Repentance is the Gift Of God !
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Someone who does not believe the doctrine you espouse does not equal that person not accepting "what it means for God to gift faith or repentance".
All believers on this site freely acknowledge that God is the Giver of all.
When someone gives a gift, you receive the gift. What "stake in the process" can you "claim as [your] own" in receiving the gift?
[Hint: None}
All believers on this site freely acknowledge that God is the Giver of all.
When someone gives a gift, you receive the gift. What "stake in the process" can you "claim as [your] own" in receiving the gift?
[Hint: None}
Please provide chapter and verse wherein "Scripture states it explicitly" that "Christians are grafted into spiritual Israel".
Like I told brightfame52 the other day ... Call God's people what God calls His people ...
https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=%22spiritual+Israel%22&t=KJV#s=s_primary_0_1
Like I told brightfame52 the other day ... Call God's people what God calls His people ...
https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=%22spiritual+Israel%22&t=KJV#s=s_primary_0_1
I will take a few of your points and respond:
You said:
Paul makes distinction between the children of the flesh (Ishmael) and the children of promise (Isaac).
But you dislike the term "spiritual Israel". Spiritual Israel is just another way of saying the Israel of promise. It is a logical progression of the idea laid out in Scripture:
1 ) 1Co_2:15 But he that is spiritual is judging all things, and he himself is judged of no man.
2 ) 1Co_15:46 Howbeit that is not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; then that which is spiritual.
3 ) 1Pe_2:5 ye also, as living stones, are built up a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
These verses are about the completed believers, God's Elect. A spiritual person is considered to be a person who is mature (#1), a person who started out as a natural man and became spiritual by means of Regeneration and Conversion - finally in glorification. This DOES NOT mean that we become spirits but become spiritually minded people. (#2), Each believer is a "living stone" being built up into a spiritual house, (#3).
Therefore, by extension, the elect Jews who make up the true Israel are indeed spiritual believers. Thus, the acceptable term "spiritual Israel" as distinguished from the "natural Israel". You made the exact same distinction by using the terms "flesh" and "promise".
You said:
Please note that before Esau was born, God told Rebekah the elder shall serve the younger (Gen 25:23).
Do you know where it is written Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated? A lot of people think that was written before Esau was born. However, it was long after Esau's death when God made that statement (Malachi 1:2-3).
Yes God did inform Rebekah of this fact, Gen. 25:23. Which proves the future of these two children had already been laid out by God from eternity. The Lord just did not tell Rebekah how this was going to take place. Often times in Scripture, God does not reveal how He is going to bring about His purpose. As it turned out, Esau sold his birthright. The same kind of thing occurred in Joseph's life. Gen 50:20 But as for you, ye purposed evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive. There was no way Joseph could have understood what God was doing in his life, until what occurred was completed.
As far as the verse "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated?" is concerned, your argument ignored the immediate context of Romans 9. Paul wanted to make sure his point was clearly understood and said this:
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
This verse needs no clarification nor personal interpretation. It speaks loudly and clearly to the Truth. But I suspect you already know this and intentionally left it out because it does not suit your Theology. There is no doubt that Paul knew of these verses in Malachi but there is also no doubt that he further explained these two verses to the Roman believers.
You said:
No one on this site denies God's mercy or God's compassion.
Ahhh, but many on this site deny the Scriptural evidence that God's mercy and compassion are shown only to the ELECT. Even to the denying of plain understanding of these Scriptures. The emphasis of Rom. 9:15&16, is NOT on God's mercy and compassion BUT on His Sovereignty. Look closely again, please:
Rom 9:15 For he said to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that wills, nor of him that is running, but of God that shows mercy.
These statements of God here in Romans harmonizes perfectly with those given in John Ch. 6:44, 63 &65 - as well as others).
You said:
Do you believe Philippians 2:13 refers to God being at work within the unbeliever?
God does work in the unbeliever - such as turning the Kings heart like a river, which ever way He pleases. Or the hardening of Pharaoh's heart, etc.. but not in the way which is being spoken of in Eph. 2:13. This is about believers and not the lost. What God is doing in Eph. 2:13 is directly linked to those of Eph. 1:4-6.
Finally, You said:
I believe God allows mankind to reject Him, His goodness, His grace and mercy, and in rejecting, people live with the consequence of their decisions.
