Proof of a Future Millennial Kingdom
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too many gaps?
this i do not get.
what gaps? it's dispensationalism that puts gaps in everywhere.
~
First Advent>>.........salvation: MESSIANIC AGE...................>>Second Advent & Eternity.
more involved (using Rev 20):
First Advent>>.....salvation: MESSIANIC AGE.............satan's little season>>Second Advent & Eternity.
uh...pretty sure the Bible says Jesus suddenly appears and everything is okay - for the SHEEP.
doesn't it?
the wicked don't mysteriously disappear do they?
i thought there was a Great White Throne and everybody heard their sentence...and the wicked are taken away and thrown into the lake of fire.
Jesus spoke in parables - He still explained it to His disciples.
He never said anything about a Millennial Reign after The Second Advent.
maybe we need to go to the Messianic Age as it was understood by the prophets (and misunderstood by the Pharisees et al)
this i do not get.
what gaps? it's dispensationalism that puts gaps in everywhere.
~
First Advent>>.........salvation: MESSIANIC AGE...................>>Second Advent & Eternity.
more involved (using Rev 20):
First Advent>>.....salvation: MESSIANIC AGE.............satan's little season>>Second Advent & Eternity.
uh...pretty sure the Bible says Jesus suddenly appears and everything is okay - for the SHEEP.
doesn't it?
the wicked don't mysteriously disappear do they?
i thought there was a Great White Throne and everybody heard their sentence...and the wicked are taken away and thrown into the lake of fire.
Jesus spoke in parables - He still explained it to His disciples.
He never said anything about a Millennial Reign after The Second Advent.
maybe we need to go to the Messianic Age as it was understood by the prophets (and misunderstood by the Pharisees et al)
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??
okay - well, if you're not familiar with it, it's prolly strange at the moment.
hopefully you can lay out one by one what the problems are, but speculation doesn't help us at all.
at least, not until we examine all the texts first.
" a denial response to the fear of impending catastrophic judgment."?
what fear?
don't you believe/know you are saved?
what can man do to you?
your body has to die anyways, right? (unless you're alive when He comes, in which case in the twinkling of an eye - you'll be changed)
or do you fear God's wrath on you?
if so, why?
Romans 8:1
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus
if you have been born again by The Spirit (the first resurrection - already seated with Christ), will He not deliver you Home?
take a look at this and see why it's so foreign to so many people today - since Scofield came along:
~
The Amillennialist affirms that the people of Israel have not been cast off or replaced, but rather, that the Gentiles have now been included among the Jews in God's Covenantal promises. In other words, not replacement but expansion. God's redemptive plan, as first promised to Abraham, was that "all nations" would be blessed through him. Israel is, and always has been, saved the same as any other nation: by the promises to the seed, Christ. Amillennialists, do not believe in a literal 1000 year reign of Christ on earth after His second coming. Rather, they affirm that when Christ returns, the resurrection of both the righteous and wicked will take place simultaneously (see John 5), followed by judgment and and the eternal state where heaven and earth merge and Christ reigns forever.
Strong points of Amillennialism
* It is highly Christocentric: it makes Christ the center of all the biblical covenants (even the “Land” covenant or Siniatic)
* It notes the universal scope of the Abrahamic Covenant (as key) to interpreting the rest of the biblical covenants
* It sees salvation history oriented to a person (Christ), instead of a people (the nation of Israel)
* It emphasizes continuity between the “people of God” (Israel and the Church are one in Christ Eph. 2:11ff)
* It provides an ethic that is rooted in creation, and “re-creation” (continuity between God’s redemptive work now, carried over into the eternal state then)
* It emphasizes a trinitarian view of God as it elevates the “person”, Christ Jesus, the second person of the trinity as the point and mediator of all history
* It flows from a hermeneutic that takes seriously the literary character of the Scriptures (esp. the book of Revelation)
Bobby Grow
- Monergism.com
....
"It sees salvation history oriented to a person (Christ), instead of a people (the nation of Israel)" < isn't this a problem for many today?
why is it?
okay - well, if you're not familiar with it, it's prolly strange at the moment.
hopefully you can lay out one by one what the problems are, but speculation doesn't help us at all.
at least, not until we examine all the texts first.
" a denial response to the fear of impending catastrophic judgment."?
what fear?
don't you believe/know you are saved?
what can man do to you?
your body has to die anyways, right? (unless you're alive when He comes, in which case in the twinkling of an eye - you'll be changed
)or do you fear God's wrath on you?
if so, why?
Romans 8:1
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus
if you have been born again by The Spirit (the first resurrection - already seated with Christ), will He not deliver you Home?
take a look at this and see why it's so foreign to so many people today - since Scofield came along:
~
The Amillennialist affirms that the people of Israel have not been cast off or replaced, but rather, that the Gentiles have now been included among the Jews in God's Covenantal promises. In other words, not replacement but expansion. God's redemptive plan, as first promised to Abraham, was that "all nations" would be blessed through him. Israel is, and always has been, saved the same as any other nation: by the promises to the seed, Christ. Amillennialists, do not believe in a literal 1000 year reign of Christ on earth after His second coming. Rather, they affirm that when Christ returns, the resurrection of both the righteous and wicked will take place simultaneously (see John 5), followed by judgment and and the eternal state where heaven and earth merge and Christ reigns forever.
