We experience a death to our old sin nature once we are baptized into Christ.

[DorothyMae]

Okay, we are going around in circles anyway, since you are not confident enough to state that you disagree with what Paul is saying in Romans 5:12-14.

I don’t disagree with Paul. I disagree with you. You assume no one before Moses was punished for their sin. This is absurd as God punished the whole world in Noah’s day for their sin. Cain too was punished for his sin. God didn’t say to him, “Ah well, there is no law so there’s no sin so there are no consequences for the evil you do my boy. Carry on.”

 

[PennEd]

Romans 7 is an amazing reassurance. God has done everything necessary for us to be saved, and the last thing that could condemn us is the body of flesh warring against the spirit of life in us.

But as it is that since we do not want to sin, even when we do it is sin dwelling in us, not us, because our life is not the life of the flesh. There is THEREFORE no more condemnation for us at all, if we are in Him, because Christ has condemned sin in the flesh and we, having died with Him, are not of the flesh any longer even tho we wait in it as a booth/tent/tabernacle for the final redemption of our bodies.

Yes. We don’t talk, study, think enough , or even sometimes recognize the whole concept of sanctification.

The world, our flesh and the devil is never going to stop their assault upon the children of God. And unfortunately, the Children sometimes succumb to those 3 things that are present.

But whereas before I was born again, the vast amount of sin I was engaged in not only didn’t bother me, but I was always looking for new ways to feed my flesh!

I wish I didn’t, but I STILL stumble. The difference now is , not just that I sin less, but that I loathe when I do. It bothers me like it never did before I was saved.

Jesus’ incredible Grace is the Greatest motivating factor in changing my behavior now, not an impending doom of destruction, that I could suppress before.

 

[DorothyMae]

The spirit of Christ was not yet given when Moses was around. Christ did not yet come until thousands of years later. Good Lord, can't you guys understand a little of this Bible.

What does that have to do with the discussion?

 

[DorothyMae]

That is not what Romans 5:12-14 is saying. It was Adam's disobedience that condemned everyone, before the Law was given thru Moses, to their death.

Adam didn’t have the law either. So why was he punished?

 

[lenna]

The spirit of Christ was not yet given when Moses was around. Christ did not yet come until thousands of years later. Good Lord, can't you guys understand a little of this Bible.

Are you trolling? At this point it does sound as though you are.

You may likely be the only one here that believes the Holy Spirit is not revealed in the entire Bible and is introduced at the beginning of Genesis for that matter.

Or is the real problem here that you think the Holy Spirit and Jesus are one and the same? Hmmm?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

The spirit of Christ was not yet given when Moses was around. Christ did not yet come until thousands of years later. Good Lord, can't you guys understand a little of this Bible.

just remembered these verses:

1 Peter 1:

9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Adam didn’t have the law either. So why was he punished?

Adam did not have the law of Moses ... but God did give Adam a commandment:

Genesis 2:

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Are you trolling? At this point it does sound as though you are.

You may likely be the only one here that believes the Holy Spirit is not revealed in the entire Bible and is introduced at the beginning of Genesis for that matter.

Or is the real problem here that you think the Holy Spirit and Jesus are one and the same? Hmmm?

I like discussing Scripture with Peterlag. I believe he is a born again believer and we, as members of the body of Christ, are to follow what is written in Scripture:

Philippians 2:

1 If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,

2 Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.

3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.


And the same goes for you @Peterlag ...

 

[posthuman]

In your view he had a sin nature like the rest and should have died for that like all the rest.

God forgives.

I don’t disagree with Paul. I disagree with you. You assume no one before Moses was punished for their sin. This is absurd as God punished the whole world in Noah’s day for their sin. Cain too was punished for his sin. God didn’t say to him, “Ah well, there is no law so there’s no sin so there are no consequences for the evil you do my boy. Carry on.”

"to be sure sin was in the world before the law"

I agree. There is sin which breaks no law; you don't have to have a law in order to have sin. You have to have a law in order to have a transgression of that law, but transgression of law is certainly not the only way to sin. Sin still exists apart from law.

 

[tourist]

He does not say the Christian. He's not talking to the Christian. Here's another example. Romans 10:9-10 is not talking to the Christian either.

If Paul is not talking to Christians then should Christians then disregard these particular passages of Scripture?

 

[DorothyMae]

It seems clear that you do not understand what I'm writing about if you are looking at my flesh. I'm not writing about my flesh or how people see it. I'm writing about the spirit of Christ. And in him there is no sin. And we are in him.

I understand completely. God sees and records what we actually do. So do people and rightly so. Neither record what we claim we are not doing.

 

[DorothyMae]

God forgives.

He forgives sin we actually did, not sin someone else did for us as far as we’re concerned.