God does allow mankind to reject Him in a certain sense of this word but it most be carefully understood. There are TWO different calls understood in the Doctrine of Soteriology. The first is the "General Call" of the Gospel. This call can be heard by every listener but is not effectual in the listener. It was discussed in the parable of the sower:
Mat 13:3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
This is the Gospel message proclaimed.
Mat 13:4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
The gospel message fell upon those who cared nothing about the subject.
Mat 13:5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
Mat 13:6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
A part of the message was heard and it caused a temporary emotional reaction and a decision for Christ but it soon wore off and that person drifts away from the things of the church and Christ and returns to the old ways.
Mat 13:7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
Again, a temporary emotional reaction causes this one to make a profession of faith but the persons they hang out with and the problems of life return them to the old ways. The Gospel message is choked off.
The second "Calling" is known as the "Effectual Call". This calling is in the same parable and is the only one which is legitimate.
Mat 13:8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
Mat 13:9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Here the Gospel message is heard by one who had been prepared before hand in the new birth, just like Lydia in the book of Acts. This being born again (Regeneration), gives to that person ears to hear, which is a metaphor for a spiritually discerning mind.... a new nature. This person and only this person will bring about good fruit, or in other words, works that are pleasing to God.
Because man's fallen nature is "darkness" according to Scripture and his mind possesses no ability to discern spiritual things (1 cor. 2:13&14). He rejects coming to the Lord because this is 180 degrees opposed to his/her nature. Darkness does not yearn for the light. (Rom.3:10-12).
Therefore, only by God's Sovereign Grace can one be brought into a new nature (The new birth) in Regeneration and begin a movement towards God in a genuine Conversion experience. God's purpose in Election comes out of God's purpose from eternity and guarantees that the one elected will be born again in God's appointed time. Once that person in Regeneration has been given a new spirit and a heart of flesh to replace the heart of stone, he/she will move towards their Saviour Jesus Christ and believe on Him. Because the Holy Spirit which indwells he/she since the new birth, is both the guarantor and the seal.
This individual, having been so graced, will never turn back to their old ways nor will they ever reject God because it is not in the will of God and what God begins He will finish, this is the promise of God in Scripture. In addition, there is nothing in the New Nature that desires to go back to the darkness. This person will sin and can be temporarily deceived and stumble. Just look at King David. However the promise is, that this one will be brought to the finish line fully held in the hand of the Lord.
Joh_6:37 All that which the Father giveth me shall come unto me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
You said:
Paul makes distinction between the children of the flesh (Ishmael) and the children of promise (Isaac).
But you dislike the term "spiritual Israel". Spiritual Israel is just another way of saying the Israel of promise. It is a logical progression of the idea laid out in Scripture:
1 ) 1Co_2:15 But he that is spiritual is judging all things, and he himself is judged of no man.
2 ) 1Co_15:46 Howbeit that is not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; then that which is spiritual.
3 ) 1Pe_2:5 ye also, as living stones, are built up a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
These verses are about the completed believers, God's Elect. A spiritual person is considered to be a person who is mature (#1), a person who started out as a natural man and became spiritual by means of Regeneration and Conversion - finally in glorification. This DOES NOT mean that we become spirits but become spiritually minded people. (#2), Each believer is a "living stone" being built up into a spiritual house, (#3).
Therefore, by extension, the elect Jews who make up the true Israel are indeed spiritual believers. Thus, the acceptable term "spiritual Israel" as distinguished from the "natural Israel". You made the exact same distinction by using the terms "flesh" and "promise".
You said:
Please note that before Esau was born, God told Rebekah the elder shall serve the younger (Gen 25:23).
Do you know where it is written Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated? A lot of people think that was written before Esau was born. However, it was long after Esau's death when God made that statement (Malachi 1:2-3).
Yes God did inform Rebekah of this fact, Gen. 25:23. Which proves the future of these two children had already been laid out by God from eternity. The Lord just did not tell Rebekah how this was going to take place. Often times in Scripture, God does not reveal how He is going to bring about His purpose. As it turned out, Esau sold his birthright. The same kind of thing occurred in Joseph's life. Gen 50:20 But as for you, ye purposed evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive. There was no way Joseph could have understood what God was doing in his life, until what occurred was completed.
