Is having faith/belief obeying?
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Salvation is by Grace through Faith. By Grace through Faith, we're living under Grace in God's Salvation Plan (ask @mailmandan to remind you of the 3 parts of the Salvation process he posted). Grace is an extensive topic:
NKJ Titus 2:11-15 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works. 15 Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you.
Under Grace we have some things to learn and do zealously. Within the above you'll see Phil2:12-13 if you take off the merit glasses - you and your audience.
NKJ Titus 2:11-15 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works. 15 Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you.
Under Grace we have some things to learn and do zealously. Within the above you'll see Phil2:12-13 if you take off the merit glasses - you and your audience.
Its not three parts of salvation
It is 3 salvations
I am saved from the penalty of sin (the moment I trust God) (Justification)
I am being saved from the power of sin (ongoing sanctification)
I will be saved from the ability to sin (glorification)
If your doing those things to earn salvation. Like you are., you have proven my point
It is 3 salvations
I am saved from the penalty of sin (the moment I trust God) (Justification)
I am being saved from the power of sin (ongoing sanctification)
I will be saved from the ability to sin (glorification)
If your doing those things to earn salvation. Like you are., you have proven my point
They already possess salvation...your salvation...it's already theirs.
In Ephesians 2:8...are saved. Past tense.
Let's say you are given a house. From that point forward you are a homeowner. But the one who gives you the house has left it unfurnished and asked that you would furnish the house and landscape the yard. He is, in a sense, telling you to work out your homeownership.
This is the sense that Paul is instructing the Philippians. They aren't providing the salvation; they are building it out. The house is theirs; they are improving its value.
This is no different from other biblical commands. Paul in Ephesians 4:22-24 speaks of putting off the old man and putting on the new man. Or Romans 6 where he speaks of walking in the newness of life. Or Peter in 2 Peter 1:5-7 where he exhorts believers to give diligence to add virtue to their faith, knowledge to virtue, and so forth.
In all these examples, the exhortation is to enlarge upon an already present condition, and not to produce or maintain any present condition.
In Ephesians 2:8...are saved. Past tense.
Let's say you are given a house. From that point forward you are a homeowner. But the one who gives you the house has left it unfurnished and asked that you would furnish the house and landscape the yard. He is, in a sense, telling you to work out your homeownership.
This is the sense that Paul is instructing the Philippians. They aren't providing the salvation; they are building it out. The house is theirs; they are improving its value.
This is no different from other biblical commands. Paul in Ephesians 4:22-24 speaks of putting off the old man and putting on the new man. Or Romans 6 where he speaks of walking in the newness of life. Or Peter in 2 Peter 1:5-7 where he exhorts believers to give diligence to add virtue to their faith, knowledge to virtue, and so forth.
In all these examples, the exhortation is to enlarge upon an already present condition, and not to produce or maintain any present condition.
Another reminder for you; I'm doing as commanded by Christ to accomplish salvation with fear and trembling as God is providing me capability to both will and do what pleases Him. And whatever I good work as commanded by Him while being saved as I understand I'll be receiving wages and rewards for.
How about you, in your very novel 2nd salvation? How do you get there BTW - do you graduate - or finish an apprenticeship - or just wake up one day and find yourself there by non-meritorious grace? How does it work? Where do we find these multiple salvations in the Text? Where do we see these multiple salvation plans specified?
How about you, in your very novel 2nd salvation? How do you get there BTW - do you graduate - or finish an apprenticeship - or just wake up one day and find yourself there by non-meritorious grace? How does it work? Where do we find these multiple salvations in the Text? Where do we see these multiple salvation plans specified?
I've quoted and explained the verse several times. 12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out (accomplish) your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. (Phil. 2:12-13 NKJ)
I've said multiple times that the Christian is being commanded. I've never said the unbeliever is being commanded here.
I've said multiple times that the Christian is being commanded. I've never said the unbeliever is being commanded here.
Your completely missing the point.
Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received,
in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you,
unless you believed in vain. ( 1 Corinthians 15:1-2)
1 Corinthians 2:2
For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.
The fundamental reason anyone can be saved is only by the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.
That's the atonement, the reconciliation, the forgiveness of the multitude of your sins.
Here read it again.
...the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved...
1 Corinthians 1:30
But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness
and sanctification, and redemption.
I hope your not thinking you are a righteous, holy, sanctified person?
You somehow contributed to that divine reconciliation?
Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received,
in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you,
unless you believed in vain. ( 1 Corinthians 15:1-2)
1 Corinthians 2:2
For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.
The fundamental reason anyone can be saved is only by the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.
That's the atonement, the reconciliation, the forgiveness of the multitude of your sins.
Here read it again.
...the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved...
1 Corinthians 1:30
But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness
and sanctification, and redemption.
I hope your not thinking you are a righteous, holy, sanctified person?
You somehow contributed to that divine reconciliation?
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I run across folks like that all the time on various Christian forum sites. I have called out multiple people over the years for teaching salvation by faith AND WORKS and even though they deny it, their statements spoke for themselves.
Here are some examples below of such folks:
It is works of obedience that help to save us and just not works of the law or works of merit. - still salvation by faith + works.
