Sabbath

[SophieT]

Even the lowly rabbit in the Disney Movie "Bambi" knew that if you can't say anything good about somebody, don't say anything at all..

you have egg all over your face

Disney is fantasy. this, is real life.

you simply thought you could snipe at me in this thread because it is about the Sabbath.

but of course it must have been...cough cough.....unintentional

 

[MalikB]

So why was Paul allowed to pick and choose which laws were obsolete, and which ones weren't? Why were circumcision and fasting laws ended, but the Sabbath was not?

Chapter and verse please

 

[SophieT]

so tell us why you are not sure of where you stand spiritually?

and then tell us how it is that while you are not sure, you address others and think you have something to say that is worthwhile?

just ridiculous

 

[rstrats]

[QUOTE="eternally-gratefull, post: 4622835, member: 82611

5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; [a]and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it

This is in reference to the sabbath, there is no other "day" it could be talking about [/QUOTE]


As MalikB touched on, the subject/context of the whole chapter of Romans 14 from start to finish has to do with regard to food practices. "Paul is writing about asceticism. Some in the church at Rome believed Christians should eat only vegetables. Paul calls these people 'weak in the faith' (verses 1-2). The stronger in faith know they could also eat meat. Nothing in God’s law prescribes vegetarianism. The stronger in faith knew they were free from non-biblical asceticism. A part of the controversy that had sprung up between the weak and the strong Christians was the esteeming of days. In Rome some people had the pagan idea that on certain days certain foods should or should not be eaten. In this whole chapter Paul was just showing that others should not be offended, particularly weak members who have not yet learned the truth about the proper Christian diet and that they should not be judged by the stronger in the faith." Nothing is said with regard to the Sabbath.



Hasting's Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics.
"We assume, because we have been raised with an anti- Torah bias, that the text must be talking about Sabbath, but that is a pure assumption not required by the text. To say that the verse must mean, that if we are honoring the Sabbath as God commands numerous times and places throughout Scripture (not a gray area), that those who do so are weak in the faith, is an interpretation coming from an anti- Torah bias that has been imposed on the text, but which the text does not require."

A footnote in Calvin'sCommentaries regarding verses 5-6: " It has been suggested as a question by some, whether the Christian Sabbath is included here? The very subject in hand proves that it is not."

Expositor's Greek Testament with reagard to verse 5:"It is not probable that there is any reference...to the Jewish Sabbath..."

 

[MalikB]

eph 2 refutes this
Romans 4 refutes this
Titus 3 refutes this

I can go on and on and on.

You want to boast of earning your salvation. You will boast to yourself. As Paul said. If Abraham was found by works, he has something to boast about. But not before God.

Many will come to God on that day boasting of their works. And Jesus will say depart for he never knew you.

Nobody was doing any boasting, I' ve addressed paul's writings many times... if you want to exchange interpretations on specific verses one at a time, we can.

 

[MalikB]

I already answered this (as you are apt to say) As well as james

if we keep the whole law yet stumble in one point we are guilty of all.

How does this relate to verse 19 stating our position in heaven based on the law we do and teach?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

1. It is not about "keeping" the law how we view the word today. Although we all fall short, its about guarding it, protecting it and doing our best to follow it..... definitely not disregarding it and teaching others to do the same. (Mat 5:19 again)

Thats not what Christianity is about man. You can still do your best, you will still fall short. Doing that causes you to be cursed.

How is a christian to be encouraged when he continues to look at the law. and if they are honest with themselves understand they fall short?

They can/t unless they water down the law or decieve themselves that they are keeping it.

God requires perfection. If you are not perfect. You have failed to keep the law. Those are moses words and pauls. Both who were inspired by God himself

Your argument is with them my friend, and God, not me

2. How do you define righteousness? Is it not righteous to follow gods instructions... aka follow law?

God defines righteousness. If you keep the whole law yet STUMBLE in one area, Your guilty.

For all have sinned and fall short.

To be righteous is to be PERFECT. as Jesus himself said. why do you call me good (righteous) no one is good but God. Your not God my friend. Neither am I!

