The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.
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FreeGrace2 said:
What you lack is any biblical evidence for your views.
Go ahead and keep kidding yourself.
You don't have any biblical evidence for your doctrine and you know it.
OK, if your evidence is so "obvious", why won't you just quote it?
Oh, I see. It's not really so "obvious" after all. One has to "pick up on it". Sure.
And you're just so smart as to be able to "pick up on" the "obvious" evidence. Unlike so many others.
Right. Sure. Just keep kidding yourself.
No verse shows Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven. No verse shows Jesus resurrecting anyone before the Trib.
All you have is conjecture. There's NOTHING to "pick up on" when one conjectures.
I have shown that the Bible teaches there is ONE resurrection for the saved and one for the unsaved, in Acts 24:15. Can you exegete that verse and prove it says something else? If so, then just DO IT.
I have shown the Bible teaches that "those who belong to Him", being ALL believers from Adam forward, will be resurrected "when He comes", which is at the Second Coming, in 1 Cor 15:23, 2 Thess 2:1 and Rev 20:5.
YOU: conjecture, Jesus takes glorified believers to heaven and before the Trib.
ME: biblical truth, there is one resurrection, which is for all believers, and occurs at the Second Advent.
What you lack is any biblical evidence for your views.
Go ahead and keep kidding yourself.
You don't have any biblical evidence for your doctrine and you know it.
OK, if your evidence is so "obvious", why won't you just quote it?
Oh, I see. It's not really so "obvious" after all. One has to "pick up on it". Sure.
And you're just so smart as to be able to "pick up on" the "obvious" evidence. Unlike so many others.
Right. Sure. Just keep kidding yourself.
No verse shows Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven. No verse shows Jesus resurrecting anyone before the Trib.
All you have is conjecture. There's NOTHING to "pick up on" when one conjectures.
I have shown that the Bible teaches there is ONE resurrection for the saved and one for the unsaved, in Acts 24:15. Can you exegete that verse and prove it says something else? If so, then just DO IT.
I have shown the Bible teaches that "those who belong to Him", being ALL believers from Adam forward, will be resurrected "when He comes", which is at the Second Coming, in 1 Cor 15:23, 2 Thess 2:1 and Rev 20:5.
YOU: conjecture, Jesus takes glorified believers to heaven and before the Trib.
ME: biblical truth, there is one resurrection, which is for all believers, and occurs at the Second Advent.
I recall... I believe you are the poster who'd suggested that, when Satan will be released out from his prison (Rev20:7-8 [after the 1000 yrs]), he will go out to deceive GLORIFIED SAINTS (since no one else will "exist" then, in your view) 
Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, where do you get the NO ONE WILL EXIST?
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
THAT IS THE FIRST DEATH THAT DEATH COMES UPON EVERY ONE
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
And those not looking are going to wish for mountains to fall on them
and the dead resurrect. The 'spiritually dead' rise and remain 'spiritually dead' for the 1000 years.
THE SECOND DEATH TAKES PLACE at the GWTJ that would be all the nations who have been being taught and ruled by Christ and the priests and judges aka THE GLORIFIED SAINTS
(on whom the 2nd death has no effect they receive their immortality when they first rise)
So when I say no more flesh I mean
NO MORE EARTHEN/TERRESTRIAL/CORRUPTIBLE/MORTAL BODIES.
WE WILL be like the angels.
The JUST/saved/Christians/believers WHEN RESURRECTED receive their IMMORTAL/incorruptible/celestial/glorified bodies
The UNJUST/not saved/marked/non believers when resurrected receive A STILL MORTAL/still spiritually dead/maybe 2nd death/incorruptible/celestial/NOT GLORIFIED body.
1 Corinthians 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
1 Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
WHAT is Gods desire? That all come to repentance. God doesn't need us to be priests and rulers over 'believers only' but over all the nations. ALL the kingdoms of the earth will become the Lords. All the nations will be coming to the temple to worship.