Strong points of Amillennialism
* It is highly Christocentric: it makes Christ the center of all the biblical covenants (even the “Land” covenant or Siniatic)
* It notes the universal scope of the Abrahamic Covenant (as key) to interpreting the rest of the biblical covenants
* It sees salvation history oriented to a person (Christ), instead of a people (the nation of Israel)
* It emphasizes continuity between the “people of God” (Israel and the Church are one in Christ Eph. 2:11ff)
* It provides an ethic that is rooted in creation, and “re-creation” (continuity between God’s redemptive work now, carried over into the eternal state then)
* It emphasizes a trinitarian view of God as it elevates the “person”, Christ Jesus, the second person of the trinity as the point and mediator of all history
* It flows from a hermeneutic that takes seriously the literary character of the Scriptures (esp. the book of Revelation)
Bobby Grow
- Monergism.com
....
"It sees salvation history oriented to a person (Christ), instead of a people (the nation of Israel)" < isn't this a problem for many today?
why is it?
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Jesus returns and the Judgement takes place, yes.
why is that a logistical problem?
people are saved by faith - and faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.
where, anywhere, are we told that (saved by Grace through faith) will change?
Millennialists have flesh people pouring into earthly Jerusalem (is the curse removed?) and STILL denying Jesus is The LORD.
i do not think so seriously?
if Jesus is here In Person, in His Majestic Glory seated in Old Jerusalem - WHO would EVER not be saved by SIGHT immediately?
Matthew 25
The Parable of the Talents
14“For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servantsc and entrusted to them his property. 15To one he gave five talents,d to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away. 16He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more. 17So also he who had the two talents made two talents more. 18But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master’s money. 19Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. 20And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here I have made five talents more.’ 21His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant.e You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 22And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here I have made two talents more.’ 23His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 24He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed, 25so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.’ 26But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed? 27Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. 28So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. 29For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 30And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
- is this person cast out into darkness during the Millennium?
- can he get saved later? where does he go?
- because Jesus said there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth - that's Judgment Day language.
The Final Judgment
31“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
- do you see the Judgment passages in Matthew as stretching over the 1,000 years?
- you know the rest of it:
41“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
~
if this was after the literal 1,000 year reign, would this make any sense?:
34Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers,f you did it to me.’
and conversely He says to the goats that they did not do those things.
wouldn't Jesus have said it differently (esp to the goats) if He had actually been there in Person for 1,000 years (recall the OT pictures say people will go to Jerusalem every year, right)?:
41“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
why is that a logistical problem?
people are saved by faith - and faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.
where, anywhere, are we told that (saved by Grace through faith) will change?
Millennialists have flesh people pouring into earthly Jerusalem (is the curse removed?) and STILL denying Jesus is The LORD.
i do not think so
seriously?if Jesus is here In Person, in His Majestic Glory seated in Old Jerusalem - WHO would EVER not be saved by SIGHT immediately?
Matthew 25
The Parable of the Talents
14“For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servantsc and entrusted to them his property. 15To one he gave five talents,d to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away. 16He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more. 17So also he who had the two talents made two talents more. 18But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master’s money. 19Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. 20And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here I have made five talents more.’ 21His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant.e You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 22And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here I have made two talents more.’ 23His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 24He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed, 25so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.’ 26But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed? 27Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. 28So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. 29For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 30And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
- is this person cast out into darkness during the Millennium?
- can he get saved later? where does he go?
- because Jesus said there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth - that's Judgment Day language.
The Final Judgment
31“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
- do you see the Judgment passages in Matthew as stretching over the 1,000 years?
- you know the rest of it:
41“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
~
if this was after the literal 1,000 year reign, would this make any sense?:
34Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers,f you did it to me.’
and conversely He says to the goats that they did not do those things.
wouldn't Jesus have said it differently (esp to the goats) if He had actually been there in Person for 1,000 years (recall the OT pictures say people will go to Jerusalem every year, right)?:
41“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
how come though?
if you agree with these:
* It is highly Christocentric: it makes Christ the center of all the biblical covenants (even the “Land” covenant or Siniatic)
* It notes the universal scope of the Abrahamic Covenant (as key) to interpreting the rest of the biblical covenants
then what remains to happen during the future 1,000 years?
if it isn't Dispensationalism's Plan B removal of the church in the rapture, the God returning to Plan A - the Jews just before and at the Second Advent (variant views on who is 'pre-emminent' reigning with Christ - gentiles or jews)...then what is it for?
i know you said to bring in righteousness...but we already saw that isn't the case in the 1,000 years because of the great war against Jesus and the saints.
you said to restore the earth and man's dominion....but that isn't the case either, since there's still a curse - people die and fight wars and stuff....presumably polluting the earth with DU or whatever they have.
so, if it is to restore man's dominion....don't all the men have to be righteous and glorified?
because man can not go back to what Adam had while there is sin and whatnot.....and what about the tree of life - the trees for the healing of the nations?
they're not said to be in the Millennium...are they?
where does the bible say God's purpose is just to restore man's dominion on this earth?
or even at all? it might, but i missed it.
i read it says His Purpose is salvation of men to THE PRAISE OF HIS GLORY.
