Is the false teaching of pre-tribulation rapture, getting the power of "him" out of the way, who restrains the antichrist?
- Thread starter BenjaminN
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Matthew 24:29-31 [AFTER/AT END of trib] corresponds to the following passage:
Isaiah 27:12-13 -
12 In that day the LORD will thresh from the flowing Euphrates to the Wadi of Egypt, and you, O Israelites, will be gathered one by one. [not "AS ONE" as *WE* will be, in the Rapture
] 13 And in that day a GREAT trumpet will sound, and those who were perishing in Assyria will come forth with those who were exiles in Egypt. And they will worship the LORD on the holy mountain in Jerusalem.
[note (in these two passages): WHO and TO WHERE and gathered BY WHOM and IN WHAT MANNER and to what PURPOSE... Everything entirely DISTINCT from that of "our Rapture" event ]
... they will be gathered "from the extremities," where scattered... (nowhere excluded)
[this is not speaking of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" and "our Rapture"... the Olivet Discourse is not covering THAT Subject]
Isaiah 27:12-13 -
12 In that day the LORD will thresh from the flowing Euphrates to the Wadi of Egypt, and you, O Israelites, will be gathered one by one. [not "AS ONE" as *WE* will be, in the Rapture
] 13 And in that day a GREAT trumpet will sound, and those who were perishing in Assyria will come forth with those who were exiles in Egypt. And they will worship the LORD on the holy mountain in Jerusalem.[note (in these two passages): WHO and TO WHERE and gathered BY WHOM and IN WHAT MANNER and to what PURPOSE... Everything entirely DISTINCT from that of "our Rapture" event
]... they will be gathered "from the extremities," where scattered... (nowhere excluded)
[this is not speaking of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" and "our Rapture"... the Olivet Discourse is not covering THAT Subject]
I think I wrote my reply to you on the wrong post, screen is continually jumping up and down. I started to write that scripture from Matthew chpt. 24 and there. The angels are following Jesus orders, Jesus is the commander and chief, they are carrying out his commamd, which makes him the one initiating it, therefore he is the one doing. Is there a play on words?
MARGARET'S REVELATION
"It was first the awful state of the land that was pressed upon me. I saw the blindness and infatuation of the people to be very great. I felt the cry of Liberty just to be the hiss of the serpent, to drown them in perdition. It was just 'no God.'
I repeated the words, Now there is distress of nations, with perplexity, the seas and the waves roaring, men's hearts failing them for fear. Now look out for the sign of the Son of Man. Here I was made to stop and cry out, O it is not known what the sign of the Son of Man is; the people of God think they are waiting, but they know not what it is.
I felt this needed to be revealed, and that there was great darkness and error about it; but suddenly what it was burst upon me with a glorious light. I saw it was just the Lord himself descending from Heaven with a shout, just the glorified man, even Jesus; but that all must, as Stephen was, be filled with the Holy Ghost, that they might look up, and see the brightness of the Father's glory.
I saw the error to be, that men think that it will be something seen by the natural eye; but 'tis spiritual discernment that is needed, the eye of God in his people.
Many passages were revealed, in a light in which I had not before seen them. I repeated, 'Now is the kingdom of Heaven like unto ten virgins, who went forth to meet the Bridegroom, five wise and five foolish; they that were foolish took their lamps, but took no oil with them; but they that were wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.' 'But be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is; and be not drunk with wine wherein is excess, but be filled with the Spirit.' This was the oil the wise virgins took in their vessels - this is the light to be kept burning - the light of God - that we may discern that which cometh not with observation to the natural eye.
Only those who have the light of God within them will see the sign of his appearance. No need to follow them who say, see here, or see there, for his day shall be as the lightning to those in whom the living Christ is. 'Tis Christ in us that will lift us up - he is the light - 'tis only those that are alive in him that will be caught up to meet him in the air.
I saw that we must be in the Spirit, that we might see spiritual things. John was in the Spirit, when he saw a throne set in Heaven. But I saw that the glory of the ministration of the Spirit had not been known. I repeated frequently, but the spiritual temple must and shall be reared, and the fullness of Christ be poured into his body, and then [note: no imminency teaching here!] shall we be caught up to meet him. Oh none will be counted worthy of this calling but his body, which is the church, and which must be a candlestick all of gold.
I often said, Oh the glorious inbreaking of God which is now about to burst on this earth; Oh the glorious temple which is now about to be reared, the bride adorned for her husband; and Oh what a holy, holy bride she must he, to be prepared for such a glorious bridegroom.