HEAVEN IS COMING TO EARTH. Christ is not coming back to be 'an earthy man' again. All the armies returning with Him are ALL IN THEIR SPIRITUAL BODIES. How many? Multitudes. Ever check out the size of the millennial temple?
EARTH bodies, corruptible bodies can't make it 1000 years. EVEN before the fall no one did. There is no death during the Lords Day because DEATH BY WAY OF SIN AND SATAN AND BONDAGE AND POWER HAVE BEEN DEFEATED. Everyone has had a first death. THERE IS ONLY ONE DEATH LEFT AND THAT IS AT THE GWTJ.
But that doesn't take place until AFTER SATAN IS LOOSED FOR A SHORT SEASON.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
THAT IS THE 2ND DEATH FOR ALL OF THEM. THEY ARE GONE. THEY HAVE BEEN BLOTTED OUT OF ALL TIME.
WHICH LEAVES US WITH
Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
NOW WE HAVE THOSE who have been SPIRITUALLY DEAD for the past 1000 years that when Satan was loosed, didn't follow after him. They have come to faith. They love God and they are about to receive their immortality.
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
THESE ARE THE DEAD THAT 'NEVER RESURRECTED' AT the beginning of the Lords Day. They HEARD THE WORDS OF THE LORD, THEY WERE OFFERED SALVATION, SOME WERE EVEN SAVED, BUT THEY LOVED THEIR OWN LIVES, THEY LOVED THE WAYS OF THE WORLD, THEY ARE EVIL AND CRUEL AND THEY ARE RESURRECTED TO GO INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE. THEY CHOSE DEATH AND NOW THEY ARE GETTING WHAT THEY CHOSE.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
There is something else I am supposed to say but I forget what it is.
FreeGrace2 said:
Sure they are. So are all the NT believers. Why wouldn't they as well? Are they going to miss the NE and the NJ?
So you purposely leave out all the NT believers. I wonder where you place them?
No, just straight forward questions based on your posts. Were you conjecuturing?
None of this answers my questions.
Regarding the NJ under "universe", did you forget where the NJ SITS? On the NE. Don't forget that.
Sure they are. So are all the NT believers. Why wouldn't they as well? Are they going to miss the NE and the NJ?
So you purposely leave out all the NT believers. I wonder where you place them?
No, just straight forward questions based on your posts. Were you conjecuturing?
None of this answers my questions.
Regarding the NJ under "universe", did you forget where the NJ SITS? On the NE. Don't forget that.
So far this is what I have been taught, if you could call it that. Correcting what is wrong seems to work out much better, so I have put forth WHAT I THINK YOU ARE TEACHING (but most likely am wrong but after 2000 plus posts am thinking another tactic is necessary).
So here is what I have learned so far. My confusion should be obvious.
Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
John is taken up to heaven and he is going to be shown things that will be coming in the future. But the future has already happened and IN REALITY CHRIST has just got back from the earth with the rapture of the church and it is 2000 years in the future.
Revelation 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
God is sitting on the throne
Revelation 4:3 And He that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
Revelation 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
ARE THESE 24 SEATS AND 24 ELDERS NO LONGER "24 SEATS AND 24 ELDERS" BUT NOW "THE CHURCHES" THAT WERE JUST SEEN ON THE EARTH HAVING BEEN RAPTURED TO HEAVEN?
IF SO, WHY ARE WE GIVEN ZERO INFORMATION ON SUCH AN EVENT?
WHY WOULD THE 'CHURCHES' GET A NAME CHANGE AT THIS POINT?
WHY WOULD THE NAME BE CHANGED TO 'ELDERS' KNOWING 'ELDERS' HAS A MEANING OF ITS OWN WITHIN THE CHURCHES? I THOUGHT THEY WERE GETTING RAPTURED TO BE THE BRIDE? OR ARE THEY THE BODY?
WHAT ARE THE 'USED TO BE ELDERS' CALLED NOW?
