If sin is not imputed without the law, how can some claim that babies and children die because Adam's sin is imputed to them?
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Mankind began with very healthy genes from the hand of God.
But, eventually.... man's physical state degenerated over time.
Once degenerated physically, the Tree of Life could only lock one into whatever stage of degeneracy one had become.
And? Being degenerated physically?
If not able to die?
Jesus would not have been able to redeem them.
Gal 2:20
You can't crucify what can not die.
No man took away the physical life of Jesus.
For, He voluntarily exhaled his breath and gave up his physical life.
Luke 23:46
But, eventually.... man's physical state degenerated over time.
Once degenerated physically, the Tree of Life could only lock one into whatever stage of degeneracy one had become.
And? Being degenerated physically?
If not able to die?
Jesus would not have been able to redeem them.
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.
The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me
and gave himself for me."
Gal 2:20
You can't crucify what can not die.
No man took away the physical life of Jesus.
For, He voluntarily exhaled his breath and gave up his physical life.
Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.
” When he had said this, he breathed his last.
Luke 23:46
I'm no Hebrew scholar but I see only death mentioned once in Hezekiah's case but twice in regard to Adam. (Strong's 4191)
https://biblehub.com/text/2_kings/20-1.htm
https://biblehub.com/text/genesis/2-17.htm
https://biblehub.com/text/2_kings/20-1.htm
https://biblehub.com/text/genesis/2-17.htm
Good catch, sawdust. I commend you for looking it up and checking. I was citing the wrong event from memory without looking it up to check. It was not Hezekiah.
However, there are a bunch of places that the same expression is used. Gen, 20:7; Num. 26:65, judges 13:22; 1 Sam, 14:39, 44; I Sam. 20:31; I Sam. 22:16; 2 Sam 12:5, 14; 1 Kings 2:37, 42; 2 Kings 1:4, 6, 16; 2 Kings 8:10; Jer. 26:8; Ez. 3:18; Ez. 18:13; Ez. 33:8. 14.
Eze 33:14 Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;
Eze 33:15 If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Eze 33:16 None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.
The phrase "he shall surely die" (Sometimes Qal imperfective + infinitive absolute; or sometimes infinitive absolute + Qal imperfective) does not mean "he shall surely die", because the man we are told would surely die, can become one who we are told will surely live. And even those who will surely live, eventually die. "To die you/he will be dying" and "you/he will be dying to die" seems to me to be expressing a trajectory toward a premature physical death; and "to live you will be iving" and "you will be living to live" indicates a trajectory toward an extended life. People can flip from one to the other. Adam was told that on the day he ate, he would put himself on a trajectory toward a premature death.
However, there are a bunch of places that the same expression is used. Gen, 20:7; Num. 26:65, judges 13:22; 1 Sam, 14:39, 44; I Sam. 20:31; I Sam. 22:16; 2 Sam 12:5, 14; 1 Kings 2:37, 42; 2 Kings 1:4, 6, 16; 2 Kings 8:10; Jer. 26:8; Ez. 3:18; Ez. 18:13; Ez. 33:8. 14.
Eze 33:14 Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;
Eze 33:15 If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Eze 33:16 None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.
The phrase "he shall surely die" (Sometimes Qal imperfective + infinitive absolute; or sometimes infinitive absolute + Qal imperfective) does not mean "he shall surely die", because the man we are told would surely die, can become one who we are told will surely live. And even those who will surely live, eventually die. "To die you/he will be dying" and "you/he will be dying to die" seems to me to be expressing a trajectory toward a premature physical death; and "to live you will be iving" and "you will be living to live" indicates a trajectory toward an extended life. People can flip from one to the other. Adam was told that on the day he ate, he would put himself on a trajectory toward a premature death.
It does not say "visiting the iniquity of a father upon his childunto the third and the fourth generatio,
these are people who had others sin imputes upon them before the gospel came forth now New Testament promise of a personal nature to each no longer would the sins of the fathers be taken out upon the sons but everyone’s own sin is the issue
“Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live. The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.”
Ezekiel 18:19-22
in the Old Testament what your quoting is telling us that before the law came to make sin known it wasn’t inputed to anyone
You just left out the prior sentance that sets that up
“(for until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, ( only until Moses came and gave the law then sin could be imputed upon each sinner ) even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, ( this ain’t sayong adams sin was imputes to anyone at all it’s explaining how death came into the world which is the prior sentence ) who is the figure of him that was to come.”
