The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

[Absolutely]

FreeGrace2 said:
What's comical is how much you've been refuted and you don't even know it. lol

I give you plenty of verses that plainly say what I believe. Unlike yourself.

I'm still waiting for a verse showing Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

You believe He will, but you haven't YET provided a verse that shows this.

So, because the Bible says nothing about that, where did you get your information from?

Huh?

Rev 12:5 -
English Standard Version
She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne,

You got all that from just this verse? Well, quite an imagination, at least.

The verse speaks of Jesus Christ, who WILL rule of the nations with a rod of iron. Being "caught up to God" is a reference to His own ascension.

The child does NOT "represent living believers" at all. He is Jesus Christ.

You are terribly misunderstanding "but her child was caught up to God and to His throne". A mother's child can be 33 yrs old. The verse notes Jesus' ascension. Nothing more.

"""I'm still waiting for a verse showing Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.
You believe He will, but you haven't YET provided a verse that shows this.
So, because the Bible says nothing about that, where did you get your information from?"""

We shall call your error the "simon the leper" syndrone.

" it does not say he is healed,or that it could have been another leper named simon, therefore he was leper"

Fits your method perfectly.

" it does not say "white bird" anywhere on the white bird.
So it is not a white bird"

SMH

 

[Absolutely]

Absolutely said:
I have no idea how you can not recognize the 144k IN HEAVEN DURING THE TRIB., and not ask " how did they get there"?

The real killer for his obsession with Rev 14 as some kind of evidence for a midtrib rapture, etc is found in the word "harvest" in that chapter.

v.14-20 describes this "harvest" and it ain't no picnic/rapture. It's the killing of many many people, as the clear and plain language of the text says. No mystery here. And no rapture or anyone in heaven.

In fact, the ENTIRE chapter is about what happens ON EARTH.

You already pointed out Mt Zion, which is in Israel, not heaven. v.1
The proclamation of 3 angels is "in midair" and and proclaimed to "those who live ON THE EARTH". So this can't be heaven either.
And finally, the harvest of the earth is death death death. So much so, that blood runs as high as a horse's bridle for about 180 miles.

That's a lot of blodd.

And he thinks there is a rapture somewhere in this chapter. lol

OMISSION.
YOU OMIT ANYTHING YOU SEE AGAINST YOUR MESSED UP DEAL.

AHEM,
Rev 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

That alone blows all your mess out of the water.

reframe that one.

oh, BTW, There is a mt zion in heaven and one on earth.

same for the temple, and other things.
but just refute that too since you are unteachable.

 

[Absolutely]

IT IS WRITTEN

Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman,

Yea, hath God said, (AND HERE COMES THE TWIST)

Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

ITS KINDA THE SAME IT

EVEN ALMOST SOUNDS THE SAME

IF YOU WEREN'T REALLY GIVING IT MUCH THOUGHT, IT MIGHT GO OVER YOUR HEAD THAT IT HAD BEEN CHANGED.


SO WHAT HAVE WE LEARNED? WHAT IS THE VERY FIRST LESSON GOD TEACHES US?

WHEN WE CHANGE WHAT IS WRITTEN TO OUR OWN WORDS TO MAKE THEM FIT OUR OWN AGENDA

WE ARE DOING EXACTLY WHAT SATAN DOES WITH THE WORDS OF GOD.


When asked TIME AND AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN FOR WHERE 'IT IS WRITTEN' and IT IS NEVER PRODUCED, BUT instead is met with more of pushing of the same agenda

take note.

and when what is given is OBVIOUSLY not even close to what is claimed.

HEED THE FIRST WARNING CHRIST GAVE US FOR THE END TIMES DO NOT BE DECEIVED


HERE IS WHAT GOD SAYS ABOUT all this
GOD SPEAKS AGAINST THOSE WHO PROPHESY OUT OF THEIR OWN selves

6 They have seen vanity and lying divination, saying, The LORD saith: and the LORD hath not sent them: and they have made others to hope that they would confirm the word.

7 Have ye not seen a vain vision, and have ye not spoken a lying divination whereas

YE SAY THE LORD SAITH IT

albeit I have not spoken?

8 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye have spoken vanity, and seen lies, therefore, behold, I am against you, saith the Lord GOD.

9 And mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of my people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the Lord GOD.