Jesus is the one who has all dominion.
Jude 1:25
25to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen
and anyways....as subjects of his Kingdom (which is not of this world) now, we also have been transferred INTO His Kingdom, where sin (and satan) DO NOT have dominion over us...this is Kingdom language.
Romans 6:14
For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.
we're not under satan's dominion anymore.
he might still savage us, but he doesn't rule us and neither do we follow him (as prince) anymore.
the kingdom is underway right now.
it doesn't look like the Jews wanted it to - political and military and all that.
maybe that's why the unbelievers missed the Messianic Age...and are still looking for it, for the same wrong reasons - God is LOVE....His Kingdom is not killing and war, it's salvation and peace - right now
John 14:24
Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
John 16:33
"I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world."
John 20:19
On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jewish leaders, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!"
Philippians 4:7
And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.
Colossians 3:15
Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful.
if you agree with these:
* It is highly Christocentric: it makes Christ the center of all the biblical covenants (even the “Land” covenant or Siniatic)
* It notes the universal scope of the Abrahamic Covenant (as key) to interpreting the rest of the biblical covenants
then what remains to happen during the future 1,000 years?
if it isn't Dispensationalism's Plan B removal of the church in the rapture, the God returning to Plan A - the Jews just before and at the Second Advent (variant views on who is 'pre-emminent' reigning with Christ - gentiles or jews)...then what is it for?
i know you said to bring in righteousness...but we already saw that isn't the case in the 1,000 years because of the great war against Jesus and the saints.
you said to restore the earth and man's dominion....but that isn't the case either, since there's still a curse - people die and fight wars and stuff....presumably polluting the earth with DU or whatever they have.
so, if it is to restore man's dominion....don't all the men have to be righteous and glorified?
because man can not go back to what Adam had while there is sin and whatnot.....and what about the tree of life - the trees for the healing of the nations?
they're not said to be in the Millennium...are they?
where does the bible say God's purpose is just to restore man's dominion on this earth?
or even at all? it might, but i missed it.
i read it says His Purpose is salvation of men to THE PRAISE OF HIS GLORY.
Jesus is the one who has all dominion.
Jude 1:25
25to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen
and anyways....as subjects of his Kingdom (which is not of this world) now, we also have been transferred INTO His Kingdom, where sin (and satan) DO NOT have dominion over us...this is Kingdom language.
Romans 6:14
For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.
we're not under satan's dominion anymore.
he might still savage us, but he doesn't rule us and neither do we follow him (as prince) anymore.
the kingdom is underway right now.
it doesn't look like the Jews wanted it to - political and military and all that.
maybe that's why the unbelievers missed the Messianic Age...and are still looking for it, for the same wrong reasons - God is LOVE....His Kingdom is not killing and war, it's salvation and peace - right now
John 14:24
Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
John 16:33
"I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world."
John 20:19
On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jewish leaders, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!"
Philippians 4:7
And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.
Colossians 3:15
Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful.
take from it what you will, all; some or none
.....
Why the Early Church Finally Rejected Premillennialism
By Charles E. Hill
Modern Reformation, Jan/Feb 1996, p. 16
Why the Early Church Finally Rejected Premillennialism < click
.....
note - this clearly doesn't represent the views of all branches of Judaism, but the core message is: Messiah has not come yet.
• The idea of mashiach (messiah) is an ancient one in Judaism
• The Jewish idea of mashiach is a great human leader like King David, not a savior
• There is much speculation about when the mashiach will come
• The Bible identifies several tasks that the mashiach will accomplish
• Jews do not believe in Jesus because he did not accomplish these tasks
Mashiach: The Messiah
"However, traditional Judaism maintains that the messianic idea has always been a part of Judaism. The mashiach is not mentioned explicitly in the Torah, because the Torah was written in terms that all people could understand, and the abstract concept of a distant, spiritual, future reward was beyond the comprehension of some people. However, the Torah contains several references to "the End of Days" (acharit ha-yamim), which is the time of the mashiach; thus, the concept of mashiach was known in the most ancient times.
The term "mashiach" literally means "the anointed one," and refers to the ancient practice of anointing kings with oil when they took the throne. The mashiach is the one who will be anointed as king in the End of Days.
The mashiach will be a great political leader descended from King David (Jeremiah 23:5). The mashiach is often referred to as "mashiach ben David" (mashiach, son of David). He will be well-versed in Jewish law, and observant of its commandments (Isaiah 11:2-5). He will be a charismatic leader, inspiring others to follow his example. He will be a great military leader, who will win battles for Israel. He will be a great judge, who makes righteous decisions (Jeremiah 33:15). But above all, he will be a human being, not a god, demi-god or other supernatural being.
When Will the Mashiach Come?
There are a wide variety of opinions on the subject of when the mashiach will come. Some of Judaism's greatest minds have cursed those who try to predict the time of the mashiach's coming, because errors in such predictions could cause people to lose faith in the messianic idea or in Judaism itself. This actually happened in the 17th century, when Shabbatai Tzvi claimed to be the mashiach. When Tzvi converted to Islam under threat of death, many Jews converted with him. Nevertheless, this prohibition has not stopped anyone from speculating about the time when the mashiach will come.