Romans 5:13-14 KJV
“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; ( Adam intriduved the world to sin and death )
and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:”( we all die because like Adam we sin too )
Romans 5:12 KJV
Our own sin is the only issue we have if everyone I o ow and all my reletively sinned that’s not going to judge me but my own actions and words will independent of anyone else even Adam because of Christ and the gospel
Sinners who sin need remission of sins[/QUOTE]
Already covered this. I cannot force you to take the care to understand what I write.
these are people who had others sin imputes upon them before the gospel came forth now New Testament promise of a personal nature to each no longer would the sins of the fathers be taken out upon the sons but everyone’s own sin is the issue
“Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live. The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.”
Ezekiel 18:19-22
in the Old Testament what your quoting is telling us that before the law came to make sin known it wasn’t inputed to anyone
You just left out the prior sentance that sets that up
“(for until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, ( only until Moses came and gave the law then sin could be imputed upon each sinner ) even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, ( this ain’t sayong adams sin was imputes to anyone at all it’s explaining how death came into the world which is the prior sentence ) who is the figure of him that was to come.”
Romans 5:13-14 KJV
“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; ( Adam intriduved the world to sin and death )
and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:”( we all die because like Adam we sin too )
Romans 5:12 KJV
Our own sin is the only issue we have if everyone I o ow and all my reletively sinned that’s not going to judge me but my own actions and words will independent of anyone else even Adam because of Christ and the gospel
Sinners who sin need remission of sins[/QUOTE]
Already covered this. I cannot force you to take the care to understand what I write.
[/QUOTE]
Already covered this. I cannot force you to take the care to understand what I write.[/QUOTE]
you didn’t write anything to me you wuoted part of a chapter where Paul is explaining how sinn and death came into the world. So I figured that’s what you wanted to talk about …
“(for until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.”
Romans 5:13-14 KJV
I had just responded to what you quoted nothing you wrote.
What I had said is look at the first sentence that you had quoted to me
“sin is not imputed when there is no law. “
( Then look here in what you quoted to me )
“Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned”
ages not saying adams sin was imputed he’s saying it wasn’t imputed before the law was given. And then he says and even though sin wasn’t imputed upon them then death still reigned from Adam to Moses when the law came 430 years after Abraham’s promise of Christ
“It does not say "visiting the iniquity of a father upon his childunto the third and the fourth generation”
It doesn’t say this ?
“thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;”
Exodus 20:5 KJV
I’m not clear on your position there ot definately says that . he told israel that repeatedly even from the giving of the law.
“And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them. I am the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. Thou shalt have none other gods before me. Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth: thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,
and shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.”
Deuteronomy 5:1, 6-10 KJV
What I had been saying was the New Testament isn’t like the law . If our ancestors in the nt even our parents sinned God will not hold it against us imputing thier iniquity upon thier offspring. But it’s when we ourselves sin that it gets imputed.
The law brought a lot of wrath against Israel when they defiles it those generational curses are part of it
It’s not that way now because we have a personal relationship with God by the spirit of Christ in us we’re only accountable for what we do and say what Adam did means nothing
Already covered this. I cannot force you to take the care to understand what I write.[/QUOTE]
you didn’t write anything to me you wuoted part of a chapter where Paul is explaining how sinn and death came into the world. So I figured that’s what you wanted to talk about …
“(for until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.”
Romans 5:13-14 KJV
I had just responded to what you quoted nothing you wrote.
What I had said is look at the first sentence that you had quoted to me
“sin is not imputed when there is no law. “
( Then look here in what you quoted to me )
“Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned”
ages not saying adams sin was imputed he’s saying it wasn’t imputed before the law was given. And then he says and even though sin wasn’t imputed upon them then death still reigned from Adam to Moses when the law came 430 years after Abraham’s promise of Christ
“It does not say "visiting the iniquity of a father upon his childunto the third and the fourth generation”
It doesn’t say this ?
“thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;”
Exodus 20:5 KJV
I’m not clear on your position there ot definately says that . he told israel that repeatedly even from the giving of the law.
