Sabbath

[eternally-gratefull]

I Have a Question, maybe more... Why does everyone quote Paul and not Jesus for this subject? I figure we would want the Masters words on this and not the Servants. Why do we interchange the words Commandment and Law? Are they the same and were they given at the same time?

Is paul inspired. Did he tell us what Jesus would not say? I thought ALL scripture was inspired (God breathed)

Did Jesus say the law was the means to sanctification?
Did Jesus not say no one is good but God? (I quoted these words)
Did Jesus not say, In this law (the law of love or the two commands) are all the law and prophets (I mentioned these words and this saying)
Did Jesus say we could fulfill the law? I thought he was adamant that no one had done that (except God of course)
Paul quotes Moses. Does moses have a say? Should we not listen to the one who was given the law?

Deuteronomy 27:26 (moses)
‘Cursed is the one who does not confirm all the words of this law by observing them.’ “And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’ ”

How about Jesus on the sermon on the mount?

Did Not Jesus say this?

Matt 5: 17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. (Jesus came to fulfill) 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Is this not the exact words James said in his epistle?

James 2: 17 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Is jesus here showing a biblical truth here. That these pharisees, WHo were the mother theresa's of their day, and according to the law were the most upright people on earth. tell us we must exceed theres if we are to even have hope?

Then did Not jesus say according to the command. WHich says this. But I tell you. it goes deeper than the command?

first murder:

21 “You have heard that it was said to those [d]of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother [e]without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, [g]‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire. 23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.

How about Adultry?

27 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Or how about swearing oaths?

3 “Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.’ 34 But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36 Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black. 37 But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.

Systematically Jesus telling us the the letter of the law says this, But we can break the law by doing other stuff not written. Why would he tell us these things unless the law was taken out of context by people (pharisees and people today trying to say we must obey the law by following it) because the law was given to SHOW we are sinners. Not to teach us HOW to be righteous people. It is weak in that area. Although it is PERFECT in the area of bring us all to knowledge we are under a curse and in need of atonement. Which was fulfilled by Christ himself. I can go on and on and on!

so I do not quite understand what you mean as I did speak of christ. But here I gave some more examples. do these help?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Doesn't Romans 14 apply to this topic, for those who believe keeping the Sabbath is not a salvation issue, but rather, something they do out of conscience? Paul didn't prohibit the Jewish believers from continuing their traditions and even participated himself as recorded in Acts, although he made clear that these are not a salvation issue (Galatians).

Romans 14
1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.

8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.

Yes.

He basically told sabbath keepers not to judge non saturday sabbath keepers. and non saturday sabbath keepers not to judge sabbath keepers.

which also shows. it is not a salvation issue.

 

[MalikB]

a few comments

1. Paul told us the purpose of the law

a. To bring everyone to the understanding they have sinned
b. To bring everyone to the understanding that because we have sinned, we are cursed
c. To lead us to christ.

2. Paul said that once a person has come to Christ.

A. They are no longer under the “tutor”
b. They they have no more need of the law. It has been fulfilled in their life.

3. As long as there are unbelievers, Your right, the law is still in effect. They must fulfill the law to get to heaven under their own power. Unfortunately. As paul said, All have sinned and fall short of the Gods requirement or glory .. (ie, no one is good but God, as Jesus said,) hence everyone who is not a believer is cursed. As jesus said, whoever does not believe is condemned (cursed) already.

what the law is not

1. A means to salvation
2. A means to KEEP or MAINTAIN salvation after we are saved
3. A means to achieve sanctification (It can not tell us how to be righteous people. It only can show us partially how unrighteousness we are. Remember,Jesus only gave ten commands, we cant even keep them, let alone everything he requires. This is WHY he said when we see him we will Know.

For the believer, the law is set aside. And we come under a new law. The law of Love. As jesus said, Love God with everything in you. And love your neighbor as yourself. Sin, by definition IS breaking the law. But that is not the only way to sin, Sin in its purest form is failing the law of love. Failing to love God or your neighbor (which included your enemy) is a sin. And this will lead to us breaking the commands.

