If sin is not imputed without the law, how can some claim that babies and children die because Adam's sin is imputed to them?

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PaulThomson

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It seems you are jumping to a different time ....

Once we have our resurrection body? No death. It is to be the same body as Jesus has.

What you are pointing at may very well be future mankind that will not be the Bride of Christ,, but resurrected believers who are not the Church.
You may be right. Or I may be right. How are you going to prove that you are right I and I am wrong? Are you going to merely cite your tradition.
 

PaulThomson

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I agree that "this ain’t saying Adams sin was imputed to anyone at all. It’s explaining how death came into the world, which is the prior sentence [of blanket mortality].
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5:13-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; ( Adam intriduved the world to sin and death )

and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:”( we all die because like Adam we sin too )
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Our own sin is the only issue we have if everyone I o ow and all my reletively sinned that’s not going to judge me but my own actions and words will independent of anyone else even Adam because of Christ and the gospel

Sinners who sin need remission of sins
This part of my post was poorly formatted and confusing. It should say -


I agree that "this ain’t saying Adams sin was imputed to anyone at all. It’s explaining how death came into the world, which is the prior sentence [of blanket mortality].

‭‭Romans‬ ‭5:13-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; ( Adam introduced the world to sin and death )

and so death passed upon all men, upon which all sinned:”

i.e. and so, death passed upon all men, and upon [death passing to all men], all sinned.
 

PaulThomson

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But all, at one time or another, feared death because it was in the world, and because of the fear of death many are... something something something!
The something something something is "all their lifetime subject to bondage."

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Heb 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Because we were subjected to death, God sent Jesus, subjecting Jesus to death (as much as he submitted Himself to being subjected to death) to deliver us from death, and sin because, through Him we no longer need to fear, not death, nor anything, because He has prevailed in subjecting everything to Him.

Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Amen! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
 

Genez

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Oct 12, 2017
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You may be right. Or I may be right. How are you going to prove that you are right I and I am wrong? Are you going to merely cite your tradition.
Not tradition.....

Jesus spoke of the Church here...

John 11:25-26

"I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die,
yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die."

Jesus spoke specifically in reference to His church. His bride.
Not, about other dispensations that believe in Him.

For the OT believers will inherit the New Earth.

In contrast to them, our home is in Heaven.

But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ.​
Philippians 3:20​
......
 

PaulThomson

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Not tradition.....

Jesus spoke of the Church here...

John 11:25-26

"I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die,
yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die."

Jesus spoke specifically in reference to His church. His bride.
Not, about other dispensations that believe in Him.

For the OT believers will inherit the New Earth.

In contrast to them, our home is in Heaven.

But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ.​
Philippians 3:20​
......
Jhn 11:25 Jesus (ὁ Ἰησοῦς) said unto her, (εἶπεν αὐτῇ) I am (Ἐγώ εἰμι ) the resurrection (ἡ ἀνάστασις), and the life (καὶ ἡ ζωή): the one believing (ὁ πιστεύων, present participle) into me (εἰς ἐμὲ), though he died (κἂν ἀποθάνῃ, aorist subjunctive), yet shall he live (ζήσεται Future indicative active):

Jhn 11:26 And every one living (καὶ πᾶς ὁ ζῶν) and believing (καὶ πιστεύων, present participle) into me (εἰς ἐμὲ) no way will he die (οὐ μὴ ἀποθάνῃ, aorist subjunctive) into the age ( εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα). Are you believing (πιστεύεις) this (τοῦτο)?

According to the Greek, it is those who are believing into Jesus when they died, who shall live after they die. And it is everyone who is alive and believing who will not die before and during the age to come.

I reckon that Jesus in these verse is speaking in the context of the resurrection. So, verse 25 is saying that the one believing into Jesus when He died will come to life at time of the resurrection. And verse 26 is saying that those who are alive and believing in Jesus at the time of the resurrection will not die, but will be changed in the twinkling of an eye into glorified bodies with unrestricted access to the tree of life, and so will not die during the age to come.

Those are the limits of the claims in these verses. Any broader claims must be proven from other verses. These two verses don't support the broader claims that you are reading into selective English translations of these two verses.
 

