If sin is not imputed without the law, how can some claim that babies and children die because Adam's sin is imputed to them?

[studentoftheword]

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If sin is not imputed without the law, how can some claim that babies and children die because Adam's sin is imputed to them?
Thread starterPaulThomson

This statement here


babies and children die because Adam's sin is imputed to them?

It is not Adam's SIN that is passed on to us in the Womb -------

Babies and Small Children have no Clue about what Sin is Nor are they capable of knowing the Spiritual Consequences of committing Sin ------ therefore God gives babies and small children a GRACE PERIOD ---there is an Age of Accountability given to children ----Jesus said Bring the INNOCENT CHILDREN to me so I can Bless them --- I explain more about this below -------

Scripture clearly tells us that every human is responsible for committing their own SIN and death is the result ----

Deuteronomy 24 verse 16 AMPC----comes under the various Laws that God has imputed on His Jewish Nation

READ ALL for YOURSELVES --I am just posting a few before Verse 16 ---and check out Ezekiel 18:20

13 You shall surely restore to him the pledge at sunset, that he may sleep in his garment and bless you; and it shall be credited to you as righteousness (rightness and justice) before the Lord your God.

14 You shall not oppress or extort from a hired servant who is poor and needy, whether he is of your brethren or of your strangers and sojourners who are in your land inside your towns.

15 You shall give him his hire on the day he earns it before the sun goes down, for he is poor, and sets his heart upon it; lest he cry against you to the Lord, and it be sin to you.

16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers; only for his own sin shall anyone be put to death.


I say =====So what is Passed on through Adam's rebellion ------IT IS INIQUITY ------which is a Crocked Nature ------A Nature TO SIN ---that is passed on from Adam ---not his Sin

Strong's Lexicon
avon: Iniquity
Word Origin: Derived from the root עָוָה (avah), meaning "to bend," "to twist," or "to distort."

I say -----so our Nature when we are born is Corrupt ---it is bent out shape ====it goes against God's Nature -----

Babies and Children are born with this Nature to sin ----Babies and Children are very Selfish in nature---and they want what they want and they want it now and don't want to share and are possessive -----but they have no idea why they are like this ----

and until the really understand Good from Evil and the Spiritual consequences of acting on sin God gives them a Grace period of NOT IMPUTING SIN to their account ------

https://www.christianity.com/wiki/sin/what-is-iniquity-meaning-and-importance-in-the-bible.html
Understanding the Essence of Iniquity

In the sacred scriptures, the term "iniquity" emerges as a profound descriptor of the corrupt and immoral nature inherent in human character.
Unlike "sin," which encompasses the actions themselves, "iniquity" delves into the very essence of the action, portraying it as a distinctive character trait.

As expressed in Psalm 51:5, "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." This article delves into the multifaceted dimensions of iniquity, its biblical implications, and the critical distinctions between iniquity, sin, and transgression.

Definition of Iniquity
Iniquity, as articulated in the Bible, encapsulates the fallen nature of humanity, describing a disposition that is inherently wicked or immoral. It's not merely an action but the character of that action, as emphasized in Psalms 32:5 with the phrase "the iniquity of my sin."

Cain murdered Able ----but there was no law against Murder so Cain got punished by God for killing Able but Sin was not imputed on him --------God said SIN IS CROUCHING AT YOUR DOOR ------

Understanding what it means to Sin -----TO SIN ----you need some kind of action ----you need to break a law ----

AI
The concept of "sin" is often tied to actions, specifically actions that violate divine laws or moral principles, but it can also encompass thoughts and intentions.

Sin as Action:
The Bible often portrays sin as a direct result of actions, such as murder, theft, adultery, or breaking commandments.

If sin is not imputed without the law, how can some claim that babies and children die because Adam's sin is imputed to them?