3. A non-believer can not follow the law. That is the whole point of us needing The Messiah. The Pharisees were not following the law. either. Some may have been trying, but they ended up taking away and adding to it.... Like washing your hands before you eat. Again, we needed the Messiah to show us how we are REALLY supposed to keep law.

No one can follow the law. No one has and no one will. Mess up one time and your done. You have failed to keep the law.

But. Non believers can obey commands.

Thats your problem. your trying to mix commands with the law. CO0mmands are far above the law my friend.

4. I agree... The question is what did this grace provide? 1. It provided freedom from the penalties for sin (breaking the law) under the first covenant... E.G. animal sacrifice, stoning. 2. It provided a role model for us to learn how to follow God's instructions (law) how they were meant to be followed.... these two things gave us a second chance at life.

Or to put it in the words of scripture

Heb 10: 4 for by one offering he has perfected forever those who are being sanctified

col 2: 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.

Gal 3: 13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

I can continue but I hope you get the point

5. We follow the law because we respect, honor and love our creator and believe he knows what's best, not because we want to get something out of it. Our hearts being in the right place prevents us from going astray from the law like the Pharisees. Regardless of our reasons though, the Father still makes it clear that there have been and still are benefits for doing what He says and consequences for not.

BUT YOU CANT FOLLOW THE LAW!

Wake up man, You are decieved. Paul spent a lifetime apposing people like you who try to impose on others the burden that the jews could not handle. Obeying the law.

The law was not given to show you how to live I have proved that.

What you said Paul made clear is about "grace"... Yes, when we do receive grace it is free. We don't deserve it and its nothing that we did to get it. However grace does not apply to all of the blessings we receive from the Father. There are still conditional benefits and consequences.

Salvation is by Grace.

It is NOT OF WORKS

If you teaching we can lose salvation. or must maintain it by obeying the law then you are teaching works.

If you are not. and are teaching sanctification comes by the law. Your still wrong. The law was for the sinner, not the believer.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

[QUOTE="eternally-gratefull, post: 4622835, member: 82611

5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; [a]and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it

This is in reference to the sabbath, there is no other "day" it could be talking about

As MalikB touched on, the subject/context of the whole chapter of Romans 14 from start to finish has to do with regard to food practices. "Paul is writing about asceticism. Some in the church at Rome believed Christians should eat only vegetables. Paul calls these people 'weak in the faith' (verses 1-2). The stronger in faith know they could also eat meat. Nothing in God’s law prescribes vegetarianism. The stronger in faith knew they were free from non-biblical asceticism. A part of the controversy that had sprung up between the weak and the strong Christians was the esteeming of days. In Rome some people had the pagan idea that on certain days certain foods should or should not be eaten. In this whole chapter Paul was just showing that others should not be offended, particularly weak members who have not yet learned the truth about the proper Christian diet and that they should not be judged by the stronger in the faith." Nothing is said with regard to the Sabbath.



Hasting's Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics.
"We assume, because we have been raised with an anti- Torah bias, that the text must be talking about Sabbath, but that is a pure assumption not required by the text. To say that the verse must mean, that if we are honoring the Sabbath as God commands numerous times and places throughout Scripture (not a gray area), that those who do so are weak in the faith, is an interpretation coming from an anti- Torah bias that has been imposed on the text, but which the text does not require."

A footnote in Calvin'sCommentaries regarding verses 5-6: " It has been suggested as a question by some, whether the Christian Sabbath is included here? The very subject in hand proves that it is not."

Expositor's Greek Testament with reagard to verse 5:"It is not probable that there is any reference...to the Jewish Sabbath..."[/QUOTE]
Sorry my friend

esteeming a day has nothing to do with food.

And we can use Col 2 to also confirm the same thing

Col 2: 16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a [j]festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the [k]substance is of Christ. 18 Let no one cheat you of your reward,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Nobody was doing any boasting, I' ve addressed paul's writings many times... if you want to exchange interpretations on specific verses one at a time, we can.

dude that is all you are doing is boasting.

But like most lawyers. You do not see it. Because you can't.

 

[MalikB]

No this is why people are confused today.