Genez

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Jhn 11:25 Jesus (ὁ Ἰησοῦς) said unto her, (εἶπεν αὐτῇ) I am (Ἐγώ εἰμι ) the resurrection (ἡ ἀνάστασις), and the life (καὶ ἡ ζωή): the one believing (ὁ πιστεύων, present participle) into me (εἰς ἐμὲ), though he died (κἂν ἀποθάνῃ, aorist subjunctive), yet shall he live (ζήσεται Future indicative active):

Jhn 11:26 And every one living (καὶ πᾶς ὁ ζῶν) and believing (καὶ πιστεύων, present participle) into me (εἰς ἐμὲ) no way will he die (οὐ μὴ ἀποθάνῃ, aorist subjunctive) into the age ( εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα). Are you believing (πιστεύεις) this (τοῦτο)?

According to the Greek, it is those who are believing into Jesus when they died, who shall live after they die. And it is everyone who is alive and believing who will not die before and during the age to come.

I reckon that Jesus in these verse is speaking in the context of the resurrection. So, verse 25 is saying that the one believing into Jesus when He died will come to life at time of the resurrection. And verse 26 is saying that those who are alive and believing in Jesus at the time of the resurrection will not die, but will be changed in the twinkling of an eye into glorified bodies with unrestricted access to the tree of life, and so will not die during the age to come.

Those are the limits of the claims in these verses. Any broader claims must be proven from other verses. These two verses don't support the broader claims that you are reading into selective English translations of these two verses.
Who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control,
will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body." Philippians 3:21​

The resurrection of the Church takes place at the rapture.
Our body will be just like His own glorious Heavenly body. Heavenly!
Our citizenship is in Heaven!

Others outside of the church? They will have their own resurrection bodies, but unlike ours.
Those ones will live forever on the everlasting New Earth.
They will have bodies made of the same elements of that everlasting New Earth.

There's the difference.
 

PaulThomson

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Who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control,
will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body." Philippians 3:21​

The resurrection of the Church takes place at the rapture.
Our body will be just like His own glorious Heavenly body. Heavenly!
Our citizenship is in Heaven!

Others outside of the church? They will have their own resurrection bodies, but unlike ours.
Those ones will live forever on the everlasting New Earth.
They will have bodies made of the same elements of that everlasting New Earth.

There's the difference.
Phl 3:21 Literal translation-

Who (ὃς ) shall be/keep on changing (μετασχηματίσει, future progressive) the body, (τὸ σῶμα) of the low estate of us (τῆς ταπεινώσεως ἡμῶν) for it to be/keep on being (εἰς τὸ γενέσθαι αὐτὸ, present middle infinitive) conformed (σύμμορφον, adjective) in his glorious body (τῷ σώματι τῆς δόξης αὐτοῦ), according to the working (κατὰ τὴν ἐνέργειαν) of him to be/keep on being able (τοῦ δύνασθαι αὐτὸν, present middle infinitive) even (καὶ) to subdue (ὑποτάξαι, aorist infinitive) to himself (ἑαὐτῷ) all things (τὰ πάντα).

Paraphrase translation of the sense-

who shall keep on changing what was our vile body, so that it keeps on being conformed with His glorious body, according to the operation by which He keeps on being able even to subdue all things to Himself.

There is nothing here that supports a claim that our bodies will own immortality by the same mechanism that makes Jesus' body immortal. The Greek infinitive tenses indicate an ongoing process of being conformed, not a once for all time irreversible perfect conformity to Christ's body.
 

Mem

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The something something something is "all their lifetime subject to bondage."
Thank you! I actually thought so exactly! and perhaps should work on trusting that it is God bringing His word to my memory and actually not me 'probably messing up.'
 

Mem

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Quite often missed...

When God began pouring our sins upon his body... God the Father and Holy Spirit had to forsake Him.


About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?”
(which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”). Matthew 27:46​


Not only physical death, did He experience.
For while He was bearing our sins? He experienced spiritual death.

And, note!
It was his spiritual death that He agonized over, not His physical death.