As far as the verse "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated?" is concerned, your argument ignored the immediate context of Romans 9. Paul wanted to make sure his point was clearly understood and said this:
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
This verse needs no clarification nor personal interpretation. It speaks loudly and clearly to the Truth. But I suspect you already know this and intentionally left it out because it does not suit your Theology. There is no doubt that Paul knew of these verses in Malachi but there is also no doubt that he further explained these two verses to the Roman believers.
You said:
No one on this site denies God's mercy or God's compassion.
Ahhh, but many on this site deny the Scriptural evidence that God's mercy and compassion are shown only to the ELECT. Even to the denying of plain understanding of these Scriptures. The emphasis of Rom. 9:15&16, is NOT on God's mercy and compassion BUT on His Sovereignty. Look closely again, please:
Rom 9:15 For he said to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that wills, nor of him that is running, but of God that shows mercy.
These statements of God here in Romans harmonizes perfectly with those given in John Ch. 6:44, 63 &65 - as well as others).
You said:
Do you believe Philippians 2:13 refers to God being at work within the unbeliever?
God does work in the unbeliever - such as turning the Kings heart like a river, which ever way He pleases. Or the hardening of Pharaoh's heart, etc.. but not in the way which is being spoken of in Eph. 2:13. This is about believers and not the lost. What God is doing in Eph. 2:13 is directly linked to those of Eph. 1:4-6.
Finally, You said:
I believe God allows mankind to reject Him, His goodness, His grace and mercy, and in rejecting, people live with the consequence of their decisions.
God does allow mankind to reject Him in a certain sense of this word but it most be carefully understood. There are TWO different calls understood in the Doctrine of Soteriology. The first is the "General Call" of the Gospel. This call can be heard by every listener but is not effectual in the listener. It was discussed in the parable of the sower:
Mat 13:3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
This is the Gospel message proclaimed.
Mat 13:4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
The gospel message fell upon those who cared nothing about the subject.
Mat 13:5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
Mat 13:6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
A part of the message was heard and it caused a temporary emotional reaction and a decision for Christ but it soon wore off and that person drifts away from the things of the church and Christ and returns to the old ways.
Mat 13:7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
Again, a temporary emotional reaction causes this one to make a profession of faith but the persons they hang out with and the problems of life return them to the old ways. The Gospel message is choked off.
The second "Calling" is known as the "Effectual Call". This calling is in the same parable and is the only one which is legitimate.
Mat 13:8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
Mat 13:9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Here the Gospel message is heard by one who had been prepared before hand in the new birth, just like Lydia in the book of Acts. This being born again (Regeneration), gives to that person ears to hear, which is a metaphor for a spiritually discerning mind.... a new nature. This person and only this person will bring about good fruit, or in other words, works that are pleasing to God.
Because man's fallen nature is "darkness" according to Scripture and his mind possesses no ability to discern spiritual things (1 cor. 2:13&14). He rejects coming to the Lord because this is 180 degrees opposed to his/her nature. Darkness does not yearn for the light. (Rom.3:10-12).
Therefore, only by God's Sovereign Grace can one be brought into a new nature (The new birth) in Regeneration and begin a movement towards God in a genuine Conversion experience. God's purpose in Election comes out of God's purpose from eternity and guarantees that the one elected will be born again in God's appointed time. Once that person in Regeneration has been given a new spirit and a heart of flesh to replace the heart of stone, he/she will move towards their Saviour Jesus Christ and believe on Him. Because the Holy Spirit which indwells he/she since the new birth, is both the guarantor and the seal.
This individual, having been so graced, will never turn back to their old ways nor will they ever reject God because it is not in the will of God and what God begins He will finish, this is the promise of God in Scripture. In addition, there is nothing in the New Nature that desires to go back to the darkness. This person will sin and can be temporarily deceived and stumble. Just look at King David. However the promise is, that this one will be brought to the finish line fully held in the hand of the Lord.
Joh_6:37 All that which the Father giveth me shall come unto me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
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Apparently you dislike the term "children of promise" as you use the terminology "spiritual Israel" and "Israel of promise" in place and instead of using terminology used in Scripture. Do you have a problem using the terminology God has set forth in His Word? "children of promise" is much more Scripturally accurate than "spiritual Israel" or "Israel of promise".
I used terms as found in Scripture.
