If sin is not imputed without the law, how can some claim that babies and children die because Adam's sin is imputed to them?
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So the mortal putting on immortality is what then, a ruse, conditional immortality? (which, as I'm sure you know, is an oxymoron)
1 Corinthians 15:53
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
I can't see how the tree of life will be necessary unless one is equating it as symbolic of the power of God.
I can agree that we will always live by the grace of God whether in the here and now or whether in the eternal state and God will continue to uphold the new heavens and earth just as He upholds this one (Heb.1:3), but I cannot see how or why, we as creatures, will need to rely on another created thing to live eternally.
1 Corinthians 15:53
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
I can't see how the tree of life will be necessary unless one is equating it as symbolic of the power of God.
I can agree that we will always live by the grace of God whether in the here and now or whether in the eternal state and God will continue to uphold the new heavens and earth just as He upholds this one (Heb.1:3), but I cannot see how or why, we as creatures, will need to rely on another created thing to live eternally.
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You know the Hebrew?
Did the Lord (in the Hebrew) simply ask them, "who told you, you are naked?"
Genesis 3:11
My pastor, who was a Hebrew scholar, translated it...
If correct?
That might explain perfectly, why they covered themselves with fig leaves.
Did the Lord (in the Hebrew) simply ask them, "who told you, you are naked?"
Genesis 3:11
My pastor, who was a Hebrew scholar, translated it...
"And He said, Who *denounced* you that you are naked?
If correct?
That might explain perfectly, why they covered themselves with fig leaves.
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Oh, were you trying to flesh out an idea with corpses from thousands of years ago? Ah, yes, I suppose
since I have some on ignore I may have missed some of that absurd thought process. But I did not
miss the lack of grace in your post to me, while you are busy being your dishonest hypocritical self.
since I have some on ignore I may have missed some of that absurd thought process. But I did not
miss the lack of grace in your post to me, while you are busy being your dishonest hypocritical self.
I think the fact that in Revelation overcomers are promised to start eating again from the tree of life is evidence that the tree of life is associated both in Eden and in paradise with the maintenance of endless life. The fact that the tree of life is provided by God in the new heaven and the new earth 1000 years after the resurrection, which is when many assume the saints become perpetually immortal, is evidence that access to and eating from the tree of life was necessary for Adam's continuing life even before he sinned.
Why would the promise of eating from the tree of life have any pull power to people who are already permanently immortal?
Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Why would the promise of eating from the tree of life have any pull power to people who are already permanently immortal?
Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
sawdust said:
How does that work in comparison to the change happening in a twinkling of an eye? That would have to be a very long "eye twink".
And if Jesus' body is not being upheld by the power of God, then by what mechanism is His body gloriously immortal?
Phl 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
It seems a stretch to assert that having a body fashioned like (summorphon) His glorious body means the body must be exactly the same kind of body with exactly the same abilities in every respect. Will we all have similar wounds in hands and feet and side? Will we all be able to appear and disappear at will? Will our glorious bodies be vessels containing omnipotence at our command, as His is?
Do you two apply the same criteria to Jesus partaking of flesh and blood. Do you believe we have corrupt flesh and Jesus also partook of corrupt flesh?
Heb 2:14 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil.
How does that work in comparison to the change happening in a twinkling of an eye? That would have to be a very long "eye twink".
And if Jesus' body is not being upheld by the power of God, then by what mechanism is His body gloriously immortal?
Phl 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
It seems a stretch to assert that having a body fashioned like (summorphon) His glorious body means the body must be exactly the same kind of body with exactly the same abilities in every respect. Will we all have similar wounds in hands and feet and side? Will we all be able to appear and disappear at will? Will our glorious bodies be vessels containing omnipotence at our command, as His is?
Do you two apply the same criteria to Jesus partaking of flesh and blood. Do you believe we have corrupt flesh and Jesus also partook of corrupt flesh?
Heb 2:14 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil.
You distorted it when you took it too far.
As far as our resurrection body goes?
I have news for you.
It will be just like his own -in substance!
For we are the Bride of Christ!
We will be bone of his bones, and flesh of His everlasting glorious flesh.
Likewise... Eve had different physical attributes to Adam.
But her flesh and bones were of identical substance.
On the other hand...
The powers we will have will not be equal to his. Yet, that is not the physical body issue.
We will share in His Divine power, but never possess all the Deity as He now does.
As far as our resurrection body goes?
I have news for you.
It will be just like his own -in substance!
For we are the Bride of Christ!
We will be bone of his bones, and flesh of His everlasting glorious flesh.