HAS CHRIST ALREADY BEEN SENT TO THE EARTH IN THE FLESH,
BEEN CRUCIFIED,
RETURNED TO HEAVEN,
SPENT THE NEXT 2000 YEARS AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD
ALL ENEMIES HAVE BEEN MADE HIS FOOTSTOOL
SO HE HAS LEFT HEAVEN
COME TO THE EARTH
RAISED THE 'DEAD' (BUT NOT OLD TESTAMENT SAINTS)
'RAPTURED' THE CHURCH
RETURNED TO THE RIGHT HAND OF THE FATHER
SEATED THE 'CHURCH' WHICH IS HIS BODY IN THE 24 SEATS AND
NOW IS BACK ON THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD AND
TRIBULATION IS BEGINNING ON THE EARTH?
DO I HAVE THAT SEQUENCE OF EVENTS CORRECT? PLEASE FORGIVE ME FOR NOT KNOWING ANY OF THIS STUFF AFTER 2000 PLUS POSTS BUT I CAN'T GET ANYONE TO ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS IN A CLEAR AND SIMPLE MANNER. YOU WOULD THINK THEY WOULD TEACH WHAT THEY KNEW BUT THAT DOESN'T SEEM TO BE HAPPENING SO I AM GOING TO HAVE TO GUESS MY WAY THROUGH SO THAT I CAN BE CORRECTED AND BELITTLED FOR HOW EVER LONG IT TAKES TO WRESTLE THIS INFORMATION OUT OF THOSE WHO CLAIM TO KNOW IT.
Revelation 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
Revelation 4:6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.
Revelation 4:7 And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.
Revelation 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, LORD God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
Revelation 4:9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,
Revelation 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
AND THE TRIBULATION IS STILL TAKING PLACE ON EARTH AT THIS TIME, CORRECT OR INCORRECT?
Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
Revelation 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
IS THIS GOD WITH CHRIST ON HIS RIGHT HAND (AGAIN) AND THE CHURCH SEATED ROUND AND TRIB STILL TAKING PLACE ON THE EARTH?
Revelation 5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
Revelation 5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
IS THIS JUST BACKGROUND INFORMATION TELLING US AT SOME POINT NO ONE WAS WORTHY TO OPEN OR LOOK AT THE BOOK?
Revelation 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
Revelation 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
IS THIS 1/24 OF 'THE BODY' SAYING WEEP NOT? HOW DOES 'ONE ELDER' WHEN IT IS A MULTITUDE OF PEOPLES WORK?
Revelation 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
THE LAMB IN THE MIDST OF THE CHURCH UP IN HEAVEN. IS THIS BOOK BEING OPENED UP AS TRIB IS STARTING DOWN ON THE EARTH? OR HAS THE TRIB BEEN RAGING ON AND NOW THE SEALS ARE BEING OPENED?
Revelation 5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
ARE WE NOW BEING TAKEN BACK TO REV 4:4?
Revelation 5:8 And when He had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Revelation 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
IS CHRIST AND THE CHURCH COMING TO THE EARTH RIGHT NOW OR JUST THE CHRUCH? IS THE TRIB OVER?
Revelation 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
ARE THE ONLY PEOPLE ON EARTH RIGHT NOW THE UN SAVED?
Revelation 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto Him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
IS THE TRIB OVER?
Revelation 5:14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.
ARE THEY ALL STILL IN HEAVEN? IS TRIB STARTING? is this a recap?
FreeGrace2 said:
Regarding the NJ under "universe", did you forget where the NJ SITS? On the NE. Don't forget that.
I don't understand. From Rev 21 we see the present earth pass away, and there is a NE. And then the NJ comes down from heaven TO the NE.
I also don't see how Rev 21:24 is relevant to my comment.
Regarding the NJ under "universe", did you forget where the NJ SITS? On the NE. Don't forget that.
I don't understand. From Rev 21 we see the present earth pass away, and there is a NE. And then the NJ comes down from heaven TO the NE.
I also don't see how Rev 21:24 is relevant to my comment.
What is the big deal with Simon? Why are you so obsessed with him? What does it profit you? Why would anyone have "proof to the contrary"?
Of course neither I nor anyone else has "any proof to the contrary" about Simon. So your continued comments seem rather odd.