Although some scholars believed that G-d has set aside a specific date for the coming of the mashiach, most authority suggests that the conduct of mankind will determine the time of the mashiach's coming.
What Will the Mashiach Do?
Before the time of the mashiach, there shall be war and suffering (Ezekiel 38:16)
The mashiach will bring about the political and spiritual redemption of the Jewish people by bringing us back to Israel and restoring Jerusalem (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). He will establish a government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and gentiles (Isaiah 2:2-4; 11:10; 42:1). He will rebuild the Temple and re-establish its worship (Jeremiah 33:18). He will restore the religious court system of Israel and establish Jewish law as the law of the land (Jeremiah 33:15).
Judaism 101: Mashiach: The Messiah < click
cont.....
.....
Why the Early Church Finally Rejected Premillennialism
By Charles E. Hill
Modern Reformation, Jan/Feb 1996, p. 16
Why the Early Church Finally Rejected Premillennialism < click
.....
note - this clearly doesn't represent the views of all branches of Judaism, but the core message is: Messiah has not come yet.
• The idea of mashiach (messiah) is an ancient one in Judaism
• The Jewish idea of mashiach is a great human leader like King David, not a savior
• There is much speculation about when the mashiach will come
• The Bible identifies several tasks that the mashiach will accomplish
• Jews do not believe in Jesus because he did not accomplish these tasks
Mashiach: The Messiah
"However, traditional Judaism maintains that the messianic idea has always been a part of Judaism. The mashiach is not mentioned explicitly in the Torah, because the Torah was written in terms that all people could understand, and the abstract concept of a distant, spiritual, future reward was beyond the comprehension of some people. However, the Torah contains several references to "the End of Days" (acharit ha-yamim), which is the time of the mashiach; thus, the concept of mashiach was known in the most ancient times.
The term "mashiach" literally means "the anointed one," and refers to the ancient practice of anointing kings with oil when they took the throne. The mashiach is the one who will be anointed as king in the End of Days.
The mashiach will be a great political leader descended from King David (Jeremiah 23:5). The mashiach is often referred to as "mashiach ben David" (mashiach, son of David). He will be well-versed in Jewish law, and observant of its commandments (Isaiah 11:2-5). He will be a charismatic leader, inspiring others to follow his example. He will be a great military leader, who will win battles for Israel. He will be a great judge, who makes righteous decisions (Jeremiah 33:15). But above all, he will be a human being, not a god, demi-god or other supernatural being.
When Will the Mashiach Come?
There are a wide variety of opinions on the subject of when the mashiach will come. Some of Judaism's greatest minds have cursed those who try to predict the time of the mashiach's coming, because errors in such predictions could cause people to lose faith in the messianic idea or in Judaism itself. This actually happened in the 17th century, when Shabbatai Tzvi claimed to be the mashiach. When Tzvi converted to Islam under threat of death, many Jews converted with him. Nevertheless, this prohibition has not stopped anyone from speculating about the time when the mashiach will come.
Although some scholars believed that G-d has set aside a specific date for the coming of the mashiach, most authority suggests that the conduct of mankind will determine the time of the mashiach's coming.
What Will the Mashiach Do?
Before the time of the mashiach, there shall be war and suffering (Ezekiel 38:16)
The mashiach will bring about the political and spiritual redemption of the Jewish people by bringing us back to Israel and restoring Jerusalem (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). He will establish a government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and gentiles (Isaiah 2:2-4; 11:10; 42:1). He will rebuild the Temple and re-establish its worship (Jeremiah 33:18). He will restore the religious court system of Israel and establish Jewish law as the law of the land (Jeremiah 33:15).
Judaism 101: Mashiach: The Messiah < click
cont.....
Olam Ha-Ba: The Messianic Age
The world after the messiah comes is often referred to in Jewish literature as Olam Ha-Ba (oh-LAHM hah-BAH), the World to Come. This term can cause some confusion, because it is also used to refer to a spiritual afterlife. In English, we commonly use the term "messianic age" to refer specifically to the time of the messiah.
Olam Ha-Ba will be characterized by the peaceful co-existence of all people (Isaiah 2:4). Hatred, intolerance and war will cease to exist. Some authorities suggest that the laws of nature will change, so that predatory beasts will no longer seek prey and agriculture will bring forth supernatural abundance (Isaiah 11:6-11:9). Others, however, say that these statements are merely an allegory for peace and prosperity.
All of the Jewish people will return from their exile among the nations to their home in Israel (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). The law of the Jubilee will be reinstated.
What About Jesus?
Jews do not believe that Jesus was the mashiach. Assuming that he existed, and assuming that the Christian scriptures are accurate in describing him (both matters that are debatable), he simply did not fulfill the mission of the mashiach as it is described in the biblical passages cited above. Jesus did not do any of the things that the scriptures said the messiah would do.
On the contrary, another Jew born about a century later came far closer to fulfilling the messianic ideal than Jesus did. His name was Shimeon ben Kosiba, known as Bar Kokhba (son of a star), and he was a charismatic, brilliant, but brutal warlord. Rabbi Akiba, one of the greatest scholars in Jewish history, believed that Bar Kokhba was the mashiach. Bar Kokhba fought a war against the Roman Empire, catching the Tenth Legion by surprise and retaking Jerusalem. He resumed sacrifices at the site of the Temple and made plans to rebuild the Temple. He established a provisional government and began to issue coins in its name. This is what the Jewish people were looking for in a mashiach; Jesus clearly does not fit into this mold. Ultimately, however, the Roman Empire crushed his revolt and killed Bar Kokhba. After his death, all acknowledged that he was not the mashiach.
