Is having faith/belief obeying?

[mailmandan]

Would you please answer just yes or no: do our ongoing works maintain our salvation?

I call that "type 2 works salvation" or salvation by works at the back door.

 

[studier]

Your eisegesis

Such as?

 

[studier]

you seem to be making this out to be more complicated than it really is.

A typical claim made by some who haven't thought things through beyond a point.

 

[GWH]

Would you please answer just yes or no: do our ongoing works maintain our salvation?

If the question could be answered fully that simply half of the posts on CC would not exist.

 

[Cameron143]

If the question could be answered fully that simply half of the posts on CC would not exist.

I can answer unequivocally: NO! My obedience and works do NOT keep me saved. I am preserved by Christ. My obedience and works are born out of my salvation.
You?

 

[studier]

Actually, it is the previous verse that speaks to man's responsibility in light of the work that God is doing.
And the whole point I'm making is that these people are already saved, to which all parties agree. But @studier is contending that these verses are teaching that we must do works in order to maintain our salvation, and not that works result from our salvation. Do you believe our ongoing works maintain our salvation?

Which of course is misstating anything I've said, since I've only stated what I see in the language about accomplishing salvation. Maintaining is another although related topic which I and I think @GWH in #204 have said something about.

 

[GWH]

I can answer unequivocally: NO! My obedience and works do NOT keep me saved. I am preserved by Christ. My obedience and works are born out of my salvation.
You?

Your answer had many more words than no.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Faith is the root of salvation and obedience which followed in Hebrews 11 is the fruit. It was by or out of faith that obedience was produced by Noah, Abraham and others in Hebrews 11 yet the obedience/works that were produced were not the very essence of faith but the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of their faith.

Right and without the works the faith was futile correct ?

In other words if Noah said “ I believe I have faith “ but then never acted upon the belief he would have drown rather than be inside the ark

“For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Faith can’t save us unless we act upon it it’s not complete until it’s fulfilled like Abraham’s faith eas fulfilled when he offered Isaac

“Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:21-23‬ ‭

Our faith is fulfilled when we act upon it also without that part it’s dead faith

 

[studier]

From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is NOT BY WORKS.

And you see no words like obedience, and no commands to Christians to do things, and no discussion of faith being tested and work being judged, etc. in 1Pet1 which is full of faith-obedience-good work on the part of the Christian.

There's actually no need to import NOT BY WORKS into 1Pet1 and create confusion. God's Salvation Plan is by grace not from [human] works, but once a person enters into God's Salvation Plan by grace through faith, under grace in Christ in Spirit the Christian does good works in faith-obedience in cooperation with God that are a part of the Salvation Process pursuant to God's Salvation Plan.

 

[Cameron143]

Which of course is misstating anything I've said, since I've only stated what I see in the language about accomplishing salvation. Maintaining is another although related topic which I and I think @GWH in #204 have said something about.

You also mistated who is doing the accomplishing. It is God who is doing it. And whole context of the passage is that given the reality that God is accomplishing these things in them, they are to respond to work God is doing.

 

[Cameron143]

Your answer had many more words than no.

But it began with no. So give me your answer beginning with yes or no, and then qualify it however you like.

 

[studier]

You also mistated who is doing the accomplishing

You're consistent at being incorrect. Being repeatedly shown the command to accomplish is made by Paul to the Christian is of no effect.

Mental blocks are amazing.

 

[Cameron143]

You're consistent at being incorrect. Being repeatedly shown the command to accomplish is made by Paul to the Christian is of no effect.

Mental blocks are amazing.

I'll try again. Are people doing something to which God responds, or is God doing something to which people are to respond?

 

[mailmandan]

And you see no words like obedience, and no commands to Christians to do things, and no discussion of faith being tested and work being judged, etc. in 1Pet1 which is full of faith-obedience-good work on the part of the Christian.

