Is the false teaching of pre-tribulation rapture, getting the power of "him" out of the way, who restrains the antichrist?

[Absolutely]

""ALL DURING the trib years is when the "[Rev19:9] having been INVITED" will have taken place, that is, the INVITATION (of the "guests [plural]") TO the earthly MK age (the weddingFEAST/SUPPER/FESTIVITIES). Those folks never lift off the earth, but are present on the earth upon His "RETURN" there (because this is NOT "rapture-[timing-]related" at all).""

Ok that says everything.

Anytime I see someone go to such lengths to reframe the obvious,they have hit a arena of the impossible.

You NEED it to say what you believe.

You are interpreting verses through your prism.
(It has to be a supper in the mil)
Ok gotcha.

 

[Absolutely]

Listen to everyone on here they all disagree with each other they have fallen for false doctrines and rejected the truth.

Ok you accused all in here of false doctrine.

Show me anything I posted that you disagree with using the bible as your foundation.

 

[presidente]

If 'that wicked' in II Thessalonians 2:8 is the man of sin mentioned in verse 3 (an interpretation I have not seen challenged), then how can the pretrib rapture be possible.

II Thessalonians 2:3 says
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Compare to verse 8 emphasis mine here and above.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

See context here: <https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2 Thessalonians 2&version=KJV>

Notice 'that wicked' is to be destroyed with the brightness of the Lord's coming.

But notice that 'the rapture passage' in I Thessalonians 4 occurs at the Lord's coming. Bold emphasis mine.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

So we have 'that wicked' from II Thessalonians 2 being destroyed at the brightness of the Lord's coming, and the saints being raptured (caught up) at the Lord's coming. How does that leave any room for the pretrib rapture theory? There isn't any passage that actually shows or describes a rapture prior to the tribulation either. Some people read the idea into John being told to 'come up hither' near the beginning of his vision in Revelation, an odd allegorical interpretation, and a rather strange argument coming from interpreters who insist on literalism.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Lol
I find it interesting that you go to such lengths to think a wedding is ONLY festivities and it would be strange to apply intimacy with the bride and groom.
I said chamber because it is a ROOM WITH A DOOR.

So would [in the "Parable of the BANQUET"] "and THE WEDDING HALL was filled with GUESTS [PLURAL]" Matt22:10. It's a picture though.

W e have
Bride
Groom
A room with a door
Door shut (for privacy)

"Door Open"

Consider the following:

--"open door... that no man can shut" Rev3:8
[see also about "Cyrus--His anointed" in Isa45:1 "[said to Cyrus] to open the doors before him, so that the gates/doors will not be shut"]


--Rev3:20 "if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me."
[according to the context (re: the "churchES" [wherein is both believers and those who come in His name but who are not truly connected with Him--thus neither hot nor cold]), I believe these are who enter the Trib yrs, b/c they were not "saved" before the Rapture took place; they've been counseled to "buy of Me gold TRIED IN THE FIRE" that they may be rich... and clothed... they had actually been "poor, blind, naked" (in the "things WHICH ARE" section)]


--"After this I saw a door opening into heaven." Rev4:1

And finally those refused because the groom has not known them (no intimacy)
Even though they had small oil,lamps, light,and were waiting for Jesus.

I've made a post before about the "LAMPS LIT" (and the "oil") connecting with:

--the "IN THE NIGHT [/in the NIGHT WATCHES]" time-period (FOLLOWING "our Rapture" when "the DOTL *ARRIVES* to unfold upon the earth--a day always starts at Sundown, when it pertains to Israel/Hebrew-reckoning; but note this is not a mere "24-hr day")

--Lev24 - "2 Command the children of Israel, that they bring unto thee pure oil olive beaten for the light, to cause the lamps to burn continually. 3 Without the vail of the testimony, in the tabernacle of the congregation, shall Aaron order it from the evening unto the morning before the Lord continually: it shall be a statute for ever in your generations."

--"ten virgins, which took their lamps"... "they that were foolish [5 of them], took their lamps, and TOOK NO OIL WITH THEM. But the wise [the other 5] took oil in their vessels WITH THEIR LAMPS."

