Is the false teaching of pre-tribulation rapture, getting the power of "him" out of the way, who restrains the antichrist?

[TheDivineWatermark]

He is going out girt with a sword. Invitation to the wedding super takes place then. It's all after the tribulation.

V.9 is saying, "[Blessed are those] HAVING BEEN INVITED [PERFECT participle]..."

I believe that means, PRIOR TO this point in time, in the chronology (I believe that will have taken place all throughout the Trib yrs leading UP TO this point, consisting of Matt24:14/26:13 [msg going forth] among a few passages speaking of this--I believe it has been CONCLUDED by this point in the chronology)

[V.9]
2564 [e]
keklēmenoi
κεκλημένοι .
having been invited
V-RPM/P-NMP [PERFECT participle]

Revelation 19:9 Interlinear


[again, this is the "INVITATION" TO the wedding FEAST/SUPPER, i.e. the earthly MK age]

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Paul taught no such thing! Paul taught the gathering of the church first, then the Day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath.

By teaching that the church is present on the earth during the time of God's wrath, you do away with the fact that Jesus took upon himself God's wrath, satisfying it completely. Because of this, the wrath of God no long rests upon believers.

.

The tribulation is not the wrath of God.
It has never been a mid/post trib or pre wrath teaching that God pours out his wrath on believers.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

V.9 is saying, "[Blessed are those] HAVING BEEN INVITED [PERFECT participle]..."

I believe that means, PRIOR TO this point in time, in the chronology (I believe that will have taken place all throughout the Trib yrs leading UP TO this point, consisting of Matt24:14/26:13 among a few passages speaking of this)

[V.9]
2564 [e]
keklēmenoi
κεκλημένοι .
having been invited
V-RPM/P-NMP [PERFECT participle]

Revelation 19:9 Interlinear

You think it's taking place in heaven?

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

@Lucy-Pevensie , the words [for] "Rapture" and "Resurrection" mean two entirely distinct things (they are not the same thing):

--"resurrection" means "to stand again [on the earth]"

--"rapture" means "caught up/-away / snatch" (and for us, that is, "to the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR")





[Daniel, for example (as well as all OT saints), will be "resurrected ['to stand again' on the earth]"... and was/were not promised "rapture [IN THE AIR]," which pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body" (ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]"; Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence)]


So... when Paul had said (1Cor15:51-54), "Behold, I shew you A MYSTERY... THIS mortal... and THIS corruptible...," he was speaking specifically of "the Church which is His body" (to whom "Rapture" SOLELY pertains [NOT to all other saints of all OTHER time periods; not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK saints]): both "the DEAD *IN* Christ" and the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto" aspects OF that "ONE BODY" (who shall be "caught up TOGETHER" [i.e. "AS ONE"] at the time of "our Rapture/THE Departure/our episynagoges UNTO HIM" [that is, "IN THE AIR"], and "so shall *we* ever be WITH [G4862 - UNION-with] the Lord" [a distinct "with" word from, say, the "5 virginS [PLURAL]" who will go with [/accompanying] Him into the wedding FEAST/SUPPER / earthly MK age [without ever having "lifted off" the earth, and whom He is NOT coming to "MARRY"])

You do like to complicate things.
Some are dead & go first
Some are alive and go directly following. It's the same event.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

EDIT to clarify: "I believe it [the "INVITATION"] has been CONCLUDED by this point in the chronology)"

You think it's taking place in heaven?

No. Not "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" (aka EARTHLY MK age), NOR the "INVITATION" TO it (which takes place all throughout the TRIB yrs, and not before those 7 years [which 7 Trib yrs are FOLLOWING "our Rapture"]--not done BY US)

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

one can be resurrected but never "taken up to heaven"

Of course (& I don't mean that sarcastically.)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

You do like to complicate things.
Some are dead & go first
Some are alive and go directly following. It's the same event.

If by "go" you mean "are RAPTURED [/CAUGHT UP]," (and I do gather this is what you mean by it), then NO, the text does not state this (as you have it).

We (provided we're the "ALIVE and remain" / still-living at the time) are NOT said to "go up there and meet THEM where they've already been 'caught up' PRIOR to us being 'caught up'..." . No, the TEXT STATES that we will be "caught up TOGETHER [G260]" (meaning, the verb-action for both happens AT THE SAME TIME).

