Slain in the spirit?

[Genez]

Verse 12 confirms it. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Well? What is your answer?

I know you think you have an answer there.
So, let me help you with it.

The gifts, that some refer to as temporary, will all disappear at the Rapture.
No longer to be seen amongst believers on earth.
Is that what you were implying?

All of those gifts will end in an instant in time?

 

[Genez]

I already knew the answer about how many people you have led to the Lord by your posting history.

The Father's Will is for us to believe who Yeshua claimed to be and to obey Him.

1. Great Commission
2. in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues


It's obvious you don't follow anything but your own intentions.

Mirror... mirror.. on the wall.

 

[Genez]

What happened everybody?

I asked....


Those who believe tongues, prophesy, healings.etc. and the like?
If they were not temporary and have not ceased?
When Paul says they shall cease?
Why have they not ceased?

Define it, please?

​

Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; ​

whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, ​

it will vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. ​

But when that which is perfect (complete) has come, then that which is in part ​

will be done away.​

​

When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; ​

but when I became a man, I put away childish things.​

​

​

1 Corinthians 13:8-11​

New King James Version​

 

[Blain]

What happened everybody?

I asked....


Those who believe tongues, prophesy, healings.etc. and the like?
If they were not temporary and have not ceased?
When Paul says they shall cease?
Why have they not ceased?

Define it, please?

​

Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; ​

whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, ​

it will vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. ​

But when that which is perfect (complete) has come, then that which is in part ​

will be done away.​

​

When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; ​

but when I became a man, I put away childish things.​

​

​

1 Corinthians 13:8-11​

New King James Version​

Im sorry I must not have seen your question. the reason they have not ceased is because they will cease but at the end of all things until then as long as Christ has not returned to riegn on earth they will continue

 

[lrs68]

What happened everybody?

I asked....


Those who believe tongues, prophesy, healings.etc. and the like?
If they were not temporary and have not ceased?
When Paul says they shall cease?
Why have they not ceased?

Define it, please?

​

Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; ​

whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, ​

it will vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. ​

But when that which is perfect (complete) has come, then that which is in part ​

will be done away.​

​

When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; ​

but when I became a man, I put away childish things.​

​

​

1 Corinthians 13:8-11​

New King James Version​

It takes intelligent men like the CHURCH FATHER'S and WELL KNOWN THEOLOGIANS to understand Paul meant TONGUES CEASED WHEN WE ARE RAPTURED...


From Church Fathers to Reformers all believe the Perfect to Come (τὸ τέλειον) is seeing God or when we die and see God:

Irenaeus understood τὸ τέλειον to refer to seeing God

Tertullian takes face to face to refer to the visible manifestation of Jesus.

Clement’s view of the passage is quite clear. He first cites verses eight and thirteen and then alludes to verse ten in his explanation. τὸ τέλειον is the believer’s state when he sees God.

Origen cites both verse twelve (“face to face”) and verse ten (“that which is perfect”) is about God.

Cyprian cites 1 Corinthians 13:12 (“seeing through a glass”) a “the secrets of God cannot be seen through now but face to face we shall know."

Eusebius states, “The apostle thought it necessary that the prophetic gift should continue in all the Church until the final coming of Jesus."

Methodius uses τὸ τέλειον in reference to the return of Christ and the events associated with it.

Basil relates τὸ τέλειον to complete (as opposed to partial) knowledge of the truth in heaven about God.

Ambrose addresses the issue of theodicy. In doing so he alludes to 1 Corinthians 13:9–10, relating the perfect to the future day when the believer will be face to face with God.

John Chrysostom identifies τὸ τέλειον with complete knowledge, which from the context of his remarks, will be when we see God.

Jerome wrote τὸ τέλειον refers to the state of perfection or Christian maturity that the believer reaches at death or when they see God.

Augustine pinned, the perfect to come is “When He shall appear, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.”

Leo the Great wrote, ‘face to face’ is seeing the very Godhead ‘as He is.’

John Calvin wrote, τὸ τέλειον as the state of perfection that comes to some extent at death, but only completely at the judgment.

Richard Baxter wrote, τὸ τέλειον as the state of perfection reached at death.

Matthew Poole identifies τὸ τέλειον as heaven.

John Locke relates τὸ τέλειον to “the state of accomplishment and perfection” that comes “hereafter.”

Doodridge believes τὸ τέλειον to refer to the heavenly state.

Gill identifies τὸ τέλειον as the perfect knowledge of God in the life to come.

Wesley includes this terse explanation of τὸ τέλειον: “at death and in the last day

 

[Genez]

So...... is it to be understood that all those gifts will disappear at the same moment that Christ appears?

 

[Blain]

So...... is it to be understood that all those gifts will disappear at the same moment that Christ appears?