--the message that WILL BE preached IN/DURING/WITHIN the trib years, is this: Matthew 24:14/26:13 ("this gospel of the kingdom"... "wherever this gospel shall be preached in the whole world, there SHALL ALSO THIS, that THIS WOMAN HATH DONE, BE TOLD for a memorial for her" [the "ointment" she used to anoint Him (His head and His body for His burial) would have contained "olive oil". See also: Ex.29:7 - "7 Then shalt thou take the anointing oil, and pour it upon his head [see Matt26:7 "and poured it on His head"], and anoint him."])

The last supper dialog has Jesus reenacting the Jewish betrothal and saying he goes to prepare a place in his fathers mansions for his bride.

Okay, so?

This does not disagree with what I've put.

To think the bride/groom component intimacy is something to be challenged is amazing.

I've not challenged "the bride/groom component" and its "intimacy" (just that Matt25:1-13 is not speaking of it, but of the "VirginS/bridesmaidS [PLURAL]" pertaining to "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" not "the MARRIAGE" itself! which are distinct items);

Recall, I've stated that the "WITH [G4862 - UNION-with] Him" word, that pertains TO US (at our Rapture) is NOT the same word we find here in Matt25:10, where the "5 VirginS [PLURAL]" went in "with [G3326 - accompany] Him to the wedding feast/supper/festivities" (where the guests [plural] also will be in attendance); see the DIFFERENCE? One pertains to "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" (and the PLURALS), whereas the other pertains to "the MARRIAGE [UNION]" itself (and the SINGULAR!)

You went to lengths to take the obvious off the table

No, I didn't.

I'm saying, the "MARRIAGE" takes place IN HEAVEN *before* His "RETURN" to the earth;

...thereafter the "wedding FEAST/SUPPER" / "the MEAL [G347; see Lk12:36-40 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" (returning WITH His Bride/Wife, as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom) THEN the meal [G347]] takes place on the earth (and *IS* the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom); He is not coming AT THAT POINT to "MARRY" the 10 or 5 "VirginS [PLURAL]," and those never lift off the earth. They've "lit the LAMPS" for the "IN THE NIGHT" aspect of "the DOTL" time-period that WE ("the Church which is His body") will NOT be present on the earth for (i.e. the TRIB years / the "DARK/DARKNESS/IN THE NIGHT" aspect). ALL of the "Lightbulbs" will have been taken OUT [/UP/AWAY] in the Rapture!

____________




We see the "24 elders" saying "hast redeemed US to God by thy blood, out of EVERY kindred and tongue and people and nation" way back at Rev5:9 before Jesus "STANDS to JUDGE" by opening the FIRST SEAL), so why are you saying such a thing waits till Rev19 and His "RETURN" to the earth?? (since you are pre-trib, as I am)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

If 'that wicked' in II Thessalonians 2:8 is the man of sin mentioned in verse 3 (an interpretation I have not seen challenged), then how can the pretrib rapture be possible.
II Thessalonians 2:3 says
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Compare to verse 8 emphasis mine here and above.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
See context here: <https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2 Thessalonians 2&version=KJV>
Notice 'that wicked' is to be destroyed with the brightness of the Lord's coming.

But notice that 'the rapture passage' in I Thessalonians 4 occurs at the Lord's coming. Bold emphasis mine.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

So we have 'that wicked' from II Thessalonians 2 being destroyed at the brightness of the Lord's coming, and the saints being raptured (caught up) at the Lord's coming. How does that leave any room for the pretrib rapture theory? There isn't any passage that actually shows or describes a rapture prior to the tribulation either. Some people read the idea into John being told to 'come up hither' near the beginning of his vision in Revelation, an odd allegorical interpretation, and a rather strange argument coming from interpreters who insist on literalism.