Points to ponder.
I agree. The physical aspect was a cake walk compared to being separated from the Father. Not to deter from the physical aspect of it, but the spiritual death was agonizing.....As humans, we naturally see and focus the horrible physical aspect of the Cross.......But it was the Spiritual that was AGONIZING for Christ.
I remember this being present in a relatively recent thread, concerning the separation of Jesus and I commented on the peculiarity of, and the possibility, that his agony in praying in the garden of Gethsemane may have illustrated a beginning of his process in dying. And, noting that Jesus held onto His faith even after crying out, "...why have you forsaken me?" I took Jesus' very next sentiment, "Into Your hands, I commend My spirit" as an expression of faith. And, if Jesus died spiritually before he died then, He would have entirely arrived at becoming the natural man and, according to certain doctrines, wouldn't it have been impossible for Him to then have exercised any faith at all?
I remember at least a similar point come up in and commented
 

Genez

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Phl 3:21 Literal translation-

Who (ὃς ) shall be/keep on changing (μετασχηματίσει, future progressive) the body, (τὸ σῶμα) of the low estate of us (τῆς ταπεινώσεως ἡμῶν) for it to be/keep on being (εἰς τὸ γενέσθαι αὐτὸ, present middle infinitive) conformed (σύμμορφον, adjective) in his glorious body (τῷ σώματι τῆς δόξης αὐτοῦ), according to the working (κατὰ τὴν ἐνέργειαν) of him to be/keep on being able (τοῦ δύνασθαι αὐτὸν, present middle infinitive) even (καὶ) to subdue (ὑποτάξαι, aorist infinitive) to himself (ἑαὐτῷ) all things (τὰ πάντα).

Paraphrase translation of the sense-

who shall keep on changing what was our vile body, so that it keeps on being conformed with His glorious body, according to the operation by which He keeps on being able even to subdue all things to Himself.

There is nothing here that supports a claim that our bodies will own immortality by the same mechanism that makes Jesus' body immortal. The Greek infinitive tenses indicate an ongoing process of being conformed, not a once for all time irreversible perfect conformity to Christ's body.
IMHO... You are not going to reach anyone that way.
 

Genez

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I remember this being present in a relatively recent thread, concerning the separation of Jesus and I commented on the peculiarity of, and the possibility, that his agony in praying in the garden of Gethsemane may have illustrated a beginning of his process in dying. And, noting that Jesus held onto His faith even after crying out, "...why have you forsaken me?" I took Jesus' very next sentiment, "Into Your hands, I commend My spirit" as an expression of faith. And, if Jesus died spiritually before he died then, He would have entirely arrived at becoming the natural man and, according to certain doctrines, wouldn't it have been impossible for Him to then have exercised any faith at all?
I remember at least a similar point come up in and commented
Keep this in mind...

John 19:30 -
When did Jesus proclaim Tetelestai? IT IS FINISHED! PAID IN FULL!

Our salvation from sin was finished BEFORE he died physically!

Perhaps @PaulThomson will provide us with the Greek tense to show us that when Jesus said 'Tetelestai', that Jesus was saying that it was finished already, and was to continue to be finished for forever.



Grace and peace .........
 

PaulThomson

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I remember this being present in a relatively recent thread, concerning the separation of Jesus and I commented on the peculiarity of, and the possibility, that his agony in praying in the garden of Gethsemane may have illustrated a beginning of his process in dying. And, noting that Jesus held onto His faith even after crying out, "...why have you forsaken me?" I took Jesus' very next sentiment, "Into Your hands, I commend My spirit" as an expression of faith. And, if Jesus died spiritually before he died then, He would have entirely arrived at becoming the natural man and, according to certain doctrines, wouldn't it have been impossible for Him to then have exercised any faith at all?
I remember at least a similar point come up in and commented
If separation from God is such an awful terrifying experience, one could ask why all men are not experiencing this terror continually from birth, if they are conceived and born and live in this state until they put faith in Christ.

This is just another detail mitigating against the theory that through Adam's sin every human became completely alienated from God from conception.
 

PaulThomson

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IMHO... You are not going to reach anyone that way.
IMHO almost no one is going to reach anyone in these forums, because most have their minds made up and are here to defend their settled opinion. However, I do have hopes of engaging with the few others who are here to learn, even if that means changing our minds on things we have taken for granted for a long time.

How has you MO been working for you reaching others?
 

Mem

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If separation from God is such an awful terrifying experience, one could ask why all men are not experiencing this terror continually from birth, if they are conceived and born and live in this state until they put faith in Christ.

This is just another detail mitigating against the theory that through Adam's sin every human became completely alienated from God from conception.
Good point, definitely a glitch to workout in that theory. In another thread, I had made a comment about the different results obtained by reasoning deductively compared to inductively, but I am confident that God's word can be understood rightly if it works out both forwards and backwards.
Btw, I logged the info you provided into my address book. Thanks!
 