Biblical Passages Referring to the Mashiach
The following passages in the Jewish scriptures are the ones that Jews consider to be messianic in nature or relating to the end of days. These are the ones that we rely upon in developing our messianic concept:
Isaiah 2, 11, 42; 59:20
Jeremiah 23, 30, 33; 48:47; 49:39
Ezekiel 38:16
Hosea 3:4-3:5
Micah 4
Zephaniah 3:9
Zechariah 14:9
Daniel 10:14
If you want to know how Jews interpret the passages that Christians consider to be messianic, see the FAQ on the Jews for Judaism website (a counter-missionary organization not associated with this website).
Judaism 101: Mashiach: The Messiah
so all that is posted just to show that Jews misunderstood and still do, the Messianic Age came with Jesus the First Time.
so, maybe refer back to the OP and see how Theopedia defines Millennium.
The world after the messiah comes is often referred to in Jewish literature as Olam Ha-Ba (oh-LAHM hah-BAH), the World to Come. This term can cause some confusion, because it is also used to refer to a spiritual afterlife. In English, we commonly use the term "messianic age" to refer specifically to the time of the messiah.
Olam Ha-Ba will be characterized by the peaceful co-existence of all people (Isaiah 2:4). Hatred, intolerance and war will cease to exist. Some authorities suggest that the laws of nature will change, so that predatory beasts will no longer seek prey and agriculture will bring forth supernatural abundance (Isaiah 11:6-11:9). Others, however, say that these statements are merely an allegory for peace and prosperity.
All of the Jewish people will return from their exile among the nations to their home in Israel (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). The law of the Jubilee will be reinstated.
What About Jesus?
Jews do not believe that Jesus was the mashiach. Assuming that he existed, and assuming that the Christian scriptures are accurate in describing him (both matters that are debatable), he simply did not fulfill the mission of the mashiach as it is described in the biblical passages cited above. Jesus did not do any of the things that the scriptures said the messiah would do.
On the contrary, another Jew born about a century later came far closer to fulfilling the messianic ideal than Jesus did. His name was Shimeon ben Kosiba, known as Bar Kokhba (son of a star), and he was a charismatic, brilliant, but brutal warlord. Rabbi Akiba, one of the greatest scholars in Jewish history, believed that Bar Kokhba was the mashiach. Bar Kokhba fought a war against the Roman Empire, catching the Tenth Legion by surprise and retaking Jerusalem. He resumed sacrifices at the site of the Temple and made plans to rebuild the Temple. He established a provisional government and began to issue coins in its name. This is what the Jewish people were looking for in a mashiach; Jesus clearly does not fit into this mold. Ultimately, however, the Roman Empire crushed his revolt and killed Bar Kokhba. After his death, all acknowledged that he was not the mashiach.
Biblical Passages Referring to the Mashiach
The following passages in the Jewish scriptures are the ones that Jews consider to be messianic in nature or relating to the end of days. These are the ones that we rely upon in developing our messianic concept:
Isaiah 2, 11, 42; 59:20
Jeremiah 23, 30, 33; 48:47; 49:39
Ezekiel 38:16
Hosea 3:4-3:5
Micah 4
Zephaniah 3:9
Zechariah 14:9
Daniel 10:14
If you want to know how Jews interpret the passages that Christians consider to be messianic, see the FAQ on the Jews for Judaism website (a counter-missionary organization not associated with this website).
Judaism 101: Mashiach: The Messiah
so all that is posted just to show that Jews misunderstood and still do, the Messianic Age came with Jesus the First Time.
so, maybe refer back to the OP and see how Theopedia defines Millennium.
Amil was not the view held by the early church fathers - The Millennial Voice of the Early Church Fathers
D
This is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Nothing in this tells us whether or not Chilioi literally means 1000 every time it used. It does appear you are grabbing at any straw you can to defend your doctrine instead of searching for the truth.
Modern Greek is not the same as Koine Greek. Considering Kooine Greek evolved into mideviel Greek and then into modern Greek I must ask do you have a time machine so we can travel back in time to ask someone whose native language is Koine Greek what it means? If not then we don’t really have much choice but to accept what the linguistics experts tell us it means.
So now we have the truth you pick and choose which verses to believe based on your doctrine. Isn’t defending the truth more important then defending our doctrines? Are the following verses that state we are presently kings and priests lies or could you be mistaken in your belief?
Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Do you believe the above verses? Do you believe your doctrine and belief trumps the inspired Word of God? If not then how can you say we are not already kings and priests? As for me I do believe that we are already kings and priests because Scripture says we are. If you don’t want to believe the Scriptures that is your choice. God gave us free will to believe or disbeliev the choice is yours.
How is this supposed to negate what John tells us in Rev?.How does this prove that Christ will return for a literal thousand year period and rule the earth? The answer to both question is it doesn’t this is just more of you grabbing at straws to defend a false doctrine rather then admitting you could be in error
1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Eze 48:35 It was round about eighteen thousand measures: and the name of the city from that day shall be, The LORD is there.