Recall my saying that "parousia" is used of BOTH time-slots/events/-periods (at "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" and at His "RETURN" to the earth), so that CONTEXT determines "IN WHOSE PRESENCE" His "PRESENCE [parousia]" WILL BE... at our Rapture, ONLY *WE* (the Church which is His body) will be present UP THERE (at the "meeting [noun] of the Lord IN THE AIR") WITH HIM in His PRESENCE, but at His Second Coming TO THE EARTH, His "MANIFESTATION [/brightness-kjv; epiphaneia] of His presence [/parousia]" (2:8b) will be seen/experienced BY ALL WHO ARE located ON THE EARTH (where "the man of sin" will be existing at the time); May the reader also note that 2:8a and 2:8b are seven years apart, and not occurring at the same moment.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ EDIT to ADD ('timed-out' before I could put this also):

"[just following "our Rapture," the "DOTL" ("IN THE NIGHT" aspect) falls upon the earth to unfold over the course of the 7 yrs--"NO BRIGHTNESS IN IT" (Amos 5:20 - "Shall not the day of the Lord be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?"--1Th5:2-3 "...you know perfectly that the DOTL ARRIVES like a thief IN THE NIGHT..." See also Gen46:2 and Dan7:7, etc...)]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

If 'that wicked' in II Thessalonians 2:8 is the man of sin mentioned in verse 3 (an interpretation I have not seen challenged), then how can the pretrib rapture be possible.

II Thessalonians 2:3 says
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Compare to verse 8 emphasis mine here and above.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

[...]
So we have 'that wicked' from II Thessalonians 2 being destroyed at the brightness of the Lord's coming, and the saints being raptured (caught up) at the Lord's coming. How does that leave any room for the pretrib rapture theory? There isn't any passage that actually shows or describes a rapture prior to the tribulation either. Some people read the idea into John being told to 'come up hither' near the beginning of his vision in Revelation, an odd allegorical interpretation, and a rather strange argument coming from interpreters who insist on literalism.

I meant to address the bold parts ^ (esp top and bottom paragraphs ^ ) in my last post, but forgot...

I had made a couple posts about that (see links to those posts, at bottom)...

but the thing to remember is, that IN VERSE 2, Paul is basically telling them NOT to be convinced by anyone telling them that "the DOTL *IS PRESENT [PERFECT indicative]*"... The DOTL is an EARTHLY-located time-period involving JUDGMENTs unfolding upon the earth over the course of SOME TIME (it is not merely a "singular 24-hr day"); it was REASONABLE for them to be [wrongly] persuaded that this is TRUE *because* of the VERY NEGATIVE things "persecutions and tribulations" they were presently and ONGOINGLY *experiencing*/enduring, per 2Th1:4. That TIME-PERIOD (involving JUDGMENTs unfolding upon the earth) is distinct from what v.1 was mentioning (our Rapture event [IN THE AIR]).

It was NOT present; and Paul tells WHY.

Paul is telling how the one thing "fits" IN RELATION [sequence-wise] TO the other thing.

ONE THING must happen *FIRST* before the DOTL can be present to unfold upon the earth, with its "man of sin" who will DO ALL that he is prophesied TO DO (over the course of that "IN THE NIGHT" aspect/earthly-located-TIME-PERIOD ["the DOTL" that ARRIVES like the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3 / Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE ['a certain one' bringing deception]'" which is at the START of the 7-yrs (and EQUIVALENT to SEAL #1 in the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period, per Rev1:1/19c/4:1)].)

MANY MORE "birth PANGS [PLURAL, Jesus spoke of]" follow on from that INTIAL one... It is not "ONE and DONE" when it comes to "birth PANGS"





[the LINKS to those posts]

[Paul repeats the SEQUENCE 3x in 2Th2: Color-coded chart POST--page 15--Post #290 (different thread)]
https://christianchat.com/threads/what-is-your-best-proof-for-a-pre-trib-rapture.188798/post-4095977


[2Th2 explanation POST--page 15 - Post #289 (different thread)]
https://christianchat.com/threads/what-is-your-best-proof-for-a-pre-trib-rapture.188798/post-4095956

 

[echoChrist]

What other group knows your doctrine.

God does not reveal to just one believer.
Nor does he hide from his own people his purposes/truth.

What is your exclusive knowledge?

I didn’t say exclusive I meant lot of people miss it in Bible.

 

[echoChrist]

Ok you accused all in here of false doctrine.

Show me anything I posted that you disagree with using the bible as your foundation.

I meant the ones that don’t understand the word not implying you.