WHEN A DOCTRINE NOT ONLY STARTS OFF WITH 'HATH GOD SAID' AND THEN IS FOLLOWED UP WITH WORDS OF THEIR OWN MAKING AND BACKING IT UP WITH LACK OF 'IT IS WRITTEN'

MARK THAT DOCTINE AS NOT OF GOD BECAUSE AS YOU CAN SEE HERE, THAT IS EXACTLY HOW SATAN HANDLES THE WORDS OF GOD. NO RESPECT FOR WHAT IS WRITTEN.

Genesis 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Genesis 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

WHEN A DOCTRINE CALLS ITSELF 'APOSTASY', run AND TAKE THAT AS TRUTH.

WHAT CHRISTIAN COULD BE COMFORTABLE WITH THAT?


EXAMPLES OF WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE IN OUR DAY? THESE ARE SOME VERSES GIVEN FOR 'PRE TRIB'

IT IS WRITTEN
Acts 3:18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

Acts 3:20 And He shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you

Acts 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

HATH GOD SAID?
AND SO I TAKE MY CHURCH TO HEAVEN FOR 7 YEARS PREVIOUS TO THE END OF THE RACE? NOT EVEN IN THE BALL PARK


AGAIN,
1Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

HATH GOD SAID? AND THEN I WILL TAKE YOU TO HEAVEN? ONCE AGAIN NOT EVEN IN THE BALL PARK. A CLASSIC EXAMPLE OF TOSSING OUT WHAT IS WRITTEN FOR HATH GOD SAID? ASSIGNING WHAT FITS THEIR OWN AGENDA WITH COMPLETE DISREGARD TO GODS.



WHAT ABOUT WHEN ALL COMMON SENSE SCREAMS AT YOU 'GOD WOULD NEVER DO THAT'?

Revelation 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

WATCH CLOSELY THIS WE'VE BEEN TOLD IS THE CHOICE 4 'THE BRIDE OF HIS SON'
WITHOUT ANY SORT OF PROVING AT ALL RIGHT AFTER THE ASSESSMENT

17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

Revelation 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

(BUT WITHOUT ALL OF THAT PART ONLY SOME)

Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

NOT THE OVERCOMING AS CHRIST DID, JUST THE SIT ON THE THRONE PART.

Revelation 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

DON'T BELIEVE IT.

IF ANYONE SAYS TO YOU LO THERE IS CHRIST AND THEY SAY HE IS COMING TO GATHER YOU TO TAKE YOU TO HEAVEN AND THEN BRING YOU BACK

ASK TO SEE WHERE IT IS WRITTEN IF THEY DON'T PRODUCE A CHAPTER AND A VERSE OR TWO, THEN KNOW IT IS A LIE. AND TELL EVERYONE YOU KNOW IT IS A LIE SO IT WILL QUIT BEING PUT FORTH AS GODS TRUTH WHEN IT IS NOT.

HOW DID JESUS CONTEND WITH SATAN? THIS IS A GREAT EXAMPLE FOR US ALL. BUT YOU WILL SEE 'SATAN' IS INFINITELY MORE WISE.


Matthew 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Matthew 4:5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,

Matthew 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

Matthew 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

Matthew 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

Matthew 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

Matthew 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Matthew 4:11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.


DID YOU CATCH THE LIE?

Wow
Exactly what postribs do to " like manner" in acts ch one, and the virgin parable of mat 25, as well as the "one taken/left", before the flood/ judgment. Of mat 24.

Exactly what you guys do.

So it is EXACTLY opposite of your claim huh?

 

[cv5]

"""I'm still waiting for a verse showing Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.
You believe He will, but you haven't YET provided a verse that shows this.
So, because the Bible says nothing about that, where did you get your information from?"""

We shall call your error

" it does not say he is healed,or that it could have been another leper named simon, therefore he was leper"

Fits your method perfectly.

" it does not say "white bird" anywhere on the white bird.
So it is not a white bird"

SMH

"the "simon the leper" syndrome"

Now that's a keeper buddy.....

 

[Absolutely]

"the "simon the leper" syndrome"

Now that's a keeper buddy.....

yes!!!

But since they dip down into centering on dishonesty, it is not much of a debate.

 

[cv5]

yes!!!

But since they dip down into centering on dishonesty, it is not much of a debate.

They just don't get it man. My guess is they are entrenched in their ossified linear Hellenistic thinking. They don't seem to understand that Scripture demands that you make assumptions about things NOT being said. Those two prolific posters here are basically 100% wrong 100% of the time. It's incredible man. I mean they may intersect the truth accidentally once in a while. But even a broken clock is right twice a day. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut now and again.