We are "initially" saved by grace through faith apart from works, but then afterwards, sanctification (which includes holy living and good works) also plays a part in the salvation process. - type 2 works salvation or salvation by works at the back door.
We are saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is not simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being water baptized, Eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments etc.. - salvation by faith + works. Roman Catholics basically redefine faith to "include" works. Salvation by faith "infused" with works and then those works become meritorious towards receiving eternal life. Others make the same error and basically end up teaching that we are saved by their own personal definition of non-meritorious works.
I was once in a discussion with a Seventh Day Adventist (I believe you know him) and he continuously cited verses about commandment keeping and strongly implied through the verses he cited by the way he cited them accompanied with his logic that we are saved by grace through faith + obeying the 10 commandments. I accused him of teaching "salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works." Of course he denied that, but then afterward contradicted himself by making this statement below:
The counterfeit Gospel is out there. What is the other Gospel? It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's Law (10 commandments) from the Cross. It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's 10 commandments from the plan of salvation. God’s Law has always been part of the true Gospel of Christ. The counterfeit Gospel does not have it. God's forever Law (the 10 commandments) is the foundation of both the Old and the New Covenant and the very foundation and basis of the true Gospel of Christ.
Here are some examples below of such folks:
It is works of obedience that help to save us and just not works of the law or works of merit. - still salvation by faith + works.
We are "initially" saved by grace through faith apart from works, but then afterwards, sanctification (which includes holy living and good works) also plays a part in the salvation process. - type 2 works salvation or salvation by works at the back door.
We are saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is not simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being water baptized, Eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments etc.. - salvation by faith + works. Roman Catholics basically redefine faith to "include" works. Salvation by faith "infused" with works and then those works become meritorious towards receiving eternal life. Others make the same error and basically end up teaching that we are saved by their own personal definition of non-meritorious works.
I was once in a discussion with a Seventh Day Adventist (I believe you know him) and he continuously cited verses about commandment keeping and strongly implied through the verses he cited by the way he cited them accompanied with his logic that we are saved by grace through faith + obeying the 10 commandments. I accused him of teaching "salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works." Of course he denied that, but then afterward contradicted himself by making this statement below:
The counterfeit Gospel is out there. What is the other Gospel? It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's Law (10 commandments) from the Cross. It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's 10 commandments from the plan of salvation. God’s Law has always been part of the true Gospel of Christ. The counterfeit Gospel does not have it. God's forever Law (the 10 commandments) is the foundation of both the Old and the New Covenant and the very foundation and basis of the true Gospel of Christ.
Exactly. By this qualifying statement, "unless you believed in vain" Paul recognized there are those who may have believed in vain, without cause or without effect, to no purpose, superficial belief. In contrast to those who hold fast to that word (the gospel) which Paul preached demonstrating a firmly rooted and established belief resulting in salvation.
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Did I ask you to provide the reference information for your definition of "vain"?
Does that reference information include "superficial belief" or is that your conclusion?
What does it mean to believe without cause?
What does it mean to believe without effect?
What does it mean to believe to no purpose?
BTW, when I asked you earlier if you listen to or read GES, this is GES. Such usually ends up as part of discussions on these topics.
Does that reference information include "superficial belief" or is that your conclusion?
What does it mean to believe without cause?
What does it mean to believe without effect?
What does it mean to believe to no purpose?
BTW, when I asked you earlier if you listen to or read GES, this is GES. Such usually ends up as part of discussions on these topics.
The only reason that anyone can be saved is contained in the verse below.
1 Corinthians 2:2
For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.
Everything else mentioned in the scripture is of secondary importance.
Salvation is only available to those that believe in Jesus.
All Paul was actually telling the Corinthians is Christ crucified.
"For I determined to know nothing among you except..."
Your obedience to Jesus is not the gospel.
Your obedience is not the source of your salvation.
You tell me how someone's obedience has anything to do with Christ's crucifixion?
1 Corinthians 2:2
For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.
Everything else mentioned in the scripture is of secondary importance.
Salvation is only available to those that believe in Jesus.
All Paul was actually telling the Corinthians is Christ crucified.
"For I determined to know nothing among you except..."
Your obedience to Jesus is not the gospel.
Your obedience is not the source of your salvation.
You tell me how someone's obedience has anything to do with Christ's crucifixion?
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Yet Paul knows and thankfully left us much more than this. Hopefully you're not so hyper-focused to miss context and to miss that by 1Cor15 Paul is saying that apart from Christ's resurrection our faith (including the cross) is worthless.
And then there's all the evangelistic proclamation Paul had spoken to the Corinthians including reference to Scripture that explains who and what YHWH's Christ is.
Tell me how Christ's crucifixion has any positive outcome for a human being who doesn't believe in / obey the Good News that Jesus is the Resurrected Christ, the Son of God.
Keep studying...
And then there's all the evangelistic proclamation Paul had spoken to the Corinthians including reference to Scripture that explains who and what YHWH's Christ is.
Tell me how Christ's crucifixion has any positive outcome for a human being who doesn't believe in / obey the Good News that Jesus is the Resurrected Christ, the Son of God.
Keep studying...