 

[presidente]

Recall my saying that "parousia" is used of BOTH time-slots/events/-periods (at "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" and at His "RETURN" to the earth), so that CONTEXT determines "IN WHOSE PRESENCE" His "PRESENCE [parousia]" WILL BE... at our Rapture, ONLY *WE* (the Church which is His body) will be present UP THERE (at the "meeting [noun] of the Lord IN THE AIR") WITH HIM in His PRESENCE, but at His Second Coming TO THE EARTH, His "MANIFESTATION [/brightness-kjv; epiphaneia] of His presence [/parousia]" (2:8b) will be seen/experienced BY ALL WHO ARE located ON THE EARTH (where "the man of sin" will be existing at the time); May the reader also note that 2:8a and 2:8b are seven years apart, and not occurring at the same moment.

Your response does not make much sense to me. How is your idea here relevant to what I posted? The parousia takes place at a certain point in time. I Thessalonians 4 places it at the rapture. II Thessalonians 2 places it at the destruction of 'that wicked.' You assert various things about location of 'parousia'... I think... while mine wsa about timing. Your comment about timing is that that 2:8 and 2:8 are seven years apart. It's rather nonsensical.

Could you please strip all your posts of varying sizes and get rid of the caps. I may just ignore your posts if you don't. I feel like I am trying to read computer code.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Your response does not make much sense to me. How is your idea here relevant to what I posted?

First off, let me ask you,

--do you believe that, at the very moment when "the man of sin [/that Wicked] be revealed" is the very moment that Jesus "destroys" [and "consumes" him with the spirit/breath of His mouth]?

--or do you believe there is a spans of time between the two?
(thus, that 8a is when "the man of sin [/that wicked]" is REVEALED, and that 8b is saying "WHOM" the Lord "shall [future tense]" consume... destroy... as in, this is identifying the one who it is He "shall [future tense to the "be revealed" thing] consume... destroy... at His [Jesus'] visible "manifestation [/epiphaneia]" when He "returns" to the earth Rev19, which isn't the same moment "the man of sin be revealed")

The parousia takes place at a certain point in time. I Thessalonians 4 places it at the rapture. II Thessalonians 2 places it at the destruction of 'that wicked.' You assert various things about location of 'parousia'... I think... while mine wsa about timing.

I'm simply saying that "parousia" is used at both "times" (each; distinctly)

(it depends on where He will be located and the TIMING of those, and who it is that will experience His "presence" in each of those distinct cases, whether "in the air" [re: "our Rapture"], or "on the earth" [re: that Wicked/man of sin, as well as all those who are still on the earth at the Rev19 time-slot, i.e. His "RETURN" to the earth--Lk12:36-37,38-42 and its parallels, and Lk19:12,15,17,19, etc])

Your comment about timing is that that 2:8 and 2:8 are seven years apart. It's rather nonsensical.

So am I to assume you believe the "man of sin be revealed" and his being "consumed... destroyed" take place at the same moment??

The moment he is revealed, Jesus destroys him, is that what you believe?

That is an unusual "take" on it.

Could you please strip all your posts of varying sizes and get rid of the caps. I may just ignore your posts if you don't. I feel like I am trying to read computer code.

 

[ewq1938]

So am I to assume you believe the "man of sin be revealed" and his being "consumed... destroyed" take place at the same moment??

Actually the revealing is not about his first appearance but to his being uncovered, exposed and revealed as being the man of sin because before that he claimed to be God. Naturally his first appearance came before the Apostasy because he causes it. He is revealed/uncovered by Christ when he returns and proves the other was a false God.


2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

The "revealing" is tied directly to the return of Christ.

G601
apokalupto¯
Thayer Definition:
1) to uncover, lay open what has been veiled or covered up
1a) disclose, make bare
2) to make known, make manifest, disclose what before was unknown
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G575 and G2572
Citing in TDNT: 3:563, 405

The man of sin is the Antichrist and will claim to be God as Paul writes. That is a lie and it is a veil which he covers himself with like a mask. To reveal him as the fraud he is is to unveil, and uncover and "disclose what before was unknown"

And that is specifically that he was not God but a fake, the man of sin merely lying about being God. Only the return of Christ makes that clear.



Matthew Henry

II. A revelation of that man of sin, that is (2Th_2:3), antichrist would take his rise from this general apostasy. The apostle afterwards speaks of the revelation of that wicked one (2Th_2:8), intimating the discovery which should be made of his wickedness, in order to his ruin

 

[presidente]

First off, let me ask you,

--do you believe that, at the very moment when "the man of sin [/that Wicked] be revealed" is the very moment that Jesus "destroys" [and "consumes" him with the spirit/breath of His mouth]?