People who teach we are still under and must follow law are missing the point of the law. And failing to see Gods truth of what real sin and what real righteousness looks like. Jesus walked the way he did because he had such deep love. Not because he was trying to obey the law. You can appear to follow the ten commands by keeping some form of the ten commands, and never physically commiting adultry, fornication, stealing etc. and thinking you are a righteous person. While continuing to be a sinful person who is lacking in any righteous way (internally) like the pharisees were. Thats why religion is bad. Because it looks to self. And not to God and others.

Seek ye the things of God, Get in step with the spirit, and love everyone above yourself. And this is theway to sanctification. Becoming like Christ. And become a mature believer.

Its not found in the law

I addressed most of your points here with supporting scriptures in my reply to you and in the original post. As I stated before, much of this confusion comes from the misunderstanding of Paul's writings as we were warned about in 2nd peter 3:16... and confusion from the traditions introduced under Constantine's rulership.

The law (instructions from the Father) have never been the issue... it has always been man's inability to keep the law correctly that was the problem (like the Pharisees). If you are following the law CORRECTLY, you automatically have love. The idea that "love" and "belief" can stand on their own without action are modern western concepts. To say that you "love" or "believe" without the action would have never been accepted in the culture of the original followers of Christ. 1 John 5:3 says IF we love Him we keep His commandments.... I'm sure most here have heard "faith without works is dead" as well. We are not saved by just having the feeling of belief. In the Israelite culture, it was automatically implied that believing in something also meant taking the associated actions. Us reading scripture through our western culture lens is why we end up separating the the two.

The "grace" we received is a "pass" from the penalties (sin/curse) associated with the law under the first covenant. It was not a pass from keeping the law (a blessing) going forward into the renewed covenant. Grace is a free pass from penalty. In the case of the Messiah, it did its job by giving us a second chance... It payed our debt under the first covenant and supplied a way to learn how law was meant to be kept. This way we had a another chance under the renewed covenant. This grace does not change the blessing that keeping the law is and does not give us a pass for breaking these laws under the renewed covenant.

The Most High can step in and give us grace (a free pass), but the hard pill to swallow is that we can't count on grace to save us from the penalties under the renewed covenant. These free passes are rare blessings and for the most part, The Father's blessings are conditional... not free. An example of that is our prayers... Proverbs 28:9 says that if we turn away from law, even our prayers are an abomination. This is continued on to the renewed covenant in John 9:31.... God not hearing sinners, but hearing those that follow His will. Think about this as a parent... If u have a child that's refusing to follow your rules are you going continue to give them what they want from you?

All throughout scripture we have examples of this... You do what God says, you get the blessings.... you don't, you get the curses. It's as simple as that. This has never changed... and according to The Messiah in Matt 5:19 this even affects our placement in Heaven.

 

[tourist]

just for ya'll who do not know- the seventh day advent church, founded by ellen white, who claimed to have been visited by and angel and told so, believes that non-Sabbath keepers are those who have taken the mark of the beast...

That was her own personal belief.

 

[SophieT]

That was her own personal belief.

just for ya'll who do not know- the seventh day advent church, founded by ellen white, who claimed to have been visited by and angel and told so, believes that non-Sabbath keepers are those who have taken the mark of the beast...

actually, we have had a video...over one hr long....introduced into this thread 3 times, in the last few days that says exactly that

apparently Ellen rubbed off and continues to rub off on 7th day adherents

 

[SophieT]

The Most High can step in and give us grace (a free pass), but the hard pill to swallow is that we can't count on grace to save us from the penalties under the renewed covenant.

you have made up a phoney gospel.