 

[FreeGrace2]

There is an artful quality of thinking aligned to the mideastern mindset required to understand Scripture. Deduction is an inevitable part of it. So is detecting forms and detecting patterns. And much much more.....

What you lack is any biblical evidence for your views.

Unfortunately, you don't have it. That's why you don't get it.
You - just - don't - get - it.....

What you lack is any biblical evidene for your views.

 

[FreeGrace2]

One of the reasons for the rapture is so the believers can assist Christ in his Priestly duties so He can take the scroll and begin His judgment on earth.

I see the reason for the rapture is simply to give living believers their glorified bodies just after the dead saints receive theirs.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yes those who belong to the Lord when He comes (with those asleep in Him) are all who go to His own throne. (Rev.3: 21)

God's throne is in heaven. King Jesus' throne will be on earth, where He will rule the nations with a rod of iron.

Does that sound like He will be ruling believers? Not to me.

And Rev 20:5 proves that the resurrection of "those who belong to Him" will be at the Second Advent.

Others who turn to God during the trib, and millennium have a different inheritance - the earth. (Rev. 21: 24)

No, every believer will live on the NE after all unbelievers are judged and thrown into the LoF.

I seriously doubt there will be any converts during the Millennium. Why not? Because we find a global rebellion after Satan is released at the end of the Millennium. Why would any believer be a part of that?

Further, there is no evidence of conversion during the Millennium, OR any resurrection of believers after the Millennium, or even during it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

God`s hand is not so short that he cannot save people in the millennium.

Of course not. With God, ALL things are possible. Doesn't say that ALL things will occur.

And since the Bible is clear about there being just ONE resurrection of all believers, and that occurs "when He comes", or the Second Advent, if there were to be converts during the Millennium, there is NO evidence of that, nor of any further resurrection.

So, you just don't have any evidence for your view.

Look at the prophet Micah. Many nations will go up to Jerusalem and learn the ways of the Lord. (Micah 4: 1 - 4)

I think you stopped a bit too soon. v.5 - All the nations may walk in the name of their gods, but we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever.

Doesn't sound like a world full of believers. And even the Jews who claimed that they WILL walk in the name of the LORD could be no different than all the examples in the OT of Israelites who make sweeping claims and promises but fell flat.

It's very possible that the Jews will just try to get on God's "good side" by their proclamations.

Anyway, bottom line, there is only 1 resurrection of the saved, which occurs at the Second Advent. So IF there are converts in the Millennium, there won't be a resurrection of these "mere mortals". And they ALL will miss the wedding supper.

Scripture does NOT say that all people from Adam will get resurrected when He comes.

I never said the Bible says that. I did say that "those who belong to Him" means EVERY believer. How can it NOT? Jesus owns everyone who has believed in Him. Obviously.

Those OT saints in Heb. 11 are waiting for the city.

Sure they are. So are all the NT believers. Why wouldn't they as well? Are they going to miss the NE and the NJ?

That is their inheritance. When the city comes down then they will receive what God has promised. And that is NHNE.

So you purposely leave out all the NT believers. I wonder where you place them?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I think what he is pointing out is that the obvious is absent in your "reasoning" elsewhere.

"""Show me where any resurrected believers are taken to heaven"""

We show you....to no avail.

You've NEVER shown such a thing. Why do you state a KNOWN FALSEHOOD?

 

[FreeGrace2]

.....and apparently does not care.

One thing he does know is that he hates the pretrib rapture doctrine.

Just 2 more FALSE claims, of which you have NO knowledge at all.

I do care about truth. And I do love truth.

There is no truth in a pretrib rapture theory. Which has been proven by the verses that you won't even address.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Again postrib error is omitting truth.

This is just so funny! You claim we omit truth, YET, it is the pretrib ilk that has NO VERSE showing Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven. How's that for omission?

I omit what you erroneously NEED to reframe the Word of God to fit your doctrine.

You have to omit any verse that shows Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven. Because you KNOW there aren't any such verses.

That's what you have to omit.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You were already shown 3 comings.

No I wasn't. You may be delirious.

More stuff for you to omit huh?

I "omit" what the Bible doesn't say. Which is your doctrine. Can't be found in the Bible. So I omit it.

Ever hear of the Bereans? I am motivated to study the Bible in the same way (like manner) that they did.

Acts 17:11 - Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

So, let's replace "Paul" with "abs", ok?

Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what ABS said was true.

Well, I do examine the Scriptures every day and I haven't seen anything of what ABS says. So it isn't true.

Because the Bible doesn't say it.