--or do you believe there is a spans of time between the two?
(thus, that 8a is when "the man of sin [/that wicked]" is REVEALED, and that 8b is saying "WHOM" the Lord "shall [future tense]" consume... destroy... as in, this is identifying the one who it is He "shall [future tense to the "be revealed" thing] consume... destroy... at His [Jesus'] visible "manifestation [/epiphaneia]" when He "returns" to the earth Rev19, which isn't the same moment "the man of sin be revealed")

I do not have the time to decipher the code. I'll answer the first part... I think the man of sin will be around for a little while.

I'm simply saying that "parousia" is used at both "times" (each; distinctly)

What evidence do you have from scripture for multiple second comings of Christ?

(it depends on where He will be located and the TIMING of those, and who it is that will experience His "presence" in each of those distinct cases, whether "in the air" [re: "our Rapture"], or "on the earth" [re: that Wicked/man of sin, as well as all those who are still on the earth at the Rev19 time-slot, i.e. His "RETURN" to the earth--Lk12:36-37,38-42 and its parallels, and Lk19:12,15,17,19, etc])

That seems to me to be rather convoluted reasoning. Do you have any evidence that 'parousia' means one thing when you want it to mean one thing and something else when you want it to refer to something else?

So am I to assume you believe the "man of sin be revealed" and his being "consumed... destroyed" take place at the same moment??

Straw man. 'That wicked' is destroyed at the brightness of the Lord's coming, not the brightness of his own (the man of sin's) coming.

The moment he is revealed, Jesus destroys him, is that what you believe?

No, and it is not what I wrote, either.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

@ewq1938 ,

How does "Matthew Henry" (Post-millennialist, if I recall correctly) view the three times that "revealed" occurs in this passage? Does he view all three as speaking of the same moment (at Christ's return, per his view)?


____________

[from my linked post, a few posts back]


This sequence is repeated 3x in this passage (vv.3-8), and is the same sequence that 1Th4-5 also stated.

Here is the color-coded words to illustrate those 3x in 2Th2:3-8 -

1)

the departure first

and the man of sin

be revealed

2)

what withholdeth [/is restraining] in order that

he

might be revealed IN HIS TIME

3)

only he who is now [at present] restraining, will restrain, until out of the midst he be come [come to be]

and then [kai tote] shall that Wicked

be revealed


All of the green is referring to the noun-event of verse 1 (of the context). [...]

[end quoting excerpt from old post]

____________


Additionally, there are a number of passages that show the SAME "Beginning, Middle, End" (of the spans of 7 yrs) just as this 2Th2:3-9a passage does... will go try to find a succinct post I made on that...

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I do not have the time to decipher the code. I'll answer the first part... I think the man of sin will be around for a little while.

It's a simple question.

Is the man of sin "destroyed" at the very same moment he's "revealed"?

Or is there a spans of time between these two events?

What evidence do you have from scripture for multiple second comings of Christ?

If you're asking about His "return," the verses using that word speak ONLY of His Second Coming to the earth (at Rev19; like in Lk12:36-38,40,42-44 and its parallels, and Lk19:12,15,17,19, etc).

THAT happens ONLY ONCE.

But we are not addressing only that. (nor is Paul in 2Th2)

That seems to me to be rather convoluted reasoning. Do you have any evidence that 'parousia' means one thing when you want it to mean one thing and something else when you want it to refer to something else?

Do you believe that "the entire world" (everyone in it) will be "caught up/-away" to the MEETING [noun] of the Lord IN THE AIR?
I do not. I believe that only applies to "the Church which is His body" at the time of "our episynagoes UNTO HIM" there. "Our Rapture" event. No one else will experience His "presence [parousia]" at that point.

Straw man. 'That wicked' is destroyed at the brightness of the Lord's coming, not the brightness of his own (the man of sin's) coming.

Okay, right... I wasn't saying otherwise. Agreed.

I was asking *you* if you think "the man of sin/that Wicked" is destroyed at the very same moment he is "revealed" (both parts of v.8... which *I* am saying there is a spans of TIME between the two items: his "be revealed" and his being "consumed... destroyed"... i.e. not both of these two [revealed / destroyed] happening at the SAME MOMENT.

