Not saved by the death, only reconciled. That had to get done first, before any new Life came in from Daddy's Holy Spirit to live in and through people. Jesus, had to go to a willing death once for us all to be reconciled, before any new life, could ever get given, and only from Father, this is done, through Son, once for us all. All are reconciled, not all yet are saved.
The risen Life saves, as Father gives to those that believe Daddy, Papa, Father by the done work of the willing death, then proof of the death 3 days in Spirit Prison, then the resurrection, no more flesh work can save anyone else not even self (Romans 8:1-3) it is finished for anymore self work to get done from anyone.
Saved by the risen life given from Father to all that are sincere in belief to what is done for them to be born again by PaPa, Daddy, Father of Son for them
Whoever is sincere, Father, Daddy, PaPa gives new life to these and each know if this is true or not in themselves, no one else. Yes, we can tell and hear, and judge others, forgetting about self in our way doing judging on others, thinking we know, and end up being a modern day Pharisee. Yet I hear this as well, be wise and remain harmless, wow, woe is me remain harmless, but Lord I know those over there are not doin g it right. Love all, did I the Lord stutter?
You who are doing so much, working so hard, doing your best like a Mother Teresa, who wrote her letter of insecurity. Who worked hard and did much in love, that turned out from her to be of words to get in and not of love only, self work, and I adore this from people to help others, in their time of need. The Motive, and I see She is in heaven, just was unsure because of the flesh body fighting her that was not her, God carried on the work in her, her motive was to help and do, yet she admitted it was for her to assure here getting in.
The ? in her insecurity was she did so much and was not sure if saved as the disciples had that go through them too, in Matthew 19 when they asked Jesus who then can be saved? Watching that rich man walk away.
It is impossible for man to get saved, be saved
Yet by God his Father, now our Father in the risen Son for us is the one that saves us, at least me this is done by Son for me and all the world of people to choose this also or not. It is to be themselves and God to choose. That is between God and each person personally in it all (Romans 8) Tells me I know about me, you know about you, and every person knows the same about themselves, God knows, that I see to stand in trust to that truth only, to me at least.
Cameron, I hope for us all to believe God sincerely and not use God for any self gain in harming anyone else. Born again is not able to harm others. Does not mean one does not get those feelings to do so. It means, when the rubber hits the road and it is in front of you to do back to those that have harmed you, or others, you cannot harm back. Then you know by being in that same love God is with us all, by Son going willingly to that cross to save us, yet the death had to happen first in reconciliation to all (2 Cor 5:16-20), thank you
If you or any one else are still harming others, and know this in you over wanting to have anything here on earth, then you might want to re-think that over and ask are you, me and others doing that are we in the sin of death, known as unbelief to God, using God to get stuff here and now, sitting in Moses's seat, getting praise from people?
Each person gets to decide that for themselves, between God and themselves personally Thanks
God loves us all, otherwise Son would not have gone to that cross willingly ever or would god have done that otherwise?
We each get to decide, in thanksgiving and praise, being content in all things good or bad that happens here for now, at least me