Does God ever cancel covenant promises?

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Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#21
Jun 30, 2015
25,602
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#21
Blik said:
How thoughtful these posts are. I don't see scripture backup for many beliefs presented, though.

I don't find scripture saying we are not under the old covenants, we are only under the new one.

I don't find that God does not see us as humans to be treated the same but one human a Jew and another a gentile. We are told he blessed the Hebrews that he created from gentiles with Abraham, but scripture states over and over that with God He sees people as ones who belong to Him through faith and people with no faith in God, He doesn't see humans as Jew/gentile. God doesn't make promises based on nationality.

Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him.

God is God, eternal and the same always. God is not new testament, old testament. A principle of God stated in the old testament is true of God without the limitations of time. As an example God requires innocent blood for forgiveness to be given. That is true from the time of Cain and Abel whose experiences show this to the time of Christ when He gave His innocent blood for our sins.

The phrase "under the law" seems to me to get pretty mixed up. If you are under the law you go to your behavior for salvation, if you are not under the law you go to Christ for salvation. It's meaning has nothing to do with obedience.
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You essentially claim that obedience to the Law is still proper. So... do you claim to obey every ordinance of the Law? What do you do with James 2:10-11 and Hebrews 7:12 and 18?
 
GraceAndTruth

GraceAndTruth

Well-known member
#22
Sep 28, 2015
2,031
637
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#22
The old covenant of Law was fulfilled by Jesus Christ at the cross. At that time we entered into the NEW covenant of GRACE. Rightly divide the word.......at the CROSS. Jesus' ministry was to the Jews under the Law.

God kept ALL His promises to the Jews and fulfilled all the prophecies to them also.
Some of God's promises were usually contingent on the Jews taking an actions.
 
Blik

Blik

Senior Member
#23
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
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#23
BenFTW said:
We can paint it very clearly. Would you rather have to be obedient to be blessed (and cursed for disobedience) or would you rather be in a covenant of grace (no merit) and let the promises of God in Christ Jesus be "Yes" and "Amen"? Surely the answer is obvious, and the distinction that there are two covenants is made clear.

I am not saying there is no moral obligation when I say we are not under the law, this you have falsely concluded. As Paul says, how can we who are dead to sin live therein? No longer slaves to sin but righteousness. We ought to not use our members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin, but instruments of righteousness unto God (Romans 6:13).

Why must Antinomianism be the cry (and accusation) against those who rightly divide God's word, and honor the work of Christ? There is no condemnation in Jesus Christ, where as the law was a ministry of condemnation (2 Corinthians 3:9). It was a school master, leading us to Christ. Revealing our inadequacy to meet God's standard of perfection and our necessity for Christ, our Savior. This reveals why righteousness, true righteousness from God, is imputed by faith. It is accredited.

Jesus took our sin (away) and gives us righteousness and justification before God.
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A covenant of grace has nothing at all to do with obedience, why do you insist on mixing them up?

You receive blessing for law obedience, not salvation.

You receive salvation through grace, it is a horse of an entirely different color. Don't mix them.
 
BenFTW

BenFTW

Senior Member
#24
Oct 7, 2012
4,834
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#24
Blik said:
A covenant of grace has nothing at all to do with obedience, why do you insist on mixing them up?

You receive blessing for law obedience, not salvation.

You receive salvation through grace, it is a horse of an entirely different color. Don't mix them.
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On the contrary, obedience from a place of gratitude is found under a covenant of grace. Our reasonable service (as scripture says).
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#26
Jun 30, 2015
25,602
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#26
Nehemiah6 said:
Why don't you tell us? BTW it is Old Covenant (singular).
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Actually, the plural is correct, according to Romans 9:4 "Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises".
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#27
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,778
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#27
Dino246 said:
Actually, the plural is correct, according to Romans 9:4 "Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises".
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Since we are focused on the Old vs the New Covenant, that would be singular. At the same time, God made a covenant with the children of those who perished in the wilderness (for unbelief) regarding their occupancy of the land, and how they would be driven out for their disobedience. That is why we have covenant(s) in Rom 9:4.

Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers giveth you. (Deut 4:1)

THE OLD COVENANT AFTER THE EXODUS
And he declared unto you his covenant, [singular] which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. (Deut 4:13)

THE COVENANT WITH THOSE WHO SURVIVED THE WILDERNESS
The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day... But as for thee, stand thou here by me, and I will speak unto thee all the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which thou shalt teach them, that they may do them in the land which I give them to possess it.
(Deut 5:3,31)
 
Blik

Blik

Senior Member
#28
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
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#28
BenFTW said:
On the contrary, obedience from a place of gratitude is found under a covenant of grace. Our reasonable service (as scripture says).
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Where?
 
Blik

Blik

Senior Member
#29
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,428
113
#29
Nehemiah6 said:
Since we are focused on the Old vs the New Covenant, that would be singular. At the same time, God made a covenant with the children of those who perished in the wilderness (for unbelief) regarding their occupancy of the land, and how they would be driven out for their disobedience. That is why we have covenant(s) in Rom 9:4.

Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers giveth you. (Deut 4:1)

THE OLD COVENANT AFTER THE EXODUS
And he declared unto you his covenant, [singular] which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. (Deut 4:13)

THE COVENANT WITH THOSE WHO SURVIVED THE WILDERNESS
The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day... But as for thee, stand thou here by me, and I will speak unto thee all the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which thou shalt teach them, that they may do them in the land which I give them to possess it.
(Deut 5:3,31)
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So we come back to that the covenant spoken of in Deut 4 is a covenant telling us we will be blessed for obedience, and it has nothing to do with salvation. Speaking of justice is not speaking of salvation.
 
JaumeJ

JaumeJ

Senior Member
#30
Jul 2, 2011
21,465
6,722
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#30
BenFTW said:
We can paint it very clearly. Would you rather have to be obedient to be blessed (and cursed for disobedience) or would you rather be in a covenant of grace (no merit) and let the promises of God in Christ Jesus be "Yes" and "Amen"? Surely the answer is obvious, and the distinction that there are two covenants is made clear.

I am not saying there is no moral obligation when I say we are not under the law, this you have falsely concluded. As Paul says, how can we who are dead to sin live therein? No longer slaves to sin but righteousness. We ought to not use our members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin, but instruments of righteousness unto God (Romans 6:13).

Why must Antinomianism be the cry (and accusation) against those who rightly divide God's word, and honor the work of Christ? There is no condemnation in Jesus Christ, where as the law was a ministry of condemnation (2 Corinthians 3:9). It was a school master, leading us to Christ. Revealing our inadequacy to meet God's standard of perfection and our necessity for Christ, our Savior. This reveals why righteousness, true righteousness from God, is imputed by faith. It is accredited.

Jesus took our sin (away) and gives us righteousness and justification before God.
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Read the following from ou Teacher, Jesus, Yeshua:

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

I believe Jesus Christ, not men. Do not call the Savior a liar. No man is under the law who obeys Jesus Christ, and I choose Him, not flesh.ñ
 
JaumeJ

JaumeJ

Senior Member
#32
Jul 2, 2011
21,465
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#32
JaumeJ said:
Read the following from ou Teacher, Jesus, Yeshua:

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

I believe Jesus Christ, not men. Do not call the Savior a liar. No man is under the law who obeys Jesus Christ, and I choose Him, not flesh.ñ
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For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

How can anyone mistake what Jesus has taught here?
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#33
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
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#33
Blik said:
So we come back to that the covenant spoken of in Deut 4 is a covenant telling us we will be blessed for obedience, and it has nothing to do with salvation. Speaking of justice is not speaking of salvation.
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Telling Christians?