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
I used the same terminology we find in Scripture. Do you have a problem with me using words found in Scripture? If so, your issue is not with me ... your issue is with Scripture.
God knowing Esau would sell the birthright is not the same as Esau having no choice in selling the birthright. Esau had a choice. Esau was not going to die if he did not eat at that very moment ... Esau did not have to sell the birthright.
Of course Paul knew the verses in Malachi. This is implied when he wrote "as it is written". Paul knew exactly where it was written. However, Paul did not say that God said "Before they were born, Jacob have I loved but Esau have I hated". That is an assumption some have made in order to "suit [their] Theology".
Not true that "God's mercy and compassion are shown only to the ELECT".
Did you know that God gave mount Seir to Esau as a possession? ... and God destroyed the Horims (a type of nephilim) so that Esau and his children could dwell in Seir?
Deuteronomy 2:5 Meddle not with them; for I will not give you of their land, no, not so much as a foot breadth; because I have given mount Seir unto Esau for a possession.
Deuteronomy 2:22 As he did to the children of Esau, which dwelt in Seir, when he destroyed the Horims from before them; and they succeeded them, and dwelt in their stead even unto this day
Did we not just read that God said Jacob have I loved but Esau have I hated? And yet God showed mercy and compassion on Esau by giving mount Seir to Esau for a possession, as well as destroying the Horims so Esau could dwell in safety at mount Seir.
While that may not fit your paradigm, I find it totally awesome. What a great God we have in heaven!!!
Matthew 5:44-45 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Are we discussing Eph 2:13 or Philippians 2:13?
I know that is what you believe, but that is not what Scripture reveals. Scripture does not say that a person is born again before he or she hears the gospel and is born again.
Ephesians 1:13 very succinctly describes the process:
Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
We trust after we hear the word of truth, the gospel of salvation, then we believe, then we are sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise (born again).
Under your doctrine, a person is regenerated (born again) before he or she hears the gospel by which a person is born again. Quit twisting Scripture.
I used terms as found in Scripture.
Romans 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
I used the same terminology we find in Scripture. Do you have a problem with me using words found in Scripture? If so, your issue is not with me ... your issue is with Scripture.
God knowing Esau would sell the birthright is not the same as Esau having no choice in selling the birthright. Esau had a choice. Esau was not going to die if he did not eat at that very moment ... Esau did not have to sell the birthright.
awelight said:
Paul wanted to make sure his point was clearly understood and said this:
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
This verse needs no clarification nor personal interpretation. It speaks loudly and clearly to the Truth. But I suspect you already know this and intentionally left it out because it does not suit your Theology. There is no doubt that Paul knew of these verses in Malachi but there is also no doubt that he further explained these two verses to the Roman believers.
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
This verse needs no clarification nor personal interpretation. It speaks loudly and clearly to the Truth. But I suspect you already know this and intentionally left it out because it does not suit your Theology. There is no doubt that Paul knew of these verses in Malachi but there is also no doubt that he further explained these two verses to the Roman believers.
Not true that "God's mercy and compassion are shown only to the ELECT".
Did you know that God gave mount Seir to Esau as a possession? ... and God destroyed the Horims (a type of nephilim) so that Esau and his children could dwell in Seir?
Deuteronomy 2:5 Meddle not with them; for I will not give you of their land, no, not so much as a foot breadth; because I have given mount Seir unto Esau for a possession.
Deuteronomy 2:22 As he did to the children of Esau, which dwelt in Seir, when he destroyed the Horims from before them; and they succeeded them, and dwelt in their stead even unto this day
Did we not just read that God said Jacob have I loved but Esau have I hated? And yet God showed mercy and compassion on Esau by giving mount Seir to Esau for a possession, as well as destroying the Horims so Esau could dwell in safety at mount Seir.
While that may not fit your paradigm, I find it totally awesome. What a great God we have in heaven!!!
Matthew 5:44-45 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Are we discussing Eph 2:13 or Philippians 2:13?
I know that is what you believe, but that is not what Scripture reveals. Scripture does not say that a person is born again before he or she hears the gospel and is born again.
Ephesians 1:13 very succinctly describes the process:
Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
We trust after we hear the word of truth, the gospel of salvation, then we believe, then we are sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise (born again).
Under your doctrine, a person is regenerated (born again) before he or she hears the gospel by which a person is born again. Quit twisting Scripture.