So the answer to your Question is ------

-Babies do not DIE because of Adam's sin =====they die for other reasons -----and they go Straight back to God in Heaven as they are deemed innocent as God Does not IMPUTE SIN ON CHILDREN =======

SO I say ------we all need know our scriptures and do our research so we know when we are being Fed False Doctrine ------

This is speaking of the Coming of Jesus -----

NOTE: verse 15-----

Isaiah 7:10-15 AMP B
The Child Immanuel
10 Then the Lord spoke again to [King] Ahaz, saying,

11 “Ask a sign for yourself from the Lord your God [one that will convince you that God has spoken and will keep His word]; make your request as deep as Sheol or as high as heaven.”

12 But Ahaz said, “[a]I will not ask, nor will I test the Lord!”

13 Then Isaiah said, “Hear then, O house of David! Is it too small a thing for you to try the patience of men, but will you try the patience of my God as well?

14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Listen carefully, the [b]virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and she will call his name Immanuel (God with us).

15 He will eat curds and honey when he knows enough to refuse evil and choose good.

AI
In scripture, "curds and honey" (or "butter and honey") often symbolize a life of abundance and peace, especially for children,


Deuteronomy 1:29 also makes reference to Children who do not yet Know good from Evil as Innocent

I say --------Here =======The Israelites were rebelling against God and God is telling them that they will not enter the promised land ---but that He will allow their Innocent Children who do not yet know good from Evil to possess it --

Read all for yourselves ----I am just posting this scripture

Deuteronomy 1 Amplified Bible
Israel’s History after the Exodus

Amplified Bible
Moreover, your little ones whom you said would become prey, and your sons, who today have no knowledge of good or evil, shall enter Canaan, and I will give it to them and they shall possess it.

 

[Whomsoever]

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, on the basis of which (eph' hOi) all have sinned:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

If we assume that original sin is a thing, then Romans 5:13-14 would seem to be a lie. Original sin asserts that sin (the sin of Adam) is imputed to all, including those who lived between Adam and Moses. But Rom. 5:13-15 tells us that sin was not being imputed to anyone when there was no law, nevertheless all died when there was no law. So, the cause of their deaths cannot have been imputed sin, whether the sin of Adam or the sin/s of the person dying.
This text says that death for all Adam's progeny was imposed as a consequence of Adam's sin. It does not say Adam's sin was imputed to his progeny.

What does Paul mean by "had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's sin? He means that they had not knowingly broken a law specifically given to them by God. And there were many such sinners before the law: sinners who acted without faith in God, but did not know of the specific divine expectations they were transgressing against.
Adam is a type of Christ, in that the consequence of Adam's sin (death/mortality/limited life spans) was placed upon all his progeny without their being imputed with Adam's own sin; and the consequences of Jesus' righteousness, His resurrection from the dead , is placed on all His progeny (believers), or perhaps all His siblings (mankind) without His own righteousness being imputed to us/them.


So how do others deal with Romans 5:13-15?

Why would we be born cut off from God, if sin is not imputed where there is no law? Your sins have separated between you and your God. If your sins are not imputed at birth because you don't have and know the law, what would cause you to be separated from God at birth?

Freewill and the knowledge that God is Just.


The two churches Christ approved of, both taught the same thing. When you go learn its beginning, what takes place in this 'age' becomes clear and without question. Find one of those churches and all questions will be answered.


We are given the beginning of it in Rev 12

1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth:

 

[CS1]

We know children die. That isn't what is being discussed.

If sin is not imputed without the law, how can some claim that babies and children die because Adam's sin is imputed to them?


Maybe you need to learn to read.

 

[PaulThomson]

Nothing, (Only born with the knowledge of good and evil, yet still not knowing the truth in that. The choice to believe or not believe God, whenever that day arrives to decide assuredly to believe God in Jeremiah 29:11 for me at least.
I, know God wants what is best for me and all others too, no matter however I or others might view it
Born with the knowledge to decide when come of age, and not one person has an exact age
I see a reunion in Heaven with all the Babies that died and even were aborted
So women start rejoicing God loves you and everyone, that is fact And God knows what is best for us all, IMOP

Are you going to explain the meaning of the verses high-lighted in the OP?

 

[CS1]

Rom 9:10-15
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”

Please show in the word of God where a child is said to be condemned. In every incidence, it is contextual to adults.