"to be sure sin was in the world before the law"

I agree. There is sin which breaks no law; you don't have to have a law in order to have sin. You have to have a law in order to have a transgression of that law, but transgression of law is certainly not the only way to sin. Sin still exists apart from law.

Correct. Nice explanation.

 

[DorothyMae]

Adam did not have the law of Moses ... but God did give Adam a commandment:

Genesis 2:

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Correct but G assumes that since the law was not formally given, no ones aweful crimes against others mattered to God. He punished them instead for Adams sin which they didn’t do.

 

[DorothyMae]

The only law that existed then was that if you eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, you will die.

Since Adam and Eve from that tree, mankind is banished from the Garden and hence can no longer eat from the tree.

Still Adam's descendants all died. Since vs 13 state sin was not imputed to them, why did they die?

Read what happened to Cain. His sin was laid upon him. You do it understand the matter as Paul did who knew Noah’s generation suffered for their sin. If it had been Adams sin Noah would have been included.

 

[biker]

Are you trolling? At this point it does sound as though you are.

You may likely be the only one here that believes the Holy Spirit is not revealed in the entire Bible and is introduced at the beginning of Genesis for that matter.

Or is the real problem here that you think the Holy Spirit and Jesus are one and the same? Hmmm?

And that shouldn't matter if they were one and the same since the WORD Created all things, the WORD was the physical manifestation of God throughout the entire Bible (I AM as a Burning Bush who said He was the Elohim of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob), even Genesis 6:3 is the WORD/Lord explaining how His Spirit (Holy Spirit) would not exist with man forever since man is only destined to live 120 years. Then the WORD became flesh as Jesus for our Salvation and Resurrection before leaving that we might be indwelled with the Holy Spirit. And eventually the WORD will be Judge on Judgement Day.

So, the WORD and the Holy Spirit have been active throughout the entire Bible.

If peterlag believes the WORD and Jesus are 2 different entities, no wonder he believes he is sinless. That kind of Denial/Delusion is unable to help!

 

[oyster67]

The only law that existed then was that if you eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, you will die.

Since Adam and Eve from that tree, mankind is banished from the Garden and hence can no longer eat from the tree.

Still Adam's descendants all died. Since vs 13 state sin was not imputed to them, why did they die?

You now understand that there was a law before Moses and that v. 13 will not excuse them. Death did reign and sin was imputed. Verse 13 does not say that sin was not imputed to them. It says that sin would not have been imputed if there had been no Law, but there WAS law, as you have finally acknowledged. Verse 14 tells us exactly why they died.

 

[oyster67]

Cleaning up the flesh is part of the life-long repentance process leading to sanctification. Repentance is a manifestation of salvation. Regarding going to war with cleaning of the flesh, Paul has stated that one works out their salvation with fear and trembling with, I'm surmising, the probable reason being that one is not clear on how salvation is obtained in the first place.

I believe that "work out", as used in this context, means to show forth evidence of salvation by good works and fruits.

Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

This "working out" would not relate to either obtaining nor maintaining Salvation. It just shows the world that you are the real deal.

 

[oyster67]

Jacob stole from his brother and would not obey the Angel (God) until he was blessed.
Moses tried talking himself out of doing God's Will plus killed an Egyptian.
Daniel would not obey the king's decree.
Elisha watched a she bear eat the children making fun of him.
Peter was called Satan by God Himself and then cut off the ear of a Centurion.
Esther deceived her own husband.

Yep, I am low on the totem pole with this one!

Just plead the blood, my brother.

 

[tourist]

I believe that "work out", as used in this context, means to show forth evidence of salvation by good works and fruits.

Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

This "working out" would not relate to either obtaining nor maintaining Salvation. It just shows the world that you are the real deal.

I believe that you are correct, sir.

 

[Micaiah-imla]

well you specifically told me a 'true believer' has no business in Romans 7, and when i mentioned that earlier this week someone told me a 'true believer' has equally no business in Romans 6, you said that was good advice.

so it appeared to me you were in agreement about skipping straight to 8 without letting 6 or 7 inform it.
that sounds like 'might as well delete' to me.




i'm pretty sure that the view which says Christians have 'no business' in Romans 6 & 7 is the biased one, and i don't think i have anything to learn from someone who says those chapters have nothing to say to me. i have a hard time believing you actually find them clear if you believe you have no business in them.

No business in them; meaning, a born again believer doesn’t have the problem with doing the evil he doesn’t want to do as described therein. This is profitable for a person to know so that he is able to examine himself wether or not he is in the flesh or in the Spirit.

Not that one should ignore those scriptures, but learn from them; that once he is born again, he knows he will not suffer the symptoms of the man in the flesh.