These verses are in reference to the eternal kingdom of God not the millenial reign of Christ which ends at the last trump, when sin has been defeated and when Christ “shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father” An understanding of what occurs at the last trump (as it is called in 1Cor15:52 or 7[SUP]th[/SUP] trump as it is called in Rev) positively eliminates any possibility of the pretrib and/or the premill view of being correct.
So you have bought into another of satans deceptions.
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
The above 4 verses are the only 4 verses in Scripture to use the term antichrist or antichrists. Would you care to show me which of those verses speak of this boogeyman antichrist you are referring to? As we can all see there have been literally billions of antichrists past, present, and future and they have been with us since John wrote those verses. Satan’s ploy with this lie has been quite effective taking the focus of the average Christian off the literlly billion+ antichrists (atheists, muslims etc… and the list goes on an on) in todays world alone and instead has them focusing on some ficticous boogeyman that will supposedly rule the world.
Maybe a little more research is in order. All futurist doctrine (regardless of pre, mid or post trib) are derivatives of the 17[SUP]th[/SUP] century antireformation writings of a Jesuit priest whose name was Ribera. Simply put all futurists doctrines (wheteher pre, mid or post trib) are nothing more then a Scripturally bankrupt ploy designed to hide the truth.
May God bless your studies!
Modern Greek is not the same as Koine Greek. Considering Kooine Greek evolved into mideviel Greek and then into modern Greek I must ask do you have a time machine so we can travel back in time to ask someone whose native language is Koine Greek what it means? If not then we don’t really have much choice but to accept what the linguistics experts tell us it means.
So now we have the truth you pick and choose which verses to believe based on your doctrine. Isn’t defending the truth more important then defending our doctrines? Are the following verses that state we are presently kings and priests lies or could you be mistaken in your belief?
Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Do you believe the above verses? Do you believe your doctrine and belief trumps the inspired Word of God? If not then how can you say we are not already kings and priests? As for me I do believe that we are already kings and priests because Scripture says we are. If you don’t want to believe the Scriptures that is your choice. God gave us free will to believe or disbeliev the choice is yours.
How is this supposed to negate what John tells us in Rev?.How does this prove that Christ will return for a literal thousand year period and rule the earth? The answer to both question is it doesn’t this is just more of you grabbing at straws to defend a false doctrine rather then admitting you could be in error
1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Eze 48:35 It was round about eighteen thousand measures: and the name of the city from that day shall be, The LORD is there.
These verses are in reference to the eternal kingdom of God not the millenial reign of Christ which ends at the last trump, when sin has been defeated and when Christ “shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father” An understanding of what occurs at the last trump (as it is called in 1Cor15:52 or 7[SUP]th[/SUP] trump as it is called in Rev) positively eliminates any possibility of the pretrib and/or the premill view of being correct.
So you have bought into another of satans deceptions.
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
The above 4 verses are the only 4 verses in Scripture to use the term antichrist or antichrists. Would you care to show me which of those verses speak of this boogeyman antichrist you are referring to? As we can all see there have been literally billions of antichrists past, present, and future and they have been with us since John wrote those verses. Satan’s ploy with this lie has been quite effective taking the focus of the average Christian off the literlly billion+ antichrists (atheists, muslims etc… and the list goes on an on) in todays world alone and instead has them focusing on some ficticous boogeyman that will supposedly rule the world.
Maybe a little more research is in order. All futurist doctrine (regardless of pre, mid or post trib) are derivatives of the 17[SUP]th[/SUP] century antireformation writings of a Jesuit priest whose name was Ribera. Simply put all futurists doctrines (wheteher pre, mid or post trib) are nothing more then a Scripturally bankrupt ploy designed to hide the truth.
May God bless your studies!
D
So lets look at those verses.
Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand G5507 chilioi) two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand G5507 chilioi) two hundred and threescore days.
In the above two verses the term chilioi translated as thousand is used in conjunction with other numbers making it a definite number in those cases. In the following verses it is not used in conjuction with other numbers so it is our responsibility to determine if it is used figuratively or literally.
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand (G5507 chilioi) years, and a thousand years as one day.
When we look at the above verse there is nothing in the verse or the surrounding verses that can provides us with a reason to believe this is figurative language.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand (G5507 chilioi) years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand (G5507 chilioi) years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand (G5507 chilioi) years.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand (G5507 chilioi) years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
To quote a friend of mine “Figurative language must be interpreted figuratively. Only a small portion of the Bible is figurative, but interpreting figurative passages figuratively is of major importance to us because every end-time prophecy in the Bible is figurative in nature. Revelation is a prophetic vision and as such it is primarily figurative, but since part of the 20[SUP]th[/SUP] Chapter of Revelation appears to be literal, in 1640 a Dutch Reformed theologian, Jean de Labadie, concluded that Jesus would return to rule over the earthly kingdoms of men for 1000 years at the end of the Christian Era. This "millennium," as it is called, would then be followed by a second Armageddon (Rev 20:8), after which would come the great white throne of judgment. Jean de Labadie's premillennial theory fit perfectly with the Lacunza, Darby, Macdonald, Scofield eschatological scheme of things, so the futurists added premillennialism to their body of doctrine. However, the Reformers of de Labadie's day were not so easily fooled. They saw de Labadie’s view as erroneous and excommunicated him from the Dutch Reform Church. Here is why: The only support in the whole Bible for a pre-millennial view is Revelation 2:20 and it only works there if we interpret Revelation 2:20 literally in a book most serious eschatologists understand to be figurative. Even to arrive at his view, de Labadie had to ignore two universally accepted rules of Bible interpretation:
Reason #1. No scripture should be interpreted apart from its context. As already stated, most of Revelation is figurative and there is no textual reason to interpret chapter 20 differently than its context.