I will take a few of your points and respond:
You said:
Paul makes distinction between the children of the flesh (Ishmael) and the children of promise (Isaac).
But you dislike the term "spiritual Israel". Spiritual Israel is just another way of saying the Israel of promise. It is a logical progression of the idea laid out in Scripture:
1 ) 1Co_2:15 But he that is spiritual is judging all things, and he himself is judged of no man.
2 ) 1Co_15:46 Howbeit that is not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; then that which is spiritual.
3 ) 1Pe_2:5 ye also, as living stones, are built up a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
These verses are about the completed believers, God's Elect. A spiritual person is considered to be a person who is mature (#1), a person who started out as a natural man and became spiritual by means of Regeneration and Conversion - finally in glorification. This DOES NOT mean that we become spirits but become spiritually minded people. (#2), Each believer is a "living stone" being built up into a spiritual house, (#3).
Therefore, by extension, the elect Jews who make up the true Israel are indeed spiritual believers. Thus, the acceptable term "spiritual Israel" as distinguished from the "natural Israel". You made the exact same distinction by using the terms "flesh" and "promise".
You said:
Please note that before Esau was born, God told Rebekah the elder shall serve the younger (Gen 25:23).
Do you know where it is written Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated? A lot of people think that was written before Esau was born. However, it was long after Esau's death when God made that statement (Malachi 1:2-3).
Yes God did inform Rebekah of this fact, Gen. 25:23. Which proves the future of these two children had already been laid out by God from eternity. The Lord just did not tell Rebekah how this was going to take place. Often times in Scripture, God does not reveal how He is going to bring about His purpose. As it turned out, Esau sold his birthright. The same kind of thing occurred in Joseph's life. Gen 50:20 But as for you, ye purposed evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive. There was no way Joseph could have understood what God was doing in his life, until what occurred was completed.
As far as the verse "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated?" is concerned, your argument ignored the immediate context of Romans 9. Paul wanted to make sure his point was clearly understood and said this:
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
This verse needs no clarification nor personal interpretation. It speaks loudly and clearly to the Truth. But I suspect you already know this and intentionally left it out because it does not suit your Theology. There is no doubt that Paul knew of these verses in Malachi but there is also no doubt that he further explained these two verses to the Roman believers.
You said:
No one on this site denies God's mercy or God's compassion.
Ahhh, but many on this site deny the Scriptural evidence that God's mercy and compassion are shown only to the ELECT. Even to the denying of plain understanding of these Scriptures. The emphasis of Rom. 9:15&16, is NOT on God's mercy and compassion BUT on His Sovereignty. Look closely again, please:
Rom 9:15 For he said to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that wills, nor of him that is running, but of God that shows mercy.
These statements of God here in Romans harmonizes perfectly with those given in John Ch. 6:44, 63 &65 - as well as others).
You said:
Do you believe Philippians 2:13 refers to God being at work within the unbeliever?
God does work in the unbeliever - such as turning the Kings heart like a river, which ever way He pleases. Or the hardening of Pharaoh's heart, etc.. but not in the way which is being spoken of in Eph. 2:13. This is about believers and not the lost. What God is doing in Eph. 2:13 is directly linked to those of Eph. 1:4-6.
Finally, You said:
I believe God allows mankind to reject Him, His goodness, His grace and mercy, and in rejecting, people live with the consequence of their decisions.
God does allow mankind to reject Him in a certain sense of this word but it most be carefully understood. There are TWO different calls understood in the Doctrine of Soteriology. The first is the "General Call" of the Gospel. This call can be heard by every listener but is not effectual in the listener. It was discussed in the parable of the sower:
Mat 13:3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
This is the Gospel message proclaimed.
Mat 13:4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
The gospel message fell upon those who cared nothing about the subject.
Mat 13:5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
Mat 13:6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
A part of the message was heard and it caused a temporary emotional reaction and a decision for Christ but it soon wore off and that person drifts away from the things of the church and Christ and returns to the old ways.
Mat 13:7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
Again, a temporary emotional reaction causes this one to make a profession of faith but the persons they hang out with and the problems of life return them to the old ways. The Gospel message is choked off.
The second "Calling" is known as the "Effectual Call". This calling is in the same parable and is the only one which is legitimate.