I said, Now shall the people of God have to do with realities - now shall the glorious mystery of God in our nature be known - now shall it be known what it is for man to be glorified. I felt that the revelation of Jesus Christ had yet to be opened up - it is not knowledge about God that it contains, but it is an entering into God - I saw that there was a glorious breaking in of God to be.
I felt as Elijah, surrounded with chariots of fire. I saw as it were, the spiritual temple reared, and the Head Stone brought forth with shoutings of grace, grace, unto it. It was a glorious light above the brightness of the sun that shone round about me. I felt that those who were filled with the Spirit could see spiritual things, and feel walking in the midst of them, while those who had not the Spirit could see nothing - so that two shall be in one bed, the one taken and the other left, because the one has the light of God within while the other cannot see the Kingdom of Heaven.
I saw the people of God in an awfully dangerous situation, surrounded by nets and entanglements, about to be tried, and many about to be deceived and fall. Now will THE WICKED be revealed, with all power and signs and lying wonders, so that it it were possible the very elect will be deceived. - This is the fiery trial which is to try us. - It will be for the purging and purifying of the real members of the body of Jesus]; but Oh it will be a fiery trial. Every soul will he shaken to the very centre. The enemy will try to shake in every thing we have believed - but the trial of real faith will be found to honour and praise and glory. Nothing but what is of God will stand. The stony-ground hearers will be made manifest - the love of many will wax cold.
I frequently said that night, and often since, now shall the awful sight of a false Christ be seen on this earth, and nothing but the living Christ in us can detect this awful attempt of the enemy to deceive - for it is with all deceivableness of unrighteousness he will work - he will have a counterpart for every part of God's truth, and an imitation for every work of the Spirit.
The Spirit must and will be poured out on the church, that she may be purified and filled with God - and just in proportion as the Spirit of God works, so will he - when our Lord anoints men with power, so will he. This is particularly the nature of the trial, through which those are to pass who will be counted worthy to stand before the Son of man. There will he outward trial too, but 'tis principally temptation. It is brought on by the outpouring of the Spirit, and will just increase in proportion as the Spirit is poured out.
The trial of the Church is from Antichrist. It is by being filled with the Spirit that we shall be kept.
I frequently said, Oh be filled with the Spirit - have the light of God in you, that you may detect Satan - be full of eyes within -be clay in the hands of the potter -submit to be filled, filled with God. This will build the temple. It is not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit, saith the Lord. This will fit us to enter into the marriage supper of the Lamb.
I saw it to be the will of God that all should be filled. But what hindered the real life of God from being received by his people, was their turning from Jesus, who is the way to the Father. They were not entering in by the door. For he is faithful who hath said, by me if any man enters in he shall find pasture. They were bypassing the cross, through which every drop of the Spirit of God flows to us. All power that comes not through the blood of Christ is not of God.
When I say, they are looking from the cross, I feel that there is much in it - they turn from the blood of the Lamb, by which we overcome, and in which our robes are washed and made white. There are low views of God's holiness, and a ceasing to condemn sin in the flesh, and a looking from him who humbled himself, and made himself of no reputation. Oh! it is needed, much needed at present, a leading back to the cross.
I saw that night, and often since, that there will be an outpouring of the Spirit on the body, such as has not been, a baptism of fire, that all the dross may be put away. Oh there must and will be such an indwelling of the living God as has not been - the servants of God sealed in their foreheads - great conformity to Jesus - his holy holy image seen in his people - just the bride made comely by his comeliness put upon her.
This is what we are at present made to pray much for, that speedily we may all be made ready to meet our Lord in the air - and it will be. Jesus wants his bride. His desire is toward us. He that shall come, will come, and will not tarry.
Amen and Amen Even so come Lord Jesus.''
"It was first the awful state of the land that was pressed upon me. I saw the blindness and infatuation of the people to be very great. I felt the cry of Liberty just to be the hiss of the serpent, to drown them in perdition. It was just 'no God.'
I repeated the words, Now there is distress of nations, with perplexity, the seas and the waves roaring, men's hearts failing them for fear. Now look out for the sign of the Son of Man. Here I was made to stop and cry out, O it is not known what the sign of the Son of Man is; the people of God think they are waiting, but they know not what it is.