Likewise... Eve had different physical attributes to Adam.
But her flesh and bones were of identical substance.
On the other hand...
The powers we will have will not be equal to his. Yet, that is not the physical body issue.
We will share in His Divine power, but never possess all the Deity as He now does.
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NaGaD -
- Meaning: "Nagad" is a primitive root, meaning "to front," or "stand boldly out opposite [an audience]" which implies "to manifest" or "to announce" or "to report" or "to declare".
- The hiphil verb form is causative. It expresses the idea of causing the action, not of doing the action oneself. So the causative of "to kill" would be "to cause the death of someone through a third party".
- Hence, in this verse, God is asking "who caused you to announce boldly to me that you are naked?"
- Denounce might be a fair translation of NaGaD when it describes a person giving a negative report about someone or something because of some third party influence.
- Your pastor's translation does not communicate the hiphil/causative aspect of the verb form. And in this case, "Who caused you to denounce that you are naked?" would not seem to make sense.
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Why, says you, we are going to have chromosomes?
Our body will be of Heaven. Not the earth.
And, the church consists of two kinds of souls.
For it was the souls that were created male and female.
Created before bodies were provided.
The bodies were not created - bara - out from nothing.
The souls were created that way!
Our body will be of Heaven. Not the earth.
And, the church consists of two kinds of souls.
For it was the souls that were created male and female.
Created before bodies were provided.
So God created (bara) mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created (bara) them;
male and female he created them." Genesis 1:27
The bodies were not created - bara - out from nothing.
The souls were created that way!
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So, when it suits the defence of your theology, our bodies must be exactly like Jesus' glorified body in all the ways that are needed to make your theology necessary; but when it suits the defence of your theology, our bodies are not exactly like Jesus' glorious body in the ways that are needed to make your theology viable.
The term "confirmation bias" comes to mind.
What are the genuine scope and limits of saying that X is like or the same as Y? Must it imply that X is a clone of Y? Or does it mean that X and Y share some features. We are made in God's image and after His likeness. We are like God in some aspects, but we are not clones of God in very respect.
You seem to be forcing the boundaries of the biblical language in order to make your concept of our glorification sound compelling.
It is possible for our resurrection bodies to be fashioned like Jesus glorious body, but for us to need to ingest at intervals the healing compounds in the fruit and leaves of the tree of life to rejuvenate our bodies, while Jesus can rejuvenate His own body by simply speaking to it.
I can honestly say that an automatic Ford Laser has a body like the manual Ford Laser, while it also being true that one changes gears differently when driving an automatic that one does when driving a manual.
The term "confirmation bias" comes to mind.
What are the genuine scope and limits of saying that X is like or the same as Y? Must it imply that X is a clone of Y? Or does it mean that X and Y share some features. We are made in God's image and after His likeness. We are like God in some aspects, but we are not clones of God in very respect.
You seem to be forcing the boundaries of the biblical language in order to make your concept of our glorification sound compelling.
It is possible for our resurrection bodies to be fashioned like Jesus glorious body, but for us to need to ingest at intervals the healing compounds in the fruit and leaves of the tree of life to rejuvenate our bodies, while Jesus can rejuvenate His own body by simply speaking to it.
I can honestly say that an automatic Ford Laser has a body like the manual Ford Laser, while it also being true that one changes gears differently when driving an automatic that one does when driving a manual.
Unlike you, The apostle Paul and I are not expecting to be unclothed of our physical bodies, but that our physical body will be clothed upon with our heavenly body.
2Co 5:4
For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
Both the seed and the plant are physical, but the glory of the physical seed is different from the glory of the physical plant that the seed becomes.
1 Cor. 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. [The physical body] is sown in corruption; [the physical body] is raised in incorruption:
43 [The physical body] is sown in dishonour; [the physical body] is raised in glory: [the physical body] is sown in weakness; [the physical body] is raised in power:
44 [The physical body] is sown a natural [physical] body; [The physical body] is raised a spiritual [physical] body. There is a natural [physical] body, and there is a spiritual [physical] body.
2Co 5:4
For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
Both the seed and the plant are physical, but the glory of the physical seed is different from the glory of the physical plant that the seed becomes.
1 Cor. 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. [The physical body] is sown in corruption; [the physical body] is raised in incorruption:
43 [The physical body] is sown in dishonour; [the physical body] is raised in glory: [the physical body] is sown in weakness; [the physical body] is raised in power:
44 [The physical body] is sown a natural [physical] body; [The physical body] is raised a spiritual [physical] body. There is a natural [physical] body, and there is a spiritual [physical] body.