What is your view on that?

No, and it is not what I wrote, either.

Fine. Am I to assume you believe there is, say perhaps, 3.5 YEARS between the two things?

If so, then you also believe as I do (though I am saying there are SEVEN YEARS *between* the two), in that, you do see a SPANS of TIME *between* the two distinct items in v.8 (and that they do not occur at the same moment). I'm not sure *why* then that you were critical of my saying they do not occur at the same moment, and that that was the craziest idea ever ? Why are you responding to such a thought with "what you said":

presidente: I think... while mine wsa about timing. Your comment about timing is that that 2:8 and 2:8 are seven years apart. It's rather nonsensical.

Why is "what I put" MORE "nonsensical" than "what *you* put," when we both AGREE that there is a SPANS of YEARS (I think you believe "years" come between the two points) between those two items (his "be revealed" and his being "consumed... destroyed" by Jesus' "manifestation [epiphaneia] of His presence [parousia]," which does not happen at the same moment that the man of sin "be revealed"--we at least agree here that there IS a SPANS of SOME TIME between the TWO items in v.8... right??)

Where you and I differ, is that I see a distinction between:

--"our episynagoges UNTO HIM [i.e. IN THE AIR]" at "the coming/parousia of OUR Lord Jesus Christ" (v.1 "our Rapture" noun-event)
[and]
--"the manifestation/epiphaneia of His presence/parousia at His "RETURN" to the earth (where the "man of sin" [etc] will be, at the time) Rev19


...and that is because of what Paul also conveys in this context, about the "DOTL" and why it is NOT "PRESENT [PERFECT indicative]"...

...and with the understanding that 1Th5:2-3 supplied, which is that "the DOTL ARRIVES like/as... " the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that will "kick-off" that time-period (which Jesus had ALSO spoken of... Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE' which is EQUIVALENT to SEAL ONE--"the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" are EQUIVALENT to the SEALS of Rev6 at the START of the 7-yr period, not its middle, nor its end).
Simply put, Paul in 2Th2 is covering a SPANS of time, not merely a singular POINT-IN-TIME. (I gather that you agree... to some degree. )

 

[presidente]

It's a simple question.

Is the man of sin "destroyed" at the very same moment he's "revealed"?

Or is there a spans of time between these two events?

I answered this in the last post. He would need some time to do his work, but what in our conversation led to your question? What does it have to do with my post? That wicked is destroyed at the brightness of Christ's coming, not his own coming.

If you're asking about His "return," the verses using that word speak ONLY of His Second Coming to the earth (at Rev19; like in Lk12:36-38,40,42-44 and its parallels, and Lk19:12,15,17,19, etc).

What evidence do you have for multiple parousia of Christ? In I Thessalonians 1, when he returns the church receives rest and He executes vengence on them that know not God. You can posit multiple second comings, but why believe it if the Bible does not teach it?

THAT happens ONLY ONCE.

But we are not addressing only that. (nor is Paul in 2Th2)

Why not, if 'parousia' is used to describe these things?

Acts 1
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

When Jesus ascended, He ascended from the earth to heaven. So when He returns, why do you think He'll come part way, return, and come back again? That's not how He ascended.

Do you believe that "the entire world" (everyone in it) will be "caught up/-away" to the MEETING [noun] of the Lord IN THE AIR?
I do not. I believe that only applies to "the Church which is His body" at the time of "our episynagoes UNTO HIM" there. "Our Rapture" event. No one else will experience His "presence [parousia]" at that point.

At His parousia when He returns to earth, the dead in Christ are caught up to meet Him in the air. He returns with His holy ones.

 

[BenjaminN]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ For the viewers of that video ^ ...

see these: Posts #391 and #392 from another thread:

https://christianchat.com/threads/t...lessed-hope-of-the-saints.195611/post-4448305

 

[Absolutely]

So would [in the "Parable of the BANQUET"] "and THE WEDDING HALL was filled with GUESTS [PLURAL]" Matt22:10. It's a picture though.