“And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them. I am the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. Thou shalt have none other gods before me. Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth: thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,
and shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.”
Deuteronomy 5:1, 6-10 KJV
What I had been saying was the New Testament isn’t like the law . If our ancestors in the nt even our parents sinned God will not hold it against us imputing thier iniquity upon thier offspring. But it’s when we ourselves sin that it gets imputed.
The law brought a lot of wrath against Israel when they defiles it those generational curses are part of it
It’s not that way now because we have a personal relationship with God by the spirit of Christ in us we’re only accountable for what we do and say what Adam did means nothing
But all, at one time or another, feared death because it was in the world, and because of the fear of death many are... something something something!
Because we were subjected to death, God sent Jesus, subjecting Jesus to death (as much as he submitted Himself to being subjected to death) to deliver us from death, and sin because, through Him we no longer need to fear, not death, nor anything, because He has prevailed in subjecting everything to Him.
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Because we were subjected to death, God sent Jesus, subjecting Jesus to death (as much as he submitted Himself to being subjected to death) to deliver us from death, and sin because, through Him we no longer need to fear, not death, nor anything, because He has prevailed in subjecting everything to Him.
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
It does not say "visiting the iniquity of a father upon his child unto the third and the fourth generatio,n." It is not an individual transfer if sins in mind here, but a natuonal generational accumulation of sins if the next generation walks in the sins of the previous ones.
This is the old and new testament way of the Lord regarding individuals. It appleid in the old testament as well.
Right. So, before Moses, no one, apart from Adam and Eve, became mortal as a result of having sin, either their own of Adams', imputed to them.
I agree that "this ain’t saying Adams sin was imputed to anyone at all. It’s explaining how death came into the world, which is the prior sentence [of blanket mortality].
Romans 5:13-14 KJV
“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; ( Adam intriduved the world to sin and death )
and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:”( we all die because like Adam we sin too )
Romans 5:12 KJV
Our own sin is the only issue we have if everyone I o ow and all my reletively sinned that’s not going to judge me but my own actions and words will independent of anyone else even Adam because of Christ and the gospel
Sinners who sin need remission of sins[/QUOTE]
This is the old and new testament way of the Lord regarding individuals. It appleid in the old testament as well.
Right. So, before Moses, no one, apart from Adam and Eve, became mortal as a result of having sin, either their own of Adams', imputed to them.
I agree that "this ain’t saying Adams sin was imputed to anyone at all. It’s explaining how death came into the world, which is the prior sentence [of blanket mortality].
Romans 5:13-14 KJV
“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; ( Adam intriduved the world to sin and death )
and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:”( we all die because like Adam we sin too )
Romans 5:12 KJV
Our own sin is the only issue we have if everyone I o ow and all my reletively sinned that’s not going to judge me but my own actions and words will independent of anyone else even Adam because of Christ and the gospel
Sinners who sin need remission of sins[/QUOTE]
Ok. I will look those passages up but one thing to clarify. Do you think Adam would have died even if he didn't sin? That is, if he failed to eat from the tree of life alone, he still would have died?
Ok, but how is that not an imputation of Adam's sin? Have I misunderstood you? I was under the impression you believed Adam's sin has not been imputed to his offspring.
It should be noted, I don't believe we are born morally corrupt (we are born amoral) but rather physically corrupt and that corruption is what prevents God "breathing" spiritual life into us which is why we are cut off from God. It's the combination of being non-spiritual (no capacity to know God) and having a self serving corruption working in our bodies (an instinctive response to preserve self) that causes our inevitable moral corruption. Only the grace and mercy of God short circuits that decline and sets us on a new path.
Ok, but how is that not an imputation of Adam's sin? Have I misunderstood you? I was under the impression you believed Adam's sin has not been imputed to his offspring.
It should be noted, I don't believe we are born morally corrupt (we are born amoral) but rather physically corrupt and that corruption is what prevents God "breathing" spiritual life into us which is why we are cut off from God. It's the combination of being non-spiritual (no capacity to know God) and having a self serving corruption working in our bodies (an instinctive response to preserve self) that causes our inevitable moral corruption. Only the grace and mercy of God short circuits that decline and sets us on a new path.
Quite often missed...
When God began pouring our sins upon his body... God the Father and Holy Spirit had to forsake Him.