Jesus said :

Matthew 18:1- 7, 10

18 At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

2 Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them, 3 and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.

6 “But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea. 7 Woe to the world because of offenses! For offenses must come, but woe to that man by whom the offense comes!

Note that Jesus said Children are Humble. Jesus said AS THIS CHILD! IS THE GREATEST IN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN.

This child Jesus made it clear children are not the problem because they are humble.

“Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven.

 

[bluejean_bible]

If sin is not imputed without the law, how can some claim that babies and children die because Adam's sin is imputed to them?


Maybe you need to learn to read.

Feel better?

I understand you don't know what is being discussed. That's OK.

Please,proceed with your attempts at insult. You will again fail. I shall again pray for you.

 

[PaulThomson]

I will try, and thanks for asking

Okay, death came to Adam the first in unbelief to God who ate and was told to not eat or he would die.
Adam ate, so death came, and God did not kill Adam or Eve, yet death came and did its thing

Being made aware of right and wrong, from eating from that tree of the knowledge of right and wrong, left Adam to decide, you to decide, me to decide, everyone to decide what is right and what is wrong. And oh boy what a mess that became, having no Law as a basis to work from.
So Law the Ten came in, and man messed that up worse, not seeing. the Ten as Love as is now today revealed to us all in Son for us all. Love overcame evil, love overcomes evil, no need for Law, only Love, as Jesus was asked what is the most important command in the Law (The Ten)
Jesus's answered LOVE to Father first, then neighbor as self. Problem from that is, people,e are loving self first, then trying to love neighbor as self. Messed up isn't it?
The Ten make up Love, God's type in 1 Son Jesus, to do in reality and not take any credit in self.
Everything from day one in the fall, has been being played out for us to see and choose belief to Gods love for us all above it all
A dispensation, we think new know, and then find out we do not know, then Father reveals and we either agree with Daddy, PaPa, Father or not.

And so wars, rumors of wars, and death happened happens to us all. I have harmed others, have you? see in Genesis where Dinah was raped (Genesis 34)
And what the first chosen did to the clan, killing them with deception. Even though it is righteous to do things to others that have done things to you or family
Today not so. they were unaware of full truth of Love of God wins and won for us
The Law of Moses is today no more, what??????????????????

Authorized (King James) Version

Hebrews 7:11-12
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Trusting Father to tell you, what you need to know as we each grow in different stages here on earth

I'm sorry. Maybe I am too dense, but I just cannot see how what you posted here explains the meaning of the verses high-lighted in the OP.

Could you, please, try to tie it more closely to the text of the verses?

 

[CS1]

Rom 9:10-15
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”

That is not a normative that was descriptive. Jesus said more about this in Matthew chapter 18.

You can't build a doctrine on one text in the Old Testament without supporting scripture. Jesus is the authority, and Matthew 18 is clear whenever he speaks.

 

[PaulThomson]

Freewill and the knowledge that God is Just.


The two churches Christ approved of, both taught the same thing. When you go learn its beginning, what takes place in this 'age' becomes clear and without question. Find one of those churches and all questions will be answered.


We are given the beginning of it in Rev 12

1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth:

I don't see how God allowing all humans to be born corrupt is just. Nor do I see how your post explains the wording of the verses high-lighted in the OP.

 

[CS1]

Feel better?

I understand you don't know what is being discussed. That's OK.

Please, proceed with your attempts at insult. You will again fail. I shall again pray for you.

I provided Matthew 18 for you, Jesus speaking, attack me all you like and be rude. I did not insult you; you

"We know children die. That isn't what is being discussed." your post 34

 

[PaulThomson]

Who can really say they can untangle false doctrine others choose to live by?

Yes,it is worse when they seek to lead others into their falsehood. However, those grounded in the actual good news of Christ will not be led astray.

There are also people,I've met a few, who insist aborted,miscarried babies and newborns and toddlers, can go to Hell when they die at those tender stages of life.

I don't try to dissuade people who follow that satanic icon they manufacturer for themselves.