Mat 13:8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
Mat 13:9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Here the Gospel message is heard by one who had been prepared before hand in the new birth, just like Lydia in the book of Acts. This being born again (Regeneration), gives to that person ears to hear, which is a metaphor for a spiritually discerning mind.... a new nature. This person and only this person will bring about good fruit, or in other words, works that are pleasing to God.
Because man's fallen nature is "darkness" according to Scripture and his mind possesses no ability to discern spiritual things (1 cor. 2:13&14). He rejects coming to the Lord because this is 180 degrees opposed to his/her nature. Darkness does not yearn for the light. (Rom.3:10-12).
Therefore, only by God's Sovereign Grace can one be brought into a new nature (The new birth) in Regeneration and begin a movement towards God in a genuine Conversion experience. God's purpose in Election comes out of God's purpose from eternity and guarantees that the one elected will be born again in God's appointed time. Once that person in Regeneration has been given a new spirit and a heart of flesh to replace the heart of stone, he/she will move towards their Saviour Jesus Christ and believe on Him. Because the Holy Spirit which indwells he/she since the new birth, is both the guarantor and the seal.
This individual, having been so graced, will never turn back to their old ways nor will they ever reject God because it is not in the will of God and what God begins He will finish, this is the promise of God in Scripture. In addition, there is nothing in the New Nature that desires to go back to the darkness. This person will sin and can be temporarily deceived and stumble. Just look at King David. However the promise is, that this one will be brought to the finish line fully held in the hand of the Lord.
Joh_6:37 All that which the Father giveth me shall come unto me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
You said:
Paul makes distinction between the children of the flesh (Ishmael) and the children of promise (Isaac).
But you dislike the term "spiritual Israel". Spiritual Israel is just another way of saying the Israel of promise. It is a logical progression of the idea laid out in Scripture:
1 ) 1Co_2:15 But he that is spiritual is judging all things, and he himself is judged of no man.
2 ) 1Co_15:46 Howbeit that is not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; then that which is spiritual.
3 ) 1Pe_2:5 ye also, as living stones, are built up a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
These verses are about the completed believers, God's Elect. A spiritual person is considered to be a person who is mature (#1), a person who started out as a natural man and became spiritual by means of Regeneration and Conversion - finally in glorification. This DOES NOT mean that we become spirits but become spiritually minded people. (#2), Each believer is a "living stone" being built up into a spiritual house, (#3).
Therefore, by extension, the elect Jews who make up the true Israel are indeed spiritual believers. Thus, the acceptable term "spiritual Israel" as distinguished from the "natural Israel". You made the exact same distinction by using the terms "flesh" and "promise".
You said:
Please note that before Esau was born, God told Rebekah the elder shall serve the younger (Gen 25:23).
Do you know where it is written Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated? A lot of people think that was written before Esau was born. However, it was long after Esau's death when God made that statement (Malachi 1:2-3).
Yes God did inform Rebekah of this fact, Gen. 25:23. Which proves the future of these two children had already been laid out by God from eternity. The Lord just did not tell Rebekah how this was going to take place. Often times in Scripture, God does not reveal how He is going to bring about His purpose. As it turned out, Esau sold his birthright. The same kind of thing occurred in Joseph's life. Gen 50:20 But as for you, ye purposed evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive. There was no way Joseph could have understood what God was doing in his life, until what occurred was completed.
As far as the verse "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated?" is concerned, your argument ignored the immediate context of Romans 9. Paul wanted to make sure his point was clearly understood and said this:
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
This verse needs no clarification nor personal interpretation. It speaks loudly and clearly to the Truth. But I suspect you already know this and intentionally left it out because it does not suit your Theology. There is no doubt that Paul knew of these verses in Malachi but there is also no doubt that he further explained these two verses to the Roman believers.
You said:
No one on this site denies God's mercy or God's compassion.
Ahhh, but many on this site deny the Scriptural evidence that God's mercy and compassion are shown only to the ELECT. Even to the denying of plain understanding of these Scriptures. The emphasis of Rom. 9:15&16, is NOT on God's mercy and compassion BUT on His Sovereignty. Look closely again, please:
Rom 9:15 For he said to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that wills, nor of him that is running, but of God that shows mercy.
These statements of God here in Romans harmonizes perfectly with those given in John Ch. 6:44, 63 &65 - as well as others).