[from BibleHub, under the word "together [G260]" in that verse]

"In 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and 1 Thessalonians 5:10, where ἅμα is followed by σύν, ἅμα is an adverb (at the same time) and must be joined to the verb."

[end quoting]

____________

That is fairly simple.

That means, where it says they "rise first," that means, "'to stand again' on the earth" (before we are then "caught up TOGETHER")... though I do not believe this necessitates that any others (the unsaved) will be able to "SEE" them... just like the "Proto-Type" of Jesus' Resurrection Body (His Body, after His Resurrection... which seemed to have unusual characteristics, like when he "VANISHED out of their sight," etc--oh, and that He ONLY appeared to carefully chosen witnesses, not to EVERYONE)

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

EDIT to clarify: "I believe it [the "INVITATION"] has been CONCLUDED by this point in the chronology)"




No. Not "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" (aka EARTHLY MK age), NOR the "INVITATION" TO it (which takes place all throughout the TRIB yrs, and not before those 7 years [which 7 Trib yrs are FOLLOWING "our Rapture"]--not done BY US)

This is one of the multitude of holes in the Pre-trib theory for me.
I've never been able to find in scripture, a 7-year supper taking place in heaven during the tribulation.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

If by "go" you mean "are RAPTURED [/CAUGHT UP]," (and I do gather this is what you mean by it), then NO, the text does not state this (as you have it).

We (provided we're the "ALIVE and remain" / still-living at the time) are NOT said to "go up there and meet THEM where they've already been 'caught up' PRIOR to us being 'caught up'..." . No, the TEXT STATES that we will be "caught up TOGETHER" (meaning, the verb-action for both happens AT THE SAME TIME).

[from BibleHub, under the word "together [G260]" in that verse]

"In 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and 1 Thessalonians 5:10, where ἅμα is followed by σύν, ἅμα is an adverb (at the same time) and must be joined to the verb."

[end quoting]

____________

That is fairly simple.

That means, where it says they "rise first," that means, "'to stand again' on the earth"... though I do not believe this necessitates that any others (the unsaved) will be able to "SEE" them... just like the "Proto-Type" of Jesus' Resurrection Body (His Body, after His Resurrection... which seemed to have unusual characteristics, like when he "VANISHED out of their sight," etc)

I said that it happens at the same time.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

This is one of the multitude of holes in the Pre-trib theory for me.
I've never been able to find in scripture, a 7-year supper taking place in heaven during the tribulation.

Well, I am "pre-trib," and I am saying that "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" is ON THE EARTH (EQUIVALENT to "the EARTHLY MK age," or at the very least, its inauguration). NOT "UP IN Heaven"!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I said that it happens at the same time.

Okay, but here's what I saw you saying:

Some are dead & go first
Some are alive and go directly following.

What did you mean by "go"... and "first"... and "following" (that sounds like two distinct slots of time/moments, rather than "AT THE SAME TIME"/"TOGETHER" being caught up).

Fine, if you are saying otherwise. = )


[I believe this is saying we are "caught up TOGETHER" at the "SAME MOMENT" as the "ONE BODY" (which is distinct from "how" it describes Israel's being "gathered" in Isa27:12-13 [/Matt24:29-31 at the "GREAT trumpet"]--"ONE BY ONE")]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

V.9 is saying, "[Blessed are those] HAVING BEEN INVITED [PERFECT participle]..."
I believe that means, PRIOR TO this point in time, in the chronology (I believe that will have taken place all throughout the Trib yrs leading UP TO this point, consisting of Matt24:14/26:13 [msg going forth] among a few passages speaking of this--I believe it [/the "INVITING"] has been CONCLUDED by this point in the chronology)
[V.9] 2564 [e]
keklēmenoi
κεκλημένοι .
having been invited
V-RPM/P-NMP [PERFECT participle]
Revelation 19:9 Interlinear


[again, this is the "INVITATION" TO the wedding FEAST/SUPPER, i.e. the earthly MK age]

To be clear to the readers, I am saying that only the "INVITATION" (TO "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" / earthly MK age) is what has been COMPLETED by this Rev19 point in the chronology (the "INVITING" having taken place all throughout the 7 trib yrs ON THE EARTH, [FOLLOWING "our Rapture"]--and not BY US!), NOT the actual FEASTING/FESTIVITIES of "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER [/earthly MK age]" being "concluded" by that point Rev19. No.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Okay, but here's what I saw you saying:



What did you mean by "go"... and "first"... and "following" (that sounds like two distinct slots of time/moments, rather than "AT THE SAME TIME"/"TOGETHER" being caught up).