Dec 2, 2024
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Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, on the basis of which (eph' hOi) all have sinned:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

If we assume that original sin is a thing, then Romans 5:13-14 would seem to be a lie. Original sin asserts that sin (the sin of Adam) is imputed to all, including those who lived between Adam and Moses. But Rom. 5:13-15 tells us that sin was not being imputed to anyone when there was no law, nevertheless all died when there was no law. So, the cause of their deaths cannot have been imputed sin, whether the sin of Adam or the sin/s of the person dying.
This text says that death for all Adam's progeny was imposed as a consequence of Adam's sin. It does not say Adam's sin was imputed to his progeny.

What does Paul mean by "had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's sin? He means that they had not knowingly broken a law specifically given to them by God. And there were many such sinners before the law: sinners who acted without faith in God, but did not know of the specific divine expectations they were transgressing against.
Adam is a type of Christ, in that the consequence of Adam's sin (death/mortality/limited life spans) was placed upon all his progeny without their being imputed with Adam's own sin; and the consequences of Jesus' righteousness, His resurrection from the dead , is placed on all His progeny (believers), or perhaps all His siblings (mankind) without His own righteousness being imputed to us/them.


So how do others deal with Romans 5:13-15?

15 And the LORD God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


A world in which there is KNOWLEDGE of both good and evil is what we are born into. A world in which we are to make a choice. That is the sin of the world

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live, like in Deuteronomy 30


Those who say babies who die do ANYTHING had better be able to 'show it written' and if they can't be rebuked for making void the words of God with the wisdom of man. We have to remember MANY antichrists are running about, claiming things that are not written as if they were.

What we read is what we should teach, preach discuss...

He is the Rock, His work is perfect: for all His ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and Righteous is He as we read in Deut 32

or

For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, saith the LORD as found in Isaiah 55:8



Romans 5 assures us that babies born in flesh and blood bodies, ONLY DIE because of the state of the world they are born into, not because of ANYTHING they themselves have done aka the DEATH they have is the sin of the world and it is only the first death, the death of the first body and BEING WITHOUT ANY SIN OF THEIR OWN, are resurrected in the 2nd body...


(and if the churches taught the truth of

3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.


there would be no questions as to the 'whys' of it all and peace on earth could be found by those who needed it most in those times)
 
Mar 8, 2025
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I agree. The physical aspect was a cake walk compared to being separated from the Father. Not to deter from the physical aspect of it, but the spiritual death was agonizing.....As humans, we naturally see and focus the horrible physical aspect of the Cross.......But it was the Spiritual that was AGONIZING for Christ.
Is sin a metaphysical essence or substance that can be "poured" into someone's PHYSICAL body. The Bible says
"3And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as Christ is pure. 4Everyone who practices sin practices lawlessness as well. Indeed, sin is lawlessness. 5 But you know that Christ appeared to take away sins, and in Him there is no sin.
(1 John 3:3-4)
God has no sin to "pour in anyone" nor would He since sin is contrary to His nature. Sin is disobedience which has its origin in the will. How would GOD go about imposing the properties of sin on a person unless He Himself became the soul's polluter and the author of our EVIL thoughts and desires but the Bible says: 13When tempted, no one should say, God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone. 14But each one is tempted when by his own evil desires he is lured away and enticed.… (James 1:13)

I think the Ransom Model of the Atonement more fits the situation since
a. It was the earliest model
b. In it God does not kill the Son but He allows the Devil to do it (by removing the protection that had kept Jesus from being killed in His Earthly life
d. Jesus was overwhelmed with the evil SATAN tortured him with on the cross while the Father withdrew Himself
e. Many righteous men in their worst times have felt God (or rather the CONSCIOUSNESS) of God withdraw
f. In fact, the worst part of any temptation is to not feel the Presence but rather the Evil One
g. I say this because the hypostatic union between Father and Son cannot be broken
 

Kroogz

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Dec 5, 2023
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Is sin a metaphysical essence or substance that can be "poured" into someone's PHYSICAL body. The Bible says
"3And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as Christ is pure. 4Everyone who practices sin practices lawlessness as well. Indeed, sin is lawlessness. 5 But you know that Christ appeared to take away sins, and in Him there is no sin.
(1 John 3:3-4)
God has no sin to "pour in anyone" nor would He since sin is contrary to His nature. Sin is disobedience which has its origin in the will. How would GOD go about imposing the properties of sin on a person unless He Himself became the soul's polluter and the author of our EVIL thoughts and desires but the Bible says: 13When tempted, no one should say, God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone. 14But each one is tempted when by his own evil desires he is lured away and enticed.… (James 1:13)