Because I can't change them. And unless holy Spirit enters in and leads their dead consciousness into the light of Christ they will stay that way to the day they die.

Though I do admit I pray they are sterile so as to not have children they think of in those ways.

So, does that mean you don't have an explanation of the meaning of the highlighted verses in the OP?

 

[CS1]

I don't see how God allowing all humans to be born corrupt is just. Nor do I see how your post explains the wording of the verses high-lighted in the OP.

God did not allow us to be born corrupt. That is the condition of fallen man. God provided the redemption

 

[PaulThomson]

Blessing in disguise. If death spread to all men through sin (Adam) then salvation can be offered to ALL men.

Is that really why you think God limited all men's lifespans?

 

[PaulThomson]

Because flesh gives birth to flesh and what we call the "sin nature" is a genetically formed corruption in the flesh, inherited down the line from Adam. That corruption cuts us off from God because we cannot be born of God being corrupted as we are and ensures we will commit our own personal sins. This is why Jesus said we must be born from above as we have no capacity to comprehend anything spiritual being born body and soul only and God is Spirit.

Adam condemned us to sin, we weren't condemned on the basis of our personal sins and even now we are not condemned on the basis of our sin but remain condemned on the basis on our rejection of Christ.

John 3:6
What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Romans 7:23
But I see a different law in my members waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that is in my members.

1 Corinthians 2:14
The unbeliever does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him. And he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

John 3:18
The one who believes in him is not condemned. The one who does not believe has been condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

Sorry, but I don't see how this ties in to the verses high-lighted in the OP.

 

[PaulThomson]

Anyone who consistently follows Augustinian theology believes that the CONSEQUENCES of Adam's sin - physical death, and moral corruption are transmitted (or passed down or imputed) to every decedent of Adam. Augustine taught that the MODE of this transmission is via SEXUAL DESIRE or CONCUPISCENCE. Augustine taught that the mode of transmitting the sin nature was ORGANIC which meant that SOMEHOW the genetic unity that exists between Adam and his progeny caused us all to INHERIT not only Adam's physical properties but also the consequences of Adams moral/spiritual choices (i.e., his sins) as well.

In one of his many books, Augustine wrote that: "....among the many peculiar and blessings of marriage "must NOT be reckoned fleshly concupiscence; (sexual desire) insomuch as this is WHOLLY EVIL, such as does not proceed from the very nature of marriage, but is an accident thereof ARISING FROM ORIGINAL SIN. This evil, notwithstanding, is rightly employed by marriage for the procreation of children. But, as the result of this concupiscence, it comes to pass that, even from the lawful marriage of the children of God, men are not born children of God, but of the world, and are bound with the chain of sin, although their parents have been liberated therefrom by grace; and are led captive by the devil..."
[On Marriage and Concupiscence, In Two Books," by Aurelius Augustin, Bishop of Hippo; Book I.5, (written in between AD 419 and 420)]

According to Augustine, all men are "born children of the world, (already) bound by a chain of sin even if their own parents might be godly people." We can better understand Augustine's obsession with sexual sin when we recall that, through much of his pre-Christian experience, he was a SEXUAL ADDICT.

Augustine was one sick puppy.

 

[PaulThomson]

I don't know anyone who thinks babies die because Adams sin is imputed to them.

Such a thing isn't true. I think that falsehood actually makes God look evil.

Wow. You need to get out more, theologically speaking.

Nut you are right. It does make God look evil.

 

[bluejean_bible]

Wow. You need to get out more, theologically speaking.

Where would you be if your theology didn't include sarcasm?

My observation was just. Because I pay attention to people's writings. So to know this.

 

[PaulThomson]

Where would you be if your theology didn't include sarcasm?

My observation was just. Because I pay attention to people's writings. So to know this.

Type into Google search "Is Adam's sin imputed to babies?"

 

[bluejean_bible]

Type into Google search "Is Adam's sin imputed to babies?"

Read Ezekiel 18

 

[bluejean_bible]

https://evidenceforchristianity.org...trine-what-about-the-idea-of-a-sinful-nature/