Reason #2. The Greek word for 1000 is "chilias." The Greek word translated thousand in Rev 20 is "chilioi", an indefinite plural. As an indefinite plural, "chilioi" could mean one thousand, but it could also mean many thousands. Point being: it appears the premillennials are basing a definite end-time doctrine on an indefinite plural. Even though the translation of chilioi as "a thousand" is not incorrect, if we insist on it meaning just one thousand, the intended sense of the passage could be lost.”
Chilioi is a plural of uncertain affinity it could be a thousand or thousands. So let’s have a look at some other verses that demonstrate timing and see if they help us determine if the kingdom is present or future.
1Co 15:20-26 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
So when does this occur?
1Co 15:51-54 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Notice that Paul used the term we, which includes himself so this must occur at the same time as the following verses because in them Paul also includes himself when he uses the term we.
1Th 4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
So we have established the fact that the millenial reign ends at the last trump and at that time we are in the eternal kingdom of God. So is this the 7[SUP]th[/SUP] trump of Revelation? Sure it is and here is how we know this.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
As we can see from Rev11:15 at the 7[SUP]th[/SUP] trump of Rev we are in the eternal kingdom of God not the millenial reign. Rev10:6-7 further establishes that fact.
Rev 10:6-7 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Rev10:6-7 tells us the mystery of God is finished and time is no longer when the 7[SUP]th[/SUP] trump sounds. If the mystery of God is finished then the millenium must take prior to the last trump. If there is time no longer at the seventh trump then how can there be a thousand year reign? Can you show me where in Scripture Christ returns prior to the last trump at which point He delivers the kingdom to His Father?
I addressed the points you have raised maybe you would be kind enough to answer a few questions for me.
Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
The above verses show that we have been made kings. If we are not presently in the millenial kingdom and have no kingdom what have we been made kings of?
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
How is it that we have already been translated into the kingdom of His dear Son if that kingdom is future?
Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Was John lying when he said he was “the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ” while on the isle of Patmos? How could he be in Christ’s kingdom if it was future?
Joh_18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Why don’t you believe Jesus when He said His kingdom is not of this world?
Can you show me the verse that says while Christ is reigning He is on earth instead of seated at His Fathers right hand?
Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand G5507 chilioi) two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand G5507 chilioi) two hundred and threescore days.
In the above two verses the term chilioi translated as thousand is used in conjunction with other numbers making it a definite number in those cases. In the following verses it is not used in conjuction with other numbers so it is our responsibility to determine if it is used figuratively or literally.
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand (G5507 chilioi) years, and a thousand years as one day.
When we look at the above verse there is nothing in the verse or the surrounding verses that can provides us with a reason to believe this is figurative language.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand (G5507 chilioi) years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand (G5507 chilioi) years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand (G5507 chilioi) years.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand (G5507 chilioi) years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
To quote a friend of mine “Figurative language must be interpreted figuratively. Only a small portion of the Bible is figurative, but interpreting figurative passages figuratively is of major importance to us because every end-time prophecy in the Bible is figurative in nature. Revelation is a prophetic vision and as such it is primarily figurative, but since part of the 20[SUP]th[/SUP] Chapter of Revelation appears to be literal, in 1640 a Dutch Reformed theologian, Jean de Labadie, concluded that Jesus would return to rule over the earthly kingdoms of men for 1000 years at the end of the Christian Era. This "millennium," as it is called, would then be followed by a second Armageddon (Rev 20:8), after which would come the great white throne of judgment. Jean de Labadie's premillennial theory fit perfectly with the Lacunza, Darby, Macdonald, Scofield eschatological scheme of things, so the futurists added premillennialism to their body of doctrine. However, the Reformers of de Labadie's day were not so easily fooled. They saw de Labadie’s view as erroneous and excommunicated him from the Dutch Reform Church. Here is why: The only support in the whole Bible for a pre-millennial view is Revelation 2:20 and it only works there if we interpret Revelation 2:20 literally in a book most serious eschatologists understand to be figurative. Even to arrive at his view, de Labadie had to ignore two universally accepted rules of Bible interpretation:
Reason #1. No scripture should be interpreted apart from its context. As already stated, most of Revelation is figurative and there is no textual reason to interpret chapter 20 differently than its context.
Reason #2. The Greek word for 1000 is "chilias." The Greek word translated thousand in Rev 20 is "chilioi", an indefinite plural. As an indefinite plural, "chilioi" could mean one thousand, but it could also mean many thousands. Point being: it appears the premillennials are basing a definite end-time doctrine on an indefinite plural. Even though the translation of chilioi as "a thousand" is not incorrect, if we insist on it meaning just one thousand, the intended sense of the passage could be lost.”
