GOD'S ULTIMATE PURPOSE FOR BELIEVERS
- Thread starter MISSION-IMPOSSIBLE
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That’s not what 1 John 1:8 says or means. John is speaking about those who habitually sin and/or who deny they sin from time to time.
So either you are a sinner or a saint.
If you see yourself as a sinner, you will never renew your mind to recognize that you are sitting in heavenly places in Christ (Epf. 2:2).[/QUOTE
So either you are a sinner or a saint.
If you see yourself as a sinner, you will never renew your mind to recognize that you are sitting in heavenly places in Christ (Epf. 2:2).[/QUOTE
The suffix -er is typically added to the end of words to indicate that a person does an action. So -er literally means “one who.” For example, one who sins is called a sinner; one who games is called a gamer; one who hunts is called a hunter.
If someone stops doing something then they are no longer called that thing. If someone stops gaming and hunting then they are no longer a gamer or a hunter. If someone stops sinning then they are no longer a sinner.
The logical conclusion most people seem to be seeing is that OP is claiming sinless perfection. Therefore, being a “forgiven sinner” doesn’t insult God’s grace.
If someone stops doing something then they are no longer called that thing. If someone stops gaming and hunting then they are no longer a gamer or a hunter. If someone stops sinning then they are no longer a sinner.
The logical conclusion most people seem to be seeing is that OP is claiming sinless perfection. Therefore, being a “forgiven sinner” doesn’t insult God’s grace.
I think we agree in a sense. You’re talking about conditional immunity if I understand you correctly. For example, there are conditions for the New Covenant.
We agree to conditions then do our best to keep our end of the covenant, but if we lose faith then we are not accessing God’s grace anymore or this conditional immunity to no longer have sins charged to our account?
Romans 4
4Now the wages of the worker are not credited as a gift, but as an obligation.5However, to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6And David speaks likewise of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7“Blessed are they whose lawless acts are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord will never count against him.”
We agree to conditions then do our best to keep our end of the covenant, but if we lose faith then we are not accessing God’s grace anymore or this conditional immunity to no longer have sins charged to our account?
Romans 4
4Now the wages of the worker are not credited as a gift, but as an obligation.5However, to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6And David speaks likewise of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7“Blessed are they whose lawless acts are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord will never count against him.”
Paul was like all of us and at times committed sins -- wrong acts and deeds -- in his flesh. Thus he was like all of us a "sinner" in the flesh.
But, it is also true that no sin will get into heaven. All the sins that we commit as believers are forgiven through the blood of Christ. Thus God no longer views us as sinners (at our spirit level), but as saints and as sons of God.
I think the author of this thread is trying to tell us that out mindset and understanding of God's view of us is critical to how we live in this world. If we think God views us simply as dull, half-witted, sinners then we will tend to live that way. If we realize God views us as His children then we will tend to live that way.
But, it is also true that no sin will get into heaven. All the sins that we commit as believers are forgiven through the blood of Christ. Thus God no longer views us as sinners (at our spirit level), but as saints and as sons of God.
I think the author of this thread is trying to tell us that out mindset and understanding of God's view of us is critical to how we live in this world. If we think God views us simply as dull, half-witted, sinners then we will tend to live that way. If we realize God views us as His children then we will tend to live that way.
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Interesting. And you might be right. I do not know and have not followed the author of this thread previously. I am just taking at face value what I see him writing and think he has some important things to say. I think "hyper-grace" teaching is more teaching that says it is just OK to keep on sinning and living as a sinner and God's hyper grace will cover your sins no matter how you live.
I'm not so sure Paul was expressing that he considered himself the foremost of sinners at the time of his writing. He wrote elsewhere that he "didn't know anything against himself", that is, that he had a clear conscience. Perhaps he meant that his sins were worse then anyone's? Though he didn't continue to commit those sins, such as persecuting the Christians.
Romans 7:17-20 KJV
17) Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19) For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20) Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Here Paul twice tells us that now it is no longer I that commit sins, but sin that lives in me, specifically in my flesh. Until our minds are renewed we think according to our flesh, and commit those same sins. As our minds are renewed, we come to think according to the new creation we've become, being born from God, and do those righteous acts which come from the Spirit.
Much love!
Romans 7:17-20 KJV
17) Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19) For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20) Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Here Paul twice tells us that now it is no longer I that commit sins, but sin that lives in me, specifically in my flesh. Until our minds are renewed we think according to our flesh, and commit those same sins. As our minds are renewed, we come to think according to the new creation we've become, being born from God, and do those righteous acts which come from the Spirit.
Much love!
I don't see this as him speaking purely from a sense of humility, I think he was giving a factual self-assesment, but that it is in context of his former life. I think we should attach the full and straightforward meaning to his words.
That Paul was telling us that he was the worst of the bunch, and God saved him to let the rest of us know we too have a chance.
Much love!
That Paul was telling us that he was the worst of the bunch, and God saved him to let the rest of us know we too have a chance.
Much love!
More than that, we have been recreated patterned after God Himself, in righteousness and true holiness. Now, all things are of God.
But we have to "put on" that new man, to be "transformed by the renewing of our minds". We are no longer sinners, we are children of God. But we have to be trained to stop thinking like sinners, and then, because we still think like sinners, continue to sin.
In the renewing of our minds, we are learning to think like Jesus Christ Himself, His mind imprinting onto ours, through the reading and teaching of His Word, and in seeing righteous fruit being produced.
Much love!
But we have to "put on" that new man, to be "transformed by the renewing of our minds". We are no longer sinners, we are children of God. But we have to be trained to stop thinking like sinners, and then, because we still think like sinners, continue to sin.
In the renewing of our minds, we are learning to think like Jesus Christ Himself, His mind imprinting onto ours, through the reading and teaching of His Word, and in seeing righteous fruit being produced.
Much love!
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