Fine, if you are saying otherwise. = )


[I believe this is saying we are "caught up TOGETHER" at the "SAME MOMENT" as the "ONE BODY" (which is distinct from "how" it describes Israel's being "gathered" in Isa27:12-13 [/Matt24:29-31 at the "GREAT trumpet"]--"ONE BY ONE")]

I was referring to 1 Thess 4:16-17 The dead in Christ will rise first etc.....
But we also know it all happens "In the twinkling of an eye" as per 1 Cor 15:52
I'm sure you agree that scripture flows together.

It's a major super natural event that follows a sequence but I don't think we will even notice a time difference because
it will happen at extremely high speed by our perception.
I thought I had better be specific about the sequence or someone will pull me up about it.
Instead you pulled me up for the opposite reason.

 

[Absolutely]

The scriptures posted prove rapture comes after the resurrection of dead in Christ and after the second coming and the second coming comes at 7th trump which means great trib ended. rapture is after or post trib. Pre-trib simply isn't scriptural and is not where Paul placed the rapture.

There are about 5 things that nail your teaching to the coffin.

the white horses are so blatantly missing in your rapture concept it is gone into you reframing the word of God.

even when SHOWN rev 14,you still erroneously reframe Gods word.

 

[Absolutely]

Paul did not teach the gathering of the church first.

2 Thess 2:1

"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him: "


"concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him: "

The Apostle is telling you that the gathering is at the COMING OF OUR LORD.
Not 7 years or any time before. We await one return.

Read the 10 vigin parable.

Jesus comes.

THEY GO OUT to meet him.

THEY GO WITH HIM to the wedding chamber [postibs have no such wedding chamber,and need to add millions of white horses,no wedding,and immeditely in battle killing the AC]

THEY NEVER return (in the parable) to the house of the bride (earth)
[postribs not only have Jesus immediately taking the bride BACK TO HER HOUSE,earth, but with millions of white horses]

THEY GO to another place (wedding chamber)

THEY GO with Jesus, to heaven.

Jesus also COMES in rev 14.

in the rapture and in rev 14 Jesus COMES but never touches earth.

 

[Absolutely]

To be clear to the readers, I am saying that only the "INVITATION" (TO "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" / earthly MK age) is what has been COMPLETED by this Rev19 point in the chronology (the "INVITING" having taken place all throughout the 7 trib yrs ON THE EARTH, [FOLLOWING "our Rapture"]--and not BY US!), NOT the actual FEASTING/FESTIVITIES of "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER [/earthly MK age]" being "concluded" by that point Rev19. No.

Could be we agree.

I do not know what you are saying about the mil.

 

[Absolutely]

I agree, in references to Jesus return he comes in the clouds. Just as he appeared to Moses & Israel. In a pillar of cloud.
The white horse is likely referring to something else. He is going out girt with a sword. Invitation to the wedding super takes place then. It's all after the tribulation.

rev 19

the bride BECOMES THE WIFE
the saints are on white horses IN HEAVEN

the saints, on white horses descend to earth with Jesus to battle the ac.

no rapture after the gt

 

[Absolutely]

postrib rapture adherents.

the white horses

the white horses.

they change either the word, or your doctrine

what say you?

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

rev 19

the bride BECOMES THE WIFE
the saints are on white horses IN HEAVEN

the saints, on white horses descend to earth with Jesus to battle the ac.

no rapture after the gt

We are told exactly when the resurrection/ "rapture" takes place. (not by time & date)
This is a fascinating subject and a beautiful story woven throughout scripture but there is no joy in discussing it when you are so desperate to prove one theory.

 

[Absolutely]

We are told exactly when the resurrection/ "rapture" takes place. (not by time & date)
This is a fascinating subject and a beautiful story woven throughout scripture but there is no joy in discussing it when you are so desperate to prove one theory.

I center on the bride/groom.

More verses is better not worse.