Or telling those who follow ancient Judaism?
 
foolishone

foolishone

Junior Member
#34
Aug 13, 2017
93
61
18
#34
Hi everyone! Concerning the law of Moses read Galatians 3. All of it together, word by word, line by line. Without taking scripture out of context. Paul answers this question. We are not under the law. Paul also answers it in Romans and Hebrews but Galatians 3 he lays it out from Abraham, ( were God first preached the gospel to Abraham ), to Moses, to Christ.
There are different covenants ( promises ). God fulfills His promises and some are done and others ( the Israel nation for example ) are to still to be fulfilled.
 
JaumeJ

JaumeJ

Senior Member
#35
Jul 2, 2011
21,465
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113
#35
foolishone said:
Hi everyone! Concerning the law of Moses read Galatians 3. All of it together, word by word, line by line. Without taking scripture out of context. Paul answers this question. We are not under the law. Paul also answers it in Romans and Hebrews but Galatians 3 he lays it out from Abraham, ( were God first preached the gospel to Abraham ), to Moses, to Christ.
There are different covenants ( promises ). God fulfills His promises and some are done and others ( the Israel nation for example ) are to still to be fulfilled.
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Paul rescinds the teaching of Jesus Christ? I will always believe Jesus. He is not a liar or confused as are those wh claim to believe Jesus yet deny His teaching.
 
foolishone

foolishone

Junior Member
#36
Aug 13, 2017
93
61
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#36
JaumeJ said:
Paul rescinds the teaching of Jesus Christ? I will always believe Jesus. He is not a liar or confused as are those wh claim to believe Jesus yet deny His teaching.
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Not at all he explains the promise and gospel and where the mosaic law stands and were we are now. Jesus did not lie you are just confusing mosaic law with the commands of God.
 
JaumeJ

JaumeJ

Senior Member
#37
Jul 2, 2011
21,465
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#37
foolishone said:
Not at all he explains the promise and gospel and where the mosaic law stands and were we are now. Jesus did not lie you are just confusing mosaic law with the commands of God.
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Even with the teaching of Jesus Christ right here stating the law will not be obsolete and should not be taught against according to His teaching......sorry. I believe Jesus Christ on this matter, not the failed interpretations of men.

He promises if a any tach against even the least of the laws, they will be least in heaven..I will not accept this free-wheeling attitude towards obedience according to the Man Who Did for my sins. I am too much in debt to Him to do such a dastardly thing.
 
foolishone

foolishone

Junior Member
#38
Aug 13, 2017
93
61
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#38
JaumeJ said:
Even with the teaching of Jesus Christ right here stating the law will not be obsolete and should not be taught against according to His teaching......sorry. I believe Jesus Christ on this matter, not the failed interpretations of men.

He promises if a any tach against even the least of the laws, they will be least in heaven..I will not accept this free-wheeling attitude towards obedience according to the Man Who Did for my sins. I am too much in debt to Him to do such a dastardly thing.
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In the Old Testament and New there is a distinguishing between Gods commands ( 10 ) and Moses law. Matthew 19 Jesus is talking about God's commands ( 10 ). In the Old Testament Gods commands, the 10, were written with His finger and placed in the ark of the covenant. The Mosaic Commands or laws were placed outside. Paul is talking about the Mosaic law being done with. Not Gods Commands. Jesus is true, Gods commands will not pass away.
I believe the whole Bible including Pauls teachings as being from the Lord. There are no contradictions. I have experienced that law keepers get upset with Paul now just like they did then. I will try and find those other verses where even God makes a distinguishing between His commands and the other laws, ordinances etc.
Till then I think Paul explains the promise to Abraham ( gospel, salvation by faith through and in Christ to all ), why the mosaic law came in between Abraham and Christs fulfillment of the promise and why it is not relevant now. Amazing Grace.
You may feel free to hang unto ordinances and laws and traditions. But I am free in Christ and do obey Gods commands which are not grievous as moses laws were.