Again, all I'm doing is sharing what has convinced me from the Bible. What anyone else (you) do with it is between you and God.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Good point.
The earth's gathering will take time.

Once again, a pretrib rapture power point.

I really do suspect that you may be delirious.

Rev 14 clearly shows that the "harvest" and gathering is all about killing, killing, and more killing. Nothing about a rapture or resurrection.

 

[FreeGrace2]

"""I'm still waiting for a verse showing Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.
You believe He will, but you haven't YET provided a verse that shows this.
So, because the Bible says nothing about that, where did you get your information from?"""

We shall call your error the "simon the leper" syndrone.

It's your error, not mine. The question re: simon was beyond absurd. Anyone with a functioning brain would know that he used to have leprosy but no longer did. But so what? It proves nothing.

Just because the Bible doesn't record the act of Jesus healing him doesn't prove that there will be a pretrib rapture.

I've shown over and over the verses that prove that there is just ONE resurrection for the saved and one for the unsaved. Acts 24:15.

And you haven't done anything to refute that claim by executing the verse and showing that it says otherwise.

I've shown that the resurrection of believers (all of them per "those who belong to Him" - 1 Cor 15:23) is "when He comes" that being at the Second ( and final) Advent (Rev 20:5).

And you, true to form, have FAILED to address any of these verses or proved that they say otherwise.

The Berean method of Bible study is how to discover truth.

There is NOTHING obvious about more than 1 resurrections, or a pretrib rapture.

There IS actual evidence of just ONE resurrection, which is at the Second Advent. As I've shown.

All this bellyaching won't buy you a cup of coffee. So you might as well cease.

Those who wake up and use the Berean method will find truth.

 

[FreeGrace2]

but just refute that too since you are unteachable.

People who are ignorant of FACTS yet make grandiose claims are foolish.

The Berean method of Bible study shows that what you claim cannot be found in Scripture.

 

[Absolutely]

They just don't get it man. My guess is they are entrenched in their ossified linear Hellenistic thinking. They don't seem to understand that Scripture demands that you make assumptions about things NOT being said. Those two prolific posters here are basically 100% wrong 100% of the time. It's incredible man. I mean they may intersect the truth accidentally once in a while. But even a broken clock is right twice a day. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut now and again.

" blind squirrel"

Too funny

 

[FreeGrace2]

" blind squirrel"

Too funny

Actually, the "entrenched ones" as cv5 quipped are yourselves. You guys were taught a pretrib rapture somewhere along the line and bought it hook, line and sinker. As I did way back as a youth.

However, as I grew up, leaned about the Berean method of Bible study, and applied that principle to what OTHERS were saying, I found that some did speak the truth, and the proof was in the Bible.

However, others did NOT speak the truth, because there was NO evidence in the Bible.

That's where you sit. You have no evidence from the Bible about a pretrib rapture, much less about glorified believers being taken to heaven by Jesus.

It's all just a HUGE assumption. Or presumption.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

It’s my view that the vision of Revelation 12 speaks of a future event as John hears is Rev. 4:1 "Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this." I don’t see it as referring to the Lord’s ascension which was a gradual ascending into a cloud, not a forcible ‘catching away.’

The 24 Elders act as priests by offering ‘golden bowls’ which are the prayers of saints on earth (Rev 5:6-10). Jesus is “in the midst” of His people and exists in unity with believers. We are joint heirs who are qualified to rule as kings with Him and to act on His behalf as priests before God.
One of the reasons for the rapture is so the believers can assist Christ in his Priestly duties so He can take the scroll and begin His judgment on earth.

Yeah. I fairly agree with what you've put here (even though I have some disagreement with what you'd put in the rest of your post).

Revelation 12 was the primary text that those in the 1800s used, for their "pre-trib [rapture]" argument and conclusions... not "1 Thessalonians 4" (viewed by itself), as many suggest they (and others) did (and do).


I am one who does see "the male" (v.13) as "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" that the woman had brought forth (prior to this MID-trib-point/scene)... thus, is the identification of "the man child" (Christ / in connection with His Body [/the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY]); and that this passage is parallel with Micah 5:3 [not v.2 about Jesus' Own Birth]







[again, for the readers: the 24 elders are shown to be saying "hast redeemed US to God by thy blood out-of EVERY..." (5:9,[4]) and this, BEFORE the FIRST SEAL is opened in the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period (1:1[7:3]/ 1:19c / 4:1), aka the "7 yr Trib" / "future" aspects of the Book]