The law (instructions from the Father) have never been the issue... it has always been man's inability to keep the law correctly that was the problem (like the Pharisees). If you are following the law CORRECTLY, you automatically have love. The idea that "love" and "belief" can stand on their own without action are modern western concepts. To say that you "love" or "believe" without the action would have never been accepted in the culture of the original followers of Christ. 1 John 5:3 says IF we love Him we keep His commandments.... I'm sure most here have heard "faith without works is dead" as well. We are not saved by just having the feeling of belief. In the Israelite culture, it was automatically implied that believing in something also meant taking the associated actions. Us reading scripture through our western culture lens is why we end up separating the the two.

a gospel of works is not the gospel. you are promoting a lie

 

[SophieT]

All throughout scripture we have examples of this... You do what God says, you get the blessings.... you don't, you get the curses. It's as simple as that. This has never changed... and according to The Messiah in Matt 5:19 this even affects our placement in Heaven.

a very bad summary of scripture and once again, confusion and not the gospel, but a deliberate attempt to add to Christ's sacrifice

you are cursed if you plan to abide by the law. scripture states plainly:

All who rely on works of the law are under a curse. For it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” Galatians 3:10

I don't care anymore if a person is so obtuse they cannot understand that salvation is freedom from the law. I just really don't. What I do care about, is when a person who does not know their Bible comes along and they are influenced by someone who is peddling the law instead of salvation through Christ

 

[MalikB]

Yes.

He basically told sabbath keepers not to judge non saturday sabbath keepers. and non saturday sabbath keepers not to judge sabbath keepers.

which also shows. it is not a salvation issue.

Romans 14 is not about the sabbath. There was a big debate at the time regarding how to fast... mainly what days. Not only are many of Paul's writings misinterpreted because of a language and culture barrier, like other scriptures they are often taken out of context to support a certain agenda or our own egos. This is a response letter about fasting.

 

[SophieT]

I saw this reply late, but I already covered the majority of this. Paul's writings are the most difficult to understand (2nd Peter 3:16) and have therefore become the most misrepresented writings in scripture. But if I did come to the conclusion that Paul was teaching that the law no longer applied, I would definitely side with the eyewitness accounts and quotes of the Messiah in the gospels, Peter,.... as well as the torah. You are simply incorrect about the original Christians and the Sabbath. This change was done under the pagan rulership of Constantine.

I am sorry you find Paul's letters hard to understand, but honestly, I don't know what is hard to understand about

1O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing with faith?

3Are you so foolish? After starting in the Spirit, are you now finishing in the flesh? 4Have you suffered so much for nothing, if it really was for nothing? 5Does God lavish His Spirit on you and work miracles among you because you practice the law, or because you hear and believe?

6So also, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”a 7Understand, then, that those who have faith are sons of Abraham. 8The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and foretold the gospel to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”b 9So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

Christ Has Redeemed Us

10All who rely on works of the law are under a curse. For it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”c 11Now it is clear that no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.”d 12The law, however, is not based on faith; on the contrary, “The man who does these things will live by them.”e

13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us. For it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.”f 14He redeemed us in order that the blessing promised to Abraham would come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit. Galatians 3

perhaps the actual problem is that some people cannot fit Paul's theology into their bent towards law keeping and worshipping the Sabbath instead of the One who is Lord of the Sabbath

You are simply incorrect about the original Christians and the Sabbath. This change was done under the pagan rulership of Constantine.

well that is what you like to promote, but that is a lie

 

[MalikB]

you have made up a phoney gospel.




a gospel of works is not the gospel. you are promoting a lie

Incorrect... It is a gospel of works AND faith... The masculine and feminine. They are not to be separated. On either side, one without the other leads to destruction.

 

[SophieT]

The law is forever and those that teach otherwise risk the consequences of Matthew 5:19. We would not be teaching today that this law did not apply if the original followers of Christ were not murdered, enslaved, etc. and forced to adopt the ways of the ruling power at the time.

Most of the examples that are used in Christianity to teach that we are free from law can be found in Paul's writings. IF I came to the conclusion that Paul was actually teaching the law no longer applied, I would consider him a false prophet... But I don't believe that to be the case. What I believe happens with Paul's writings in Christianity is exactly what we were warned about in 2nd Peter 3:16... Because his writings are hard to understand, they get distorted... and we get lead to our own destruction. The very next verse says to be on guard and not to get carried away by the deception of lawless people.