I felt this needed to be revealed, and that there was great darkness and error about it; but suddenly what it was burst upon me with a glorious light. I saw it was just the Lord himself descending from Heaven with a shout, just the glorified man, even Jesus; but that all must, as Stephen was, be filled with the Holy Ghost, that they might look up, and see the brightness of the Father's glory.
I saw the error to be, that men think that it will be something seen by the natural eye; but 'tis spiritual discernment that is needed, the eye of God in his people.
Many passages were revealed, in a light in which I had not before seen them. I repeated, 'Now is the kingdom of Heaven like unto ten virgins, who went forth to meet the Bridegroom, five wise and five foolish; they that were foolish took their lamps, but took no oil with them; but they that were wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.' 'But be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is; and be not drunk with wine wherein is excess, but be filled with the Spirit.' This was the oil the wise virgins took in their vessels - this is the light to be kept burning - the light of God - that we may discern that which cometh not with observation to the natural eye.
Only those who have the light of God within them will see the sign of his appearance. No need to follow them who say, see here, or see there, for his day shall be as the lightning to those in whom the living Christ is. 'Tis Christ in us that will lift us up - he is the light - 'tis only those that are alive in him that will be caught up to meet him in the air.
I saw that we must be in the Spirit, that we might see spiritual things. John was in the Spirit, when he saw a throne set in Heaven. But I saw that the glory of the ministration of the Spirit had not been known. I repeated frequently, but the spiritual temple must and shall be reared, and the fullness of Christ be poured into his body, and then [note: no imminency teaching here!] shall we be caught up to meet him. Oh none will be counted worthy of this calling but his body, which is the church, and which must be a candlestick all of gold.
I often said, Oh the glorious inbreaking of God which is now about to burst on this earth; Oh the glorious temple which is now about to be reared, the bride adorned for her husband; and Oh what a holy, holy bride she must he, to be prepared for such a glorious bridegroom.
I said, Now shall the people of God have to do with realities - now shall the glorious mystery of God in our nature be known - now shall it be known what it is for man to be glorified. I felt that the revelation of Jesus Christ had yet to be opened up - it is not knowledge about God that it contains, but it is an entering into God - I saw that there was a glorious breaking in of God to be.
I felt as Elijah, surrounded with chariots of fire. I saw as it were, the spiritual temple reared, and the Head Stone brought forth with shoutings of grace, grace, unto it. It was a glorious light above the brightness of the sun that shone round about me. I felt that those who were filled with the Spirit could see spiritual things, and feel walking in the midst of them, while those who had not the Spirit could see nothing - so that two shall be in one bed, the one taken and the other left, because the one has the light of God within while the other cannot see the Kingdom of Heaven.
I saw the people of God in an awfully dangerous situation, surrounded by nets and entanglements, about to be tried, and many about to be deceived and fall. Now will THE WICKED be revealed, with all power and signs and lying wonders, so that it it were possible the very elect will be deceived. - This is the fiery trial which is to try us. - It will be for the purging and purifying of the real members of the body of Jesus]; but Oh it will be a fiery trial. Every soul will he shaken to the very centre. The enemy will try to shake in every thing we have believed - but the trial of real faith will be found to honour and praise and glory. Nothing but what is of God will stand. The stony-ground hearers will be made manifest - the love of many will wax cold.
I frequently said that night, and often since, now shall the awful sight of a false Christ be seen on this earth, and nothing but the living Christ in us can detect this awful attempt of the enemy to deceive - for it is with all deceivableness of unrighteousness he will work - he will have a counterpart for every part of God's truth, and an imitation for every work of the Spirit.
The Spirit must and will be poured out on the church, that she may be purified and filled with God - and just in proportion as the Spirit of God works, so will he - when our Lord anoints men with power, so will he. This is particularly the nature of the trial, through which those are to pass who will be counted worthy to stand before the Son of man. There will he outward trial too, but 'tis principally temptation. It is brought on by the outpouring of the Spirit, and will just increase in proportion as the Spirit is poured out.
The trial of the Church is from Antichrist. It is by being filled with the Spirit that we shall be kept.
I frequently said, Oh be filled with the Spirit - have the light of God in you, that you may detect Satan - be full of eyes within -be clay in the hands of the potter -submit to be filled, filled with God. This will build the temple. It is not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit, saith the Lord. This will fit us to enter into the marriage supper of the Lamb.