But, what is even more odd is the teaching that Jesus takes glorified believers to heaven, when there is NO evidence from Scripture that He will do so.
And since there is only 2 advents of Christ, there is no way He will come pretrib, for any reason. And there is only 1 resurrection of the saved, which clearly occurs at the Second Advent, according to 2 Thess 2:1 and Rev 20:5.
So, why believe a teaching that has NO evidence for it? That's the ony real question. You should focus on that, and forget about poor old Simon. Leave him alone.
You have bigger fish to fry.
Of course neither I nor anyone else has "any proof to the contrary" about Simon. So your continued comments seem rather odd.
But, what is even more odd is the teaching that Jesus takes glorified believers to heaven, when there is NO evidence from Scripture that He will do so.
And since there is only 2 advents of Christ, there is no way He will come pretrib, for any reason. And there is only 1 resurrection of the saved, which clearly occurs at the Second Advent, according to 2 Thess 2:1 and Rev 20:5.
So, why believe a teaching that has NO evidence for it? That's the ony real question. You should focus on that, and forget about poor old Simon. Leave him alone.
You have bigger fish to fry.
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Omegatime,
Why the sad face with my reply to cv5?
I suppose he thinks that just because there is no verse showing that Simon had been healed, he refutes my charge that the pretribbers have no verse showing Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.
Well, here's the difference. There IS a verse that SHOWS that Simon HAD been healed, unlike the pretribbers problem.
Matt 26-
6 While Jesus was in Bethany in the home of Simon the Leper,
7 a woman came to him with an alabaster jar of very expensive perfume, which she poured on his head as he was reclining at the table.
8 When the disciples saw this, they were indignant. “Why this waste?” they asked. “This perfume could have been sold at a high price and the money given to the poor.”
We see here that Jesus was with His disciples, so this wasn't a private dinner between Jesus and Simon. No, it was really a dinner party, with Jesus' disciples (12?) with Him.
Now, if Simon was STILL a leper, you think any of the disciples would have attended? Of course not. In those days, lepers were shunned. No one would come near a leper.
So, there IS evidence that Simon WAS healed, because the disciples came with Jesus.
But there are NO VERSES showing that Jesus will take glorified believers to heaven.
Big difference.
Why the sad face with my reply to cv5?
I suppose he thinks that just because there is no verse showing that Simon had been healed, he refutes my charge that the pretribbers have no verse showing Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.
Well, here's the difference. There IS a verse that SHOWS that Simon HAD been healed, unlike the pretribbers problem.
Matt 26-
6 While Jesus was in Bethany in the home of Simon the Leper,
7 a woman came to him with an alabaster jar of very expensive perfume, which she poured on his head as he was reclining at the table.
8 When the disciples saw this, they were indignant. “Why this waste?” they asked. “This perfume could have been sold at a high price and the money given to the poor.”
We see here that Jesus was with His disciples, so this wasn't a private dinner between Jesus and Simon. No, it was really a dinner party, with Jesus' disciples (12?) with Him.
Now, if Simon was STILL a leper, you think any of the disciples would have attended? Of course not. In those days, lepers were shunned. No one would come near a leper.
So, there IS evidence that Simon WAS healed, because the disciples came with Jesus.
But there are NO VERSES showing that Jesus will take glorified believers to heaven.
Big difference.
"So, there IS evidence that Simon WAS healed, because the disciples came with Jesus.
But there are NO VERSES showing that Jesus will take glorified believers to heaven."
What? Evidence WITHOUT VERSES???
Well now....that certainly blows away about 1000 of your wasted posts and 100,000 of your wasted words doesn't it?
Anyways....the pre-trib rapture is boilerplate Biblical doctrine. There is no plausible alternative.
But there are NO VERSES showing that Jesus will take glorified believers to heaven."
What? Evidence WITHOUT VERSES???
Well now....that certainly blows away about 1000 of your wasted posts and 100,000 of your wasted words doesn't it?
Anyways....the pre-trib rapture is boilerplate Biblical doctrine. There is no plausible alternative.
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