1 Timothy 1:7-10

7 desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor the things which they affirm.
8 But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, 9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers,

The law was made for the unbeliever to lead them to Christ (the sinner)

It is not for the righteous.. (the believer) who have been saved. as paul said. we are no longer under a tutor.

Desiring to be teachers of the law and not knowing it? This speaks of why there is confusion. Because peoplke like you love to teach it. But you have no understanding of its purpose or its meaning

As it says in verse 8... The law is good when used lawfully. You are not righteous just by your feelings. "Belief" in that culture required action. I already addressed the tutor verse in Galations. If you were paying attention, I was not teaching the laws themselves, just supporting the verses that say we are to keep them and responding to verses mainly in paul that I believe are misunderstood.

 

[MalikB]

fasting?

You need to learn how to read my friend

5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; [a]and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it

This is in reference to the sabbath, there is no other "day" it could be talking about

Research antiquities... There was a big debate at the time on which days were supposed to be fast days.

 

[MalikB]

you don't have questions

you have an agenda and I don't play the "I will if you will' game. it's childish

I ran into your bio and you don't know what you believe, so, LOL!

Your behavior and insults just show how belief alone does make you a real Christian (follower of Christ).

 

[eternally-gratefull]

How does this relate to verse 19 stating our position in heaven based on the law we do and teach?

I already showed you

18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one [b]jot or one [c]tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven

James 2:10
For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

They are saying the same thing.. Whoever breaks the least of these commands. Whoever stumbles in one point.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

As it says in verse 8... The law is good when used lawfully. You are not righteous just by your feelings. "Belief" in that culture required action. I already addressed the tutor verse in Galations. If you were paying attention, I was not teaching the laws themselves, just supporting the verses that say we are to keep them and responding to verses mainly in paul that I believe are misunderstood.

Yep. when using it LAWFULLY, ie, using it as a TUTOR.

You may have adressed the tutor. It does not mean you are right. In fact your dead wrong.

Paul said, plainly

WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF THE LAW.

Your claiming paul was wrong.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Research antiquities... There was a big debate at the time on which days were supposed to be fast days.

I am not worried about what Men say, I stopped worrying about that along time ago

I just take the word for what it says, God will judge me on that Not what someone else said.

Debate? ONE DAY.

what day? Give me another day it may be that the people who read this would think it might be? It could be any religious day, INCLUDING the sabbath.

 

[MalikB]

dude that is all you are doing is boasting.

But like most lawyers. You do not see it. Because you can't.

What is your definition of boasting? Nothing I've stated has been about me, accomplishments, self worth, etc. I have simply shared my beliefs and reasons for them. I have been the the one that others have talked about rather than sticking to the scriptures. Noone here has any idea of how I view myself personally.

 

[MalikB]

Yep. when using it LAWFULLY, ie, using it as a TUTOR.

You may have adressed the tutor. It does not mean you are right. In fact your dead wrong.

Paul said, plainly

WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF THE LAW.

Your claiming paul was wrong.

No... I just disagree with your interpretation of Paul. I ultimately believe we do not take the warning in 2nd peter 3:16-17 serious enough.

 

[MalikB]

so tell us why you are not sure of where you stand spiritually?

and then tell us how it is that while you are not sure, you address others and think you have something to say that is worthwhile?

just ridiculous

Who was this addressed to?

 

[SophieT]

Your behavior and insults just show how belief alone does make you a real Christian (follower of Christ).

that, is the actual definition of a personal attack...or ad hominem if you will

you cannot answer properly because your lie is exposed and so you hurl a personal attack

very good. nice to know that your observations on emotions applies first to you

 

[SophieT]

Who was this addressed to?

to you of course since you do not know where you stand spiritually but come here and want to tell people who do know where they stand, that you understand the Bible

how can you understand the Bible if you are unsure of your spiritual status?

don't come back with answer your questions because you do not have one legit question. first and foremost, why should anyone believe someone who is unsure of where they stand with God?


so tell us why you are not sure of where you stand spiritually?

and then tell us how it is that while you are not sure, you address others and think you have something to say that is worthwhile?