Well it is said in scripture when perfect or complete which would imply when all is said and done we will have no need for the gifts at that point I mean if Christ returns at the end of all things when the judgment seat is finnished when the book of revelation is complete what need would we have for them they are to be used to save the lost edift and strengthen the body and to serve God we won't see any souls to be saved if all is done

 

[Genez]

Well it is said in scripture when perfect or complete which would imply when all is said and done we will have no need for the gifts at that point I mean if Christ returns at the end of all things when the judgment seat is finnished when the book of revelation is complete what need would we have for them they are to be used to save the lost edift and strengthen the body and to serve God we won't see any souls to be saved if all is done

Many seem unaware to the fact that the NT Scriptures were barely in writing when Paul wrote 1 Corinthians.
How much of the NT was completed when Paul penned those words?

Only 1st and 2nd Thessalonians 'might' have been existing...
All the rest of the NT?
They had no clue to knowing yet .

So, what was to fill in for that deficiency until the Scriptures were made complete?
And, not to mention tongues purpose.... Israel had not yet faced God's judgment upon Jerusalem
to put an end to Jewish dominance as God's people?

That is what the temporary gifts functions were for...

 

[Blain]

Many seem unaware to the fact that the NT Scriptures were barely in writing when Paul wrote 1 Corinthians.
How much of the NT was completed when Paul penned those words?

Only 1st and 2nd Thessalonians 'might' have been existing...
All the rest of the NT?
They had no clue to knowing yet .

So, what was to fill in for that deficiency until the Scriptures were made complete?
And, not to mention tongues purpose.... Israel had not yet faced God's judgment upon Jerusalem
to put an end to Jewish dominance as God's people?

That is what the temporary gifts functions were for...

Yeah that would make sense except for the fact that even the gift of tongues is around today so if it was talking about the letters and scriptures why do the gifts ecist tofay?

 

[Genez]

It takes intelligent men like the CHURCH FATHER'S and WELL KNOWN THEOLOGIANS to understand Paul meant TONGUES CEASED WHEN WE ARE RAPTURED...

So, are you saying you are not intelligent?
That no one in the church today have the smarts to figure it out???

For, that's what you just said.

Yet.... the gifts each have different Greek tenses as to how each one would end.
If their ceasing was to be determined by the appearance of Christ?
All would experience and instant ending....

But, the Greek says that some will die down on their own gradually.
Only some would experience an instant cessation.

And, the "perfect" (completed) is in the neuter gender.
Jesus is hardly a neuter gender object.

 

[lrs68]

It takes intelligent men like the CHURCH FATHER'S and WELL KNOWN THEOLOGIANS to understand Paul meant TONGUES CEASED WHEN WE ARE RAPTURED...


From Church Fathers to Reformers all believe the Perfect to Come (τὸ τέλειον) is seeing God or when we die and see God:

Irenaeus understood τὸ τέλειον to refer to seeing God

Tertullian takes face to face to refer to the visible manifestation of Jesus.

Clement’s view of the passage is quite clear. He first cites verses eight and thirteen and then alludes to verse ten in his explanation. τὸ τέλειον is the believer’s state when he sees God.

Origen cites both verse twelve (“face to face”) and verse ten (“that which is perfect”) is about God.

Cyprian cites 1 Corinthians 13:12 (“seeing through a glass”) a “the secrets of God cannot be seen through now but face to face we shall know."

Eusebius states, “The apostle thought it necessary that the prophetic gift should continue in all the Church until the final coming of Jesus."

Methodius uses τὸ τέλειον in reference to the return of Christ and the events associated with it.

Basil relates τὸ τέλειον to complete (as opposed to partial) knowledge of the truth in heaven about God.

Ambrose addresses the issue of theodicy. In doing so he alludes to 1 Corinthians 13:9–10, relating the perfect to the future day when the believer will be face to face with God.

John Chrysostom identifies τὸ τέλειον with complete knowledge, which from the context of his remarks, will be when we see God.

Jerome wrote τὸ τέλειον refers to the state of perfection or Christian maturity that the believer reaches at death or when they see God.

Augustine pinned, the perfect to come is “When He shall appear, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.”

Leo the Great wrote, ‘face to face’ is seeing the very Godhead ‘as He is.’

John Calvin wrote, τὸ τέλειον as the state of perfection that comes to some extent at death, but only completely at the judgment.

Richard Baxter wrote, τὸ τέλειον as the state of perfection reached at death.

Matthew Poole identifies τὸ τέλειον as heaven.

John Locke relates τὸ τέλειον to “the state of accomplishment and perfection” that comes “hereafter.”

Doodridge believes τὸ τέλειον to refer to the heavenly state.

Gill identifies τὸ τέλειον as the perfect knowledge of God in the life to come.

Wesley includes this terse explanation of τὸ τέλειον: “at death and in the last day

Some of these people on the list (this is just a quick list so many Church Fathers just after the Apostles are not listed) when you read all of their materials literally first hand knew or those who knew other Apostles first hand/second hand.

So they are directly reciting the source and closest to the source.

If anyone should disagree with them it's probably best to ignore anything they have to offer towards any Biblical subject.

 

[lrs68]

So, are you saying you are not intelligent?
That no one in the church today have the smarts to figure it out???