"Door Open"

Consider the following:

--"open door... that no man can shut" Rev3:8
[see also about "Cyrus--His anointed" in Isa45:1 "[said to Cyrus] to open the doors before him, so that the gates/doors will not be shut"]


--Rev3:20 "if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me."
[according to the context (re: the "churchES" [wherein is both believers and those who come in His name but who are not truly connected with Him--thus neither hot nor cold]), I believe these are who enter the Trib yrs, b/c they were not "saved" before the Rapture took place; they've been counseled to "buy of Me gold TRIED IN THE FIRE" that they may be rich... and clothed... they had actually been "poor, blind, naked" (in the "things WHICH ARE" section)]


--"After this I saw a door opening into heaven." Rev4:1



I've made a post before about the "LAMPS LIT" (and the "oil") connecting with:

--the "IN THE NIGHT [/in the NIGHT WATCHES]" time-period (FOLLOWING "our Rapture" when "the DOTL *ARRIVES* to unfold upon the earth--a day always starts at Sundown, when it pertains to Israel/Hebrew-reckoning; but note this is not a mere "24-hr day")

--Lev24 - "2 Command the children of Israel, that they bring unto thee pure oil olive beaten for the light, to cause the lamps to burn continually. 3 Without the vail of the testimony, in the tabernacle of the congregation, shall Aaron order it from the evening unto the morning before the Lord continually: it shall be a statute for ever in your generations."

--"ten virgins, which took their lamps"... "they that were foolish [5 of them], took their lamps, and TOOK NO OIL WITH THEM. But the wise [the other 5] took oil in their vessels WITH THEIR LAMPS."

--the message that WILL BE preached IN/DURING/WITHIN the trib years, is this: Matthew 24:14/26:13 ("this gospel of the kingdom"... "wherever this gospel shall be preached in the whole world, there SHALL ALSO THIS, that THIS WOMAN HATH DONE, BE TOLD for a memorial for her" [the "ointment" she used to anoint Him (His head and His body for His burial) would have contained "olive oil". See also: Ex.29:7 - "7 Then shalt thou take the anointing oil, and pour it upon his head [see Matt26:7 "and poured it on His head"], and anoint him."])



Okay, so?

This does not disagree with what I've put.



I've not challenged "the bride/groom component" and its "intimacy" (just that Matt25:1-13 is not speaking of it, but of the "VirginS/bridesmaidS [PLURAL]" pertaining to "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" not "the MARRIAGE" itself! which are distinct items);

Recall, I've stated that the "WITH [G4862 - UNION-with] Him" word, that pertains TO US (at our Rapture) is NOT the same word we find here in Matt25:10, where the "5 VirginS [PLURAL]" went in "with [G3326 - accompany] Him to the wedding feast/supper/festivities" (where the guests [plural] also will be in attendance); see the DIFFERENCE? One pertains to "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" (and the PLURALS), whereas the other pertains to "the MARRIAGE [UNION]" itself (and the SINGULAR!)



No, I didn't.

I'm saying, the "MARRIAGE" takes place IN HEAVEN *before* His "RETURN" to the earth;

...thereafter the "wedding FEAST/SUPPER" / "the MEAL [G347; see Lk12:36-40 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" (returning WITH His Bride/Wife, as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom) THEN the meal [G347]] takes place on the earth (and *IS* the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom); He is not coming AT THAT POINT to "MARRY" the 10 or 5 "VirginS [PLURAL]," and those never lift off the earth. They've "lit the LAMPS" for the "IN THE NIGHT" aspect of "the DOTL" time-period that WE ("the Church which is His body") will NOT be present on the earth for (i.e. the TRIB years / the "DARK/DARKNESS/IN THE NIGHT" aspect). ALL of the "Lightbulbs" will have been taken OUT [/UP/AWAY] in the Rapture!

____________




We see the "24 elders" saying "hast redeemed US to God by thy blood, out of EVERY kindred and tongue and people and nation" way back at Rev5:9 before Jesus "STANDS to JUDGE" by opening the FIRST SEAL), so why are you saying such a thing waits till Rev19 and His "RETURN" to the earth?? (since you are pre-trib, as I am)

I m only following about half of what you say.
Too many brackets and obstacles in your message.

We seem to agree but your need to reframe the parable is tedious.

 

[Absolutely]

Where does he address my verses?

Is he mid trib or something?

His big deal is "precrser"

He is anti pretrib rapture and that prism drives every sentence he preaches.