I saw it to be the will of God that all should be filled. But what hindered the real life of God from being received by his people, was their turning from Jesus, who is the way to the Father. They were not entering in by the door. For he is faithful who hath said, by me if any man enters in he shall find pasture. They were bypassing the cross, through which every drop of the Spirit of God flows to us. All power that comes not through the blood of Christ is not of God.
When I say, they are looking from the cross, I feel that there is much in it - they turn from the blood of the Lamb, by which we overcome, and in which our robes are washed and made white. There are low views of God's holiness, and a ceasing to condemn sin in the flesh, and a looking from him who humbled himself, and made himself of no reputation. Oh! it is needed, much needed at present, a leading back to the cross.
I saw that night, and often since, that there will be an outpouring of the Spirit on the body, such as has not been, a baptism of fire, that all the dross may be put away. Oh there must and will be such an indwelling of the living God as has not been - the servants of God sealed in their foreheads - great conformity to Jesus - his holy holy image seen in his people - just the bride made comely by his comeliness put upon her.
This is what we are at present made to pray much for, that speedily we may all be made ready to meet our Lord in the air - and it will be. Jesus wants his bride. His desire is toward us. He that shall come, will come, and will not tarry.
Amen and Amen Even so come Lord Jesus.''
12 In that day the LORD will thresh from the flowing Euphrates to the Wadi of Egypt, and you, O Israelites, will be gathered one by one. [not "AS ONE" as *WE* will be, in the Rapture ] 13 And in that day a GREAT trumpet will sound, and those who were perishing in Assyria will come forth with those who were exiles in Egypt. And they will worship the LORD on the holy mountain in Jerusalem.
[note (in these two passages): WHO and TO WHERE and gathered BY WHOM and IN WHAT MANNER and to what PURPOSE... Everything entirely DISTINCT from that of "our Rapture" event ]
] 13 And in that day a GREAT trumpet will sound, and those who were perishing in Assyria will come forth with those who were exiles in Egypt. And they will worship the LORD on the holy mountain in Jerusalem.[note (in these two passages): WHO and TO WHERE and gathered BY WHOM and IN WHAT MANNER and to what PURPOSE... Everything entirely DISTINCT from that of "our Rapture" event
]
3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. 4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven [/heavenS - PLURAL; some versions say 'horizons'], from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee: 5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
Who's fact - something that somebody wrote concerning their ideas on people that lived in the 19th century. Nowhere in my initial statement, did I use the word absolute or fact - I just gave that information. And that is the information I've gathered - if you disagree with it that's your business - do so - go ahead - but telling me that is fact and all you have is somebody's Theory. LOL
Matthew 24:29-31 [AFTER/AT END of trib] corresponds to the following passage:
Isaiah 27:12-13 -
12 In that day the LORD will thresh from the flowing Euphrates to the Wadi of Egypt, and you, O Israelites, will be gathered one by one. [not "AS ONE" as *WE* will be, in the Rapture ] 13 And in that day a GREAT trumpet will sound, and those who were perishing in Assyria will come forth with those who were exiles in Egypt. And they will worship the LORD on the holy mountain in Jerusalem.
[note (in these two passages): WHO and TO WHERE and gathered BY WHOM and IN WHAT MANNER and to what PURPOSE... Everything entirely DISTINCT from that of "our Rapture" event ]
... they will be gathered "from the extremities," where scattered... (nowhere excluded)
[this is not speaking of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" and "our Rapture"... the Olivet Discourse is not covering THAT Subject]
Isaiah 27:12-13 -
12 In that day the LORD will thresh from the flowing Euphrates to the Wadi of Egypt, and you, O Israelites, will be gathered one by one. [not "AS ONE" as *WE* will be, in the Rapture
] 13 And in that day a GREAT trumpet will sound, and those who were perishing in Assyria will come forth with those who were exiles in Egypt. And they will worship the LORD on the holy mountain in Jerusalem.[note (in these two passages): WHO and TO WHERE and gathered BY WHOM and IN WHAT MANNER and to what PURPOSE... Everything entirely DISTINCT from that of "our Rapture" event
]... they will be gathered "from the extremities," where scattered... (nowhere excluded)
[this is not speaking of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" and "our Rapture"... the Olivet Discourse is not covering THAT Subject]
Are you suggesting that the entire concept of "Rapture / Caught-Up/-Away [G726]" is not to be found in Scripture AT ALL; or are you saying, just a "PRE-trib Rapture" (meaning, concerning the TIMING ISSUE *only*)??