Not only physical death, did He experience.
For while He was bearing our sins? He experienced spiritual death.
And, note!
It was his spiritual death that He agonized over, not His physical death.
Points to ponder.
When God began pouring our sins upon his body... God the Father and Holy Spirit had to forsake Him.
About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?”
(which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”). Matthew 27:46
Not only physical death, did He experience.
For while He was bearing our sins? He experienced spiritual death.
And, note!
It was his spiritual death that He agonized over, not His physical death.
Points to ponder.
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I agree. The physical aspect was a cake walk compared to being separated from the Father. Not to deter from the physical aspect of it, but the spiritual death was agonizing.....As humans, we naturally see and focus the horrible physical aspect of the Cross.......But it was the Spiritual that was AGONIZING for Christ.
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Even in the new heaven and the new earth man is not physically immortal, but has free access to the tree of life for healing that continuously imparts a form of maintained immortality.
Rev 22:2
In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Rev 2:7
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Rev 22:14
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Yes, I think Adam would have died physically, if he had not kept eating from the tree of life to reboot his physical and genetic system as it aged.
Gen 3:22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become (Qal perfective) as one of us, to know (qal infininitive construct) good and evil: and now, lest he keep on putting forth (Qal imperfect) his hand, and-take (Qal waw-consecutive) also of the tree of life, and keep on eating (Qal waw-consecutive), and keep on living (Qal waw-consecutive) into an age/indefinitely ('L-oLaM).
I do not believe babies' spirits or bodies are corrupted at conception and at birth due to the effects of Adam's sin per se. I believe that babies are born in the same innocent state as Adam was made in, with the same propensity to wear out physically that access to the tree of life healed, and with the same propensity to be corrupted spiritually by temptations and lies so as to distrust God.
The consequences of Adam's sin stated in Genesis have become the burden of every human being. Spiritual death, as many imagine it, was not mentioned as a consequence of Adam's sin. Prohibition from the tree of life was a consequence, leading to inevitable death. Having to work for food by the sweat of his brow was mentioned as a consequence. Pain in child-birth was mentioned as a consequence. Spiritual death was not mentioned as an automatic consequence upon all genetic descendants. God communicated with Cain and Cain understood God . Enoch walked with God. The idea that spiritual death was inherited by all Adam's descendants, that we are born non-spiritual, is not taught in scripture as far as I can see. it is a misunderstanding of scripture begun with Augustine, because of his ignorance of Greek and his relying upon a Latin translation of the Greek text of Romans 5:12, and then eisegeted back into other texts to twist those to post hoc justify agreeing with Augustine's error.
Rev 22:2
In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Rev 2:7
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Rev 22:14
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Yes, I think Adam would have died physically, if he had not kept eating from the tree of life to reboot his physical and genetic system as it aged.
Gen 3:22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become (Qal perfective) as one of us, to know (qal infininitive construct) good and evil: and now, lest he keep on putting forth (Qal imperfect) his hand, and-take (Qal waw-consecutive) also of the tree of life, and keep on eating (Qal waw-consecutive), and keep on living (Qal waw-consecutive) into an age/indefinitely ('L-oLaM).
I do not believe babies' spirits or bodies are corrupted at conception and at birth due to the effects of Adam's sin per se. I believe that babies are born in the same innocent state as Adam was made in, with the same propensity to wear out physically that access to the tree of life healed, and with the same propensity to be corrupted spiritually by temptations and lies so as to distrust God.
The consequences of Adam's sin stated in Genesis have become the burden of every human being. Spiritual death, as many imagine it, was not mentioned as a consequence of Adam's sin. Prohibition from the tree of life was a consequence, leading to inevitable death. Having to work for food by the sweat of his brow was mentioned as a consequence. Pain in child-birth was mentioned as a consequence. Spiritual death was not mentioned as an automatic consequence upon all genetic descendants. God communicated with Cain and Cain understood God . Enoch walked with God. The idea that spiritual death was inherited by all Adam's descendants, that we are born non-spiritual, is not taught in scripture as far as I can see. it is a misunderstanding of scripture begun with Augustine, because of his ignorance of Greek and his relying upon a Latin translation of the Greek text of Romans 5:12, and then eisegeted back into other texts to twist those to post hoc justify agreeing with Augustine's error.