Chilioi is a plural of uncertain affinity it could be a thousand or thousands. So let’s have a look at some other verses that demonstrate timing and see if they help us determine if the kingdom is present or future.
1Co 15:20-26 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
So when does this occur?
1Co 15:51-54 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Notice that Paul used the term we, which includes himself so this must occur at the same time as the following verses because in them Paul also includes himself when he uses the term we.
1Th 4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
So we have established the fact that the millenial reign ends at the last trump and at that time we are in the eternal kingdom of God. So is this the 7[SUP]th[/SUP] trump of Revelation? Sure it is and here is how we know this.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
As we can see from Rev11:15 at the 7[SUP]th[/SUP] trump of Rev we are in the eternal kingdom of God not the millenial reign. Rev10:6-7 further establishes that fact.
Rev 10:6-7 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Rev10:6-7 tells us the mystery of God is finished and time is no longer when the 7[SUP]th[/SUP] trump sounds. If the mystery of God is finished then the millenium must take prior to the last trump. If there is time no longer at the seventh trump then how can there be a thousand year reign? Can you show me where in Scripture Christ returns prior to the last trump at which point He delivers the kingdom to His Father?
I addressed the points you have raised maybe you would be kind enough to answer a few questions for me.
Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
The above verses show that we have been made kings. If we are not presently in the millenial kingdom and have no kingdom what have we been made kings of?
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
How is it that we have already been translated into the kingdom of His dear Son if that kingdom is future?
Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Was John lying when he said he was “the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ” while on the isle of Patmos? How could he be in Christ’s kingdom if it was future?
Joh_18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Why don’t you believe Jesus when He said His kingdom is not of this world?
Can you show me the verse that says while Christ is reigning He is on earth instead of seated at His Fathers right hand?
just fascinating that the OT scholars still do not recognize that the Kingdom came when the King came.
Luke 11
Jesus and Beelzebul
14Now he was casting out a demon that was mute. When the demon had gone out, the mute man spoke, and the people marveled. 15But some of them said, “He casts out demons by Beelzebul, the prince of demons,” 16while others, to test him, kept seeking from him a sign from heaven. 17But he, knowing their thoughts, said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and a divided household falls. 18And if Satan also is divided against himself, how will his kingdom stand? For you say that I cast out demons by Beelzebul. 19And if I cast out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they will be your judges. 20 But if it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. 21When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe; 22but when one stronger than he attacks him and overcomes him, he takes away his armor in which he trusted and divides his spoil. 23Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.
Luke 11
Jesus and Beelzebul
14Now he was casting out a demon that was mute. When the demon had gone out, the mute man spoke, and the people marveled. 15But some of them said, “He casts out demons by Beelzebul, the prince of demons,” 16while others, to test him, kept seeking from him a sign from heaven. 17But he, knowing their thoughts, said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and a divided household falls. 18And if Satan also is divided against himself, how will his kingdom stand? For you say that I cast out demons by Beelzebul. 19And if I cast out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they will be your judges. 20 But if it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. 21When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe; 22but when one stronger than he attacks him and overcomes him, he takes away his armor in which he trusted and divides his spoil. 23Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.
flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of Yahweh
You can look for the kingdom among men, I will not
Yahshua said the because HE was there, Yahshua is not currently on earth, the kingdom of Yahweh is not on earth now.
So tell me this, when the anti-Messiah sets up satan's kingdom on earth will it co-exist with the kingdom (of Yahweh) you say is on earth now?
"But how are we to view the Church's earliest period up until the first decisive rejection of chiliasm in the Church? By most accounts this was the heyday of chiliastic belief in the Church. Many modern apologists for premillennialism allege that before the time of Augustine chiliasm was the dominant, if not the "universal" eschatology of the Church, preserving the faith of the apostles.2 Some form of chiliasm was certainly defended by such notable names as Justin Martyr and Irenaeus of Lyons in the second century and Tertullian of Carthage in the third. How and why then did this view finally fall into disrepute?
The answer given by modern premillennial apologists usually suggests that premillennialism was overcome for illegitimate reasons. They cite the rise of an unbiblical and dangerous allegorical hermeneutic (by such as Clement of Alexandria and Origen) which took a sad toll on sound biblical exegesis. They explain that the prophetic excesses of the Montanists gave chiliasm a bad name. They note that the peace of Constantine led the Church to the false belief that the millennium had already arrived. And, finally, they suggest that the authoritative repudiation of chiliasm by Augustine, who formerly had held such a belief, "put the nails in the coffin" of premillennialism.
But are these the real factors?..."
Why the Early Church Finally Rejected Premillennialism < click
The answer given by modern premillennial apologists usually suggests that premillennialism was overcome for illegitimate reasons. They cite the rise of an unbiblical and dangerous allegorical hermeneutic (by such as Clement of Alexandria and Origen) which took a sad toll on sound biblical exegesis. They explain that the prophetic excesses of the Montanists gave chiliasm a bad name. They note that the peace of Constantine led the Church to the false belief that the millennium had already arrived. And, finally, they suggest that the authoritative repudiation of chiliasm by Augustine, who formerly had held such a belief, "put the nails in the coffin" of premillennialism.
But are these the real factors?..."
Why the Early Church Finally Rejected Premillennialism < click