I think the Ransom Model of the Atonement more fits the situation since
a. It was the earliest model
b. In it God does not kill the Son but He allows the Devil to do it (by removing the protection that had kept Jesus from being killed in His Earthly life
d. Jesus was overwhelmed with the evil SATAN tortured him with on the cross while the Father withdrew Himself
e. Many righteous men in their worst times have felt God (or rather the CONSCIOUSNESS) of God withdraw
f. In fact, the worst part of any temptation is to not feel the Presence but rather the Evil One
g. I say this because the hypostatic union between Father and Son cannot be broken
Disagree whole heartily.

The Lord Jesus Christ gave up His spirit and last breath......WILLINGLY. Satan, or whatever his name is.......had absolutely no power over the Lord Jesus Christ.

The Lord Jesus Christ was the strongest man who ever lived. He had no sin nature and never sinned. He was always in fellowship with the Father. He was not some weak man who "Barely" carried His cross. He was beaten worse than any man and carried His Cross with a couple of fingers and never lost focus of the lost He was dying for.
 
Mar 8, 2025
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The one thing that leads me to speculate this way (rather than saying the Father tortured him to deatha) is the fact that the Bible itself says explicitly that the DEVIL was one who did it though the Father ALLOWED it. When Jesus agony was ended "received His spirit" the Father was there to receive His spirit

Here is more direct proof that the Devil killed Jesus. When the band of soldiers and priests were on their way to arrest Him He saw it and said: …29And now I have told you before it happens, so that when it does happen, you will believe. …29And now I have told you before it happens, so that when it does happen, you will believe. 30I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming, and he has no claim on Me. 31But I do exactly what the Father has commanded Me, so that the world may know that I love the Father. Get up! Let us go on from here.…(John 14:29-30)

The command of the Father was not to evade or ellude them but to surrender Himself to their blood lust Paul adds this:
…7No, we speak of the mysterious and hidden wisdom of God, which He destined for our glory before time began. 8None of the rulers of this age understood it. For if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
(1 Corinthians 2:7-8)
 
Mar 8, 2025
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Disagree whole heartily.

The Lord Jesus Christ gave up His spirit and last breath......WILLINGLY. Satan, or whatever his name is.......had absolutely no power over the Lord Jesus Christ.

The Lord Jesus Christ was the strongest man who ever lived. He had no sin nature and never sinned. He was always in fellowship with the Father. He was not some weak man who "Barely" carried His cross. He was beaten worse than any man and carried His Cross with a couple of fingers and never lost focus of the lost He was dying for.
Jesus said …17The reason the Father loves Me is that I lay down My life in order to take it up again. 18No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of My own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from My Father.”
(John 10:17-18)
He could have stopped the whole ordeal but if He had the sacrifice would not have been completed according to plan. He was never helpless.
53 Are you not aware that I can call on My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen this way?”… (Matthew 26:53)

His death had the APPEARANCE of defeat and weakness which neither Satan nor his demons nor even His disciples could see through. However, in a few days He had acquired power over death itself.
14having canceled the debt ascribed to us in the decrees that stood against us. He took it away, nailing it to the cross! 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. (Colossians 2:14-15)
 

Kroogz

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Dec 5, 2023
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The one thing that leads me to speculate this way (rather than saying the Father tortured him to deatha) is the fact that the Bible itself says explicitly that the DEVIL was one who did it though the Father ALLOWED it. When Jesus agony was ended "received His spirit" the Father was there to receive His spirit

Here is more direct proof that the Devil killed Jesus. When the band of soldiers and priests were on their way to arrest Him He saw it and said: …29And now I have told you before it happens, so that when it does happen, you will believe. …29And now I have told you before it happens, so that when it does happen, you will believe. 30I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming, and he has no claim on Me. 31But I do exactly what the Father has commanded Me, so that the world may know that I love the Father. Get up! Let us go on from here.…(John 14:29-30)

The command of the Father was not to evade or ellude them but to surrender Himself to their blood lust Paul adds this:
…7No, we speak of the mysterious and hidden wisdom of God, which He destined for our glory before time began. 8None of the rulers of this age understood it. For if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
(1 Corinthians 2:7-8)
Not one created entity killed the Lord Jesus Christ. We all crucified Him..... He willingly took His last breath and gave up His Spirit. He Died for us. He was not killed for us.