Because the term "rapture" stems from the Latin Vulgate in the 400s -
"17 deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus "
1 Thessalonians 4 - VUL Bible - Bible Study Tools [scroll down to Verse 17 (which verse, btw, is not referencing its TIMING)]
[Of course, the G726 Greek word was already in the writing prior to the 400s ]
Because the term "rapture" stems from the Latin Vulgate in the 400s -
"17 deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus "
1 Thessalonians 4 - VUL Bible - Bible Study Tools [scroll down to Verse 17 (which verse, btw, is not referencing its TIMING)]
[Of course, the G726 Greek word was already in the writing prior to the 400s
]
[QUOTE="Rebelfortruth, postn my initial statement decided not to -the angels does what is commissioned them to do by Jesus - since Jesus is the commander-in-chief - what he tells them to do is carrying out his orders - meaning he's doing it. ][/QUOTE]
In the 10 virgin parable Jesus gathers.
In rev 14 gatheriing of ripe fruit,Jesus gathers, In 1 thes 4 Jesus gathers.
In your mat 24 verse angels ARE SENT TO GATHER(exclusive of Jesus)
In rev 14 at the end, AN ANGEL ,NOT JESUS, GATHERS.
You will never get to end times truth by seeing all end times through a postrib rapture prism.
In the 10 virgin parable Jesus gathers.
In rev 14 gatheriing of ripe fruit,Jesus gathers, In 1 thes 4 Jesus gathers.
In your mat 24 verse angels ARE SENT TO GATHER(exclusive of Jesus)
In rev 14 at the end, AN ANGEL ,NOT JESUS, GATHERS.
You will never get to end times truth by seeing all end times through a postrib rapture prism.
I agree with this! All 4 positions of eschatology are valid interpretations. I personally am Amillennial, and always have been. But that doesn't mean Dispensational pre-mill, pre-trib rapture is not a researched and accepted position. Many Christians believe this, just as many believe historical pre-millennialism is an accepted option for end times belief. Post- Millennial is also valid. But, it is highly discredited because of all the terrible things which happened at the beginning of the 20th century with wars, the depression, and other things which are contrary to the optimism of historical post-mill beliefs. Humanity is not building the millennium, and things are not getting and better till Jesus returns, as post-mill would predict. Although I know there are still scholars believe it.
It is wrong to say any view of the 4 accepted eschatological are false. They have all been thoroughly researched in the Bible, and there are many scholars holding to all 4 views.
It is narrow exclusivity that one group thinking their view is the only right perspective, and the others are without merit. Dispensationalists really started this trend to vilify other valid end times views. I don't know how many times I have been told I am unsaved for being Amillennial. Sorry, eschatology does not affect salvation, ever!! It is a speculative theology at best!
Sadly, here we have someone who is Amill doing the same thing. Saying only his viewpoint is right. I don't even know if I agree with him, because Amill has so many variations. I believe in the literal Second Coming of Jesus Christ. I think that is very clearly stated in the Bible. Yet others go for hidden returns, or other ideas.
The long and short of it is, eschatology is an educated guess. They are all based on the Bible. Some are more literal, others more metaphorical. Revelation is probably among one of the most difficult books of the Bible to understand and interpret, along with Ezekiel.
I think we need to have more respect and compassion for people who have different end times viewpoint than we do! We will sort out who is really right, when Jesus returns!
It is wrong to say any view of the 4 accepted eschatological are false. They have all been thoroughly researched in the Bible, and there are many scholars holding to all 4 views.
It is narrow exclusivity that one group thinking their view is the only right perspective, and the others are without merit. Dispensationalists really started this trend to vilify other valid end times views. I don't know how many times I have been told I am unsaved for being Amillennial. Sorry, eschatology does not affect salvation, ever!! It is a speculative theology at best!
Sadly, here we have someone who is Amill doing the same thing. Saying only his viewpoint is right. I don't even know if I agree with him, because Amill has so many variations. I believe in the literal Second Coming of Jesus Christ. I think that is very clearly stated in the Bible. Yet others go for hidden returns, or other ideas.
The long and short of it is, eschatology is an educated guess. They are all based on the Bible. Some are more literal, others more metaphorical. Revelation is probably among one of the most difficult books of the Bible to understand and interpret, along with Ezekiel.
I think we need to have more respect and compassion for people who have different end times viewpoint than we do! We will sort out who is really right, when Jesus returns!
-
1
- Show all