Like I mentioned in my initial post, when we speak of law, we fail to acknowledge the separation between the law itself... and the penalties for not keeping law (sin). Duet 11:26-28 makes this difference clear.... Keeping the law is a "blessing"... Breaking the law is the "curse". We were freed from the "curse of the law"... meaning the penalties. The penalty for sin (breaking law) is death... which is what the Messiah paid. We were not freed from keeping the law... that is a blessing. I used this analogy in my original post... The Messiah did not take down the speed limit sign, he just paid one big ticket.

We are freed from penalties of the law under the first covenant (stoning, animal sacrifice, etc.), but we will still be judged under the renewed one. Duet 11:26-28 showed us that whether or not we kept these laws determined whether we were blessed or cursed.... The Messiah showed us in Matt 5:19 that law based blessings and curses are even carried on to heaven.


Praise Yah!

why then are we told we are cursed if we try to follow it?

you are leading people astray from the gospel...and back into slavery and captivity

the law does not apply to those who are under grace, those saved by faith and bought with the blood of Christ

Paul is not hard to understand. you just can't combine more than half the NT with the nonsense you SDA folks and other Sabbatarians like to wallow in

the law is not a blessing. the law sends people to hell. wake up

 

[MalikB]

a very bad summary of scripture and once again, confusion and not the gospel, but a deliberate attempt to add to Christ's sacrifice

you are cursed if you plan to abide by the law. scripture states plainly:

All who rely on works of the law are under a curse. For it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” Galatians 3:10

I don't care anymore if a person is so obtuse they cannot understand that salvation is freedom from the law. I just really don't. What I do care about, is when a person who does not know their Bible comes along and they are influenced by someone who is peddling the law instead of salvation through Christ

How do you justify Matt 5:18 and 19?

 

[SophieT]

anyway Malik, you are in a Christian forum...not a Sabbatarian cult club

you are not here to give praise to Christ...you are here to give praise to your works and I don't have any more time right now to refute the lies of what you believe

 

[SophieT]

How do you justify Matt 5:18 and 19?

how do you justify salvation by faith alone? oh wait you can't

we are in a new covenant...the law was a shadow of what was to come

you are quite confused about scripture, which seems to be the common denominator between all those who combine the old and new testaments and produce a fake gospel and a works salvation

 

[SophieT]

oh this is even better

perhaps you can inform us why you think your spiritual status is unsure

what business do you have trying to tell people who ARE sure, how they should follow you instead of the Bible?

Spiritual Status: unsure

check it out. he is not even sure what he believes himself

you can't make this stuff up

 

[MalikB]

why then are we told we are cursed if we try to follow it?

you are leading people astray from the gospel...and back into slavery and captivity

the law does not apply to those who are under grace, those saved by faith and bought with the blood of Christ

Paul is not hard to understand. you just can't combine more than half the NT with the nonsense you SDA folks and other Sabbatarians like to wallow in

the law is not a blessing. the law sends people to hell. wake up

Ad hominem attacks do not represent the Christianity you claim to follow. Many people get emotional when their long held beliefs are challenged.

 

[SophieT]

Ad hominem attacks do not represent the Christianity you claim to follow. Many people get emotional when their long held beliefs are challenged.

LOL!

I reported a FACT dude. that is not a personal attack

are you ridiculous? you don't know what you believe yourself and here you are, spouting off to everyone

I mean seriously?