For, that's what you just said.

Yet.... the gifts each have different Greek tenses as to how each one would end.
If their ceasing was to be determined by the appearance of Christ?
All would experience and instant ending....

But, the Greek says that some will die down on their own gradually.
Only some would experience an instant cessation.

And, the "perfect" (completed) is in the neuter gender.
Jesus is hardly a neuter gender object.

Some of these people on the list (this is just a quick list so many Church Fathers just after the Apostles are not listed) when you read all of their materials literally first hand knew or those who knew other Apostles first hand/second hand.

So they are directly reciting the source and closest to the source.

If anyone should disagree with them it's probably best to ignore anything they have to offer towards any Biblical subject.

 

[Genez]

Yeah that would make sense except for the fact that even the gift of tongues is around today so if it was talking about the letters and scriptures why do the gifts ecist tofay?

It says that tongues was specifically to be a sign to those who would not believe.

Why?

Jews require a sign.
Tongues were a sign to unbelieving Jews as the plagues were signs to Pharaoh.

God gave the unbelieving Jews to 70 AD.
Jerusalem in 70 AD and its temple were destroyed by Titus.
Israel lost its nationhood in 70AD.... then the Gentiles were brought in to take the place of the Jews as God;'s witnesses to the Gentile world.

1 Corinthians 14:21​

​

In the Law it is written: (To the Jews = Law)​

​

“With other tongues​

and through the lips of foreigners​

I will speak to this people, (not all people! = unbeliever Jews)​

but even then they will not listen to me,​

says the Lord.”​

It says that tongues were for "a sign for a specific people."
Not, all people! Jews who were refusing to believe!

And, like Pharaoh, who refused to listen?
So did the Jews when confronted with the sign of others speaking in the native tongue that migrated Jews understood!

The Devil is a sneak and shows no mercy wherever he can use his invisible power.
He thrives in Ignorance of men!
In contrast, to balance it out... Jesus said that the Truth would set us free.

Just because we sense power? It does not mean it is from God.

Just look at what an apparent invisible power did for the following folks.
Folks, who thought they were great warriors for Christ!

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, ​

but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. ​

​

Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name ​

and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ ​

Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ ​

Matthew 7:21-23​

They thought the power was from God.
They assumed God approved of them!

He is the Word. John 1:1

The Word is given to us to protect us from deception,
as well as for our edification.

grace and peace .............

 

[Edify]

Yes, the pentecostal and charismatic teachings came in different waves and there teachings are partwise different.
When the pentecostal teaching came to germany in 1907, the company signs were falling down, laughing out of controle, making voices like animals,
Signs which were we find later in the charismatic movements, too. Also is common the teaching about the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which is in company with the gift of speaking in tounges as sign for it.
This is known as 2nd expierience/ for empowerment.
Some, like Oness pentecostal teach that without this baptism the believer is not saved. Others teach that an believer needs this baptism for the ministrie. So that without this baptism you lack an important part of be an follower of Christ. ( This was this was told me from different people, charismatics as well pentecostals.)
This creates in my eyes an first class and an 2nd class christianity. Nobody calls it so, but in my expieriences they treat me in this way.
Finaly the Lord will decides what is right ore not.

I searched both the English post AND the German post translated to English & found NOTHING about falling down, laughing out of control, making voices like animals.
You're gonna have to prove yourself OR confess you made that up.

 

[Radius]

the first thing you should have done was turn around and walked out. No woman should be the head of the church. who knows what powers are in control at that "church."

 

[wolfwint]

I searched both the English post AND the German post translated to English & found NOTHING about falling down, laughing out of control, making voices like animals.
You're gonna have to prove yourself OR confess you made that up.

Maby you overread it. Laughing out of controle and voices like animals was seen in the charismatic movements.
But falling over, screaming, prophecie in the first person, dancing and trembling. This is not to find in the bible as sign to recived the Holy Spirit.

 

[Edify]

Maby you overread it. Laughing out of controle and voices like animals was seen in the charismatic movements.
But falling over, screaming, prophecie in the first person, dancing and trembling. This is not to find in the bible as sign to recived the Holy Spirit.

The laughing & animal voices came AFTER the charismatic movement in 1967. Before then, Pentecostals didn't do it, & nothing like that in 1900's Germany.
Carefully do research before making statements as truth.

 

[Edify]

When there are PAGES of back & forth bickering about the gifts of the Spirit, the same thing always happens: Those who want to know the truth will get burned out on the mess, not wanting any part of it.
Doing this destroys the true witness of the move of the Spirit, causing other believers to run from it.
Is that what you want? Do you want to be judged for the confusion this bickering has caused?
Your trying to win the argument is not wise.

 

[Genez]

I searched both the English post AND the German post translated to English & found NOTHING about falling down, laughing out of control, making voices like animals.
You're gonna have to prove yourself OR confess you made that up.

 

[lrs68]

^

Hagin is Oral Roberts disciple (Free Charismatic Methodist).

That's as far from Pentecostal as East is from the West.