You said:
Do you believe Philippians 2:13 refers to God being at work within the unbeliever?
God does work in the unbeliever - such as turning the Kings heart like a river, which ever way He pleases. Or the hardening of Pharaoh's heart, etc.. but not in the way which is being spoken of in Eph. 2:13. This is about believers and not the lost. What God is doing in Eph. 2:13 is directly linked to those of Eph. 1:4-6.
Finally, You said:
I believe God allows mankind to reject Him, His goodness, His grace and mercy, and in rejecting, people live with the consequence of their decisions.
God does allow mankind to reject Him in a certain sense of this word but it most be carefully understood. There are TWO different calls understood in the Doctrine of Soteriology. The first is the "General Call" of the Gospel. This call can be heard by every listener but is not effectual in the listener. It was discussed in the parable of the sower:
Mat 13:3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
This is the Gospel message proclaimed.
Mat 13:4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
The gospel message fell upon those who cared nothing about the subject.
Mat 13:5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
Mat 13:6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
A part of the message was heard and it caused a temporary emotional reaction and a decision for Christ but it soon wore off and that person drifts away from the things of the church and Christ and returns to the old ways.
Mat 13:7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
Again, a temporary emotional reaction causes this one to make a profession of faith but the persons they hang out with and the problems of life return them to the old ways. The Gospel message is choked off.
The second "Calling" is known as the "Effectual Call". This calling is in the same parable and is the only one which is legitimate.
Mat 13:8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
Mat 13:9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Here the Gospel message is heard by one who had been prepared before hand in the new birth, just like Lydia in the book of Acts. This being born again (Regeneration), gives to that person ears to hear, which is a metaphor for a spiritually discerning mind.... a new nature. This person and only this person will bring about good fruit, or in other words, works that are pleasing to God.
Because man's fallen nature is "darkness" according to Scripture and his mind possesses no ability to discern spiritual things (1 cor. 2:13&14). He rejects coming to the Lord because this is 180 degrees opposed to his/her nature. Darkness does not yearn for the light. (Rom.3:10-12).
Therefore, only by God's Sovereign Grace can one be brought into a new nature (The new birth) in Regeneration and begin a movement towards God in a genuine Conversion experience. God's purpose in Election comes out of God's purpose from eternity and guarantees that the one elected will be born again in God's appointed time. Once that person in Regeneration has been given a new spirit and a heart of flesh to replace the heart of stone, he/she will move towards their Saviour Jesus Christ and believe on Him. Because the Holy Spirit which indwells he/she since the new birth, is both the guarantor and the seal.
This individual, having been so graced, will never turn back to their old ways nor will they ever reject God because it is not in the will of God and what God begins He will finish, this is the promise of God in Scripture. In addition, there is nothing in the New Nature that desires to go back to the darkness. This person will sin and can be temporarily deceived and stumble. Just look at King David. However the promise is, that this one will be brought to the finish line fully held in the hand of the Lord.
Joh_6:37 All that which the Father giveth me shall come unto me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
You can be "much plainer" if you would just answer the question:
When you say ...
... does this mean God never gave opportunity to repent to those who perish as God did not "select" them?
You know the question I am asking ... I've been asking you for quite awhile now. Why won't you answer the question? What's up with that?
When you say ...
"Only the select ones God gives repentance to repent, all others will perish in their sins, having not been given repentance."
... does this mean God never gave opportunity to repent to those who perish as God did not "select" them?
You know the question I am asking ... I've been asking you for quite awhile now. Why won't you answer the question? What's up with that?
" Israel here is anything I say it is , Just like ' all , world ect . Literally pick any word and I.ll ignore its normal usage and go to my calvinst dictionary and completely flip the meaning on its head " You say world , but for me I have a special way of changing that word to mean ' the elect ' ' " oh yes any distinction you make is futile, because its not been given to you , I have eyes to see and ears to hear that really it means ' the elect ' .
1 John 2:2
“And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”
When you change this simple and obvious reading into " this REALLY means the ' world of the elect ' . Literally God cannot communicate ' 'world ' and ' all ' to us to literally mean just that .
“And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”
When you change this simple and obvious reading into " this REALLY means the ' world of the elect ' . Literally God cannot communicate ' 'world ' and ' all ' to us to literally mean just that .