There's actually no need to import NOT BY WORKS into 1Pet1 and create confusion. God's Salvation Plan is by grace not from [human] works, but once a person enters into God's Salvation Plan by grace through faith, under grace in Christ in Spirit the Christian does good works in faith-obedience in cooperation with God that are a part of the Salvation Process pursuant to God's Salvation Plan.

There it is - "type 2 works salvation" or salvation by works at the back door. I knew something was off with your core beliefs. That error stems from confusing justification with ongoing sanctification and is similar to what I was taught in the Roman Catholic church.

 

[GWH]

But it began with no. So give me your answer beginning with yes or no, and then qualify it however you like.

No, but (per EPH 2:10) someone who professes faith but lacks love is not saved (JM 2:17), loving/good works can be imitated by those who are not saved (per 2CR 11:14), and saving faith in Jesus as Lord is first (the horse) and opens the door for Christ indwelling saints as the Holy Spirit (per RV 3:20, RM 5:5 & 1CR 12:13) and continues (the cart) by producing loving works/fruit of the Spirit (per GAL 5:22-23).

 

[Cameron143]

No, but (per EPH 2:10) someone who professes faith but lacks love is not saved (JM 2:17), loving/good works can be imitated by those who are not saved (per 2CR 11:14), and saving faith in Jesus as Lord is first (the horse) and opens the door for Christ indwelling saints as the Holy Spirit (per RV 3:20, RM 5:5 & 1CR 12:13) and continues (the cart) by producing loving works/fruit of the Spirit (per GAL 5:22-23).

Awesome. That's not what some here believe.

 

[studier]

I'll try again. Are people doing something to which God responds, or is God doing something to which people are to respond?

Asked and answered.

 

[Cameron143]

Asked and answered.

Okay. The word you define as accomplish that is translated work out in the KJV, are there other definitions for the word than accomplish?

 

[studier]

There it is - "type 2 works salvation" or salvation by works at the back door. I knew something was off with your core beliefs. That error stems from confusing justification with ongoing sanctification and is similar to what I was taught in the Roman Catholic church.

Nice that you have invented some terminology for your erroneous understanding. I had exposure to the financial investment world, so we used to refer to some similar concepts as front-end loaded or back-end loaded.

Sure, my core beliefs are off, says the person who can't explain the foundational meaning of "Christ" using a short Psalm evangelistically directed by Christ's Apostle Paul, and now can't see things I've paraphrased by taking directly from 1Pet1.

Though I'll always be learning, I'm not confused re: entrance into God's Salvation Plan which some label justification and then abiding and growing in God's Salvation Plan which some label ongoing or experiential or progressive sanctification. Please do note that I'm purposely referring to both of these as parts of Salvation, because this is how Scripture speaks of Salvation.

What you're confused about is in part thinking in terms of theological constructs - manmade labels - while overriding Scripture.

Let's face it, you cannot read Psalm2 and explain who and what "Christ" is, and now you cannot read 1Pet1 and see how much Peter includes in regard to the things I stated. Re: both Ps2 and 1Pet1 you've imported external concepts into both of them. With such a practice, of course you'll find something off when someone remains tight with the Text. Your eisegesis vs. any exegesis don't mix.

One of the problems in our time is that so many are oriented to thinking in terms of various theological traditions - which is in part just the outgrowth of what Paul spoke about in 1Cor3 re: personal favoritism - and are not well-versed in Scripture. This problem of Scriptural illiteracy has been on the radar and under discussion for many, many decades if not centuries. You seem to have come out of Rome and ended up in anti-Rome that took you too far. Now you need to let Scripture bring you back to Truth.

I'm happy to go back to Ps2 or now to 1Pet1 verse by verse to point out some things but you'll have to find some objectivity I don't know you're capable of at this point. If we do so, I'm going to be asking more questions along the way.

 

[Inquisitor]

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

They do not understand how the paradigm of salvation works.

Because they have been taught faith plus their own input equals salvation.

They can read Ephesians 2:8 but they cannot understand what that verse states.

Two thousand years of faith plus holiness, works, legalism, fruit, church, equals salvation.