 

[MalikB]

how do you justify salvation by faith alone? oh wait you can't

we are in a new covenant...the law was a shadow of what was to come

you are quite confused about scripture, which seems to be the common denominator between all those who combine the old and new testaments and produce a fake gospel and a works salvation

So throw away the foundation of scripture... which is what the Messiah, the disciples, even Paul taught from and continuously referenced? This is why people are so confused today... Pick up a book translated from a different language, from people that lived a totally different culture, start reading it in the middle and think they can have a clear summary of it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I addressed most of your points here with supporting scriptures in my reply to you and in the original post. As I stated before, much of this confusion comes from the misunderstanding of Paul's writings as we were warned about in 2nd peter 3:16... and confusion from the traditions introduced under Constantine's rulership.

The law (instructions from the Father) have never been the issue... it has always been man's inability to keep the law correctly that was the problem (like the Pharisees). If you are following the law CORRECTLY, you automatically have love. The idea that "love" and "belief" can stand on their own without action are modern western concepts. To say that you "love" or "believe" without the action would have never been accepted in the culture of the original followers of Christ. 1 John 5:3 says IF we love Him we keep His commandments.... I'm sure most here have heard "faith without works is dead" as well. We are not saved by just having the feeling of belief. In the Israelite culture, it was automatically implied that believing in something also meant taking the associated actions. Us reading scripture through our western culture lens is why we end up separating the the two.

The "grace" we received is a "pass" from the penalties (sin/curse) associated with the law under the first covenant. It was not a pass from keeping the law (a blessing) going forward into the renewed covenant. Grace is a free pass from penalty. In the case of the Messiah, it did its job by giving us a second chance... It payed our debt under the first covenant and supplied a way to learn how law was meant to be kept. This way we had a another chance under the renewed covenant. This grace does not change the blessing that keeping the law is and does not give us a pass for breaking these laws under the renewed covenant.

The Most High can step in and give us grace (a free pass), but the hard pill to swallow is that we can't count on grace to save us from the penalties under the renewed covenant. These free passes are rare blessings and for the most part, The Father's blessings are conditional... not free. An example of that is our prayers... Proverbs 28:9 says that if we turn away from law, even our prayers are an abomination. This is continued on to the renewed covenant in John 9:31.... God not hearing sinners, but hearing those that follow His will. Think about this as a parent... If u have a child that's refusing to follow your rules are you going continue to give them what they want from you?

All throughout scripture we have examples of this... You do what God says, you get the blessings.... you don't, you get the curses. It's as simple as that. This has never changed... and according to The Messiah in Matt 5:19 this even affects our placement in Heaven.

1. You CANT keep the law. If you think you can. You are in trouble
2. The law was not given to show you HOW to be righteous. It was given to show you how UNRIGHTEOUS you really are. (If you think you are keeping the law. then the law is not doing what it is supposed to do in your life. at this point, I would question if the law has led you to christ at all)
3. Keep Gods commands.. A person who is doing what I suggested will by practice keep his commands. A non believer can follow the law and keep Gods commands. Yet they are still in sin.. So trying to keep the law. as the pharisees did. and teaching others to do the same is religion. Not christian growth or the gospel.
4. Salvation is By grace. As paul said numerous times, If it is of grace, it is not of works. otherwise grace is no longer grace. If we have to do something to EARN salvation,. or to keep from losing salvation. we are trying to earn a reward. not a gift. and we BOAST of our salvation just as many people are doing here.
5. Earning rewards and blessing here on earth, That is of works. And what you posted about the requirements, this is about sanctification. Not justification/salvation.

To many people mix sanctification with salvation. These people are trusting in self. Not God and do not understand what being justified by Grace through faith is.

Paul made it clear. It is NOT by any work of righteousness (good deed) we have done. but it is by GODS mercy he saved us.

If your gonna add works to earning eternal life. You are preaching a different gospel. plain and simple

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Romans 14 is not about the sabbath. There was a big debate at the time regarding how to fast... mainly what days. Not only are many of Paul's writings misinterpreted because of a language and culture barrier, like other scriptures they are often taken out of context to support a certain agenda or our own egos. This is a response letter about fasting.

It most certainly is my friend.

You are not to judge me and I am not to judge you.

But if your doing it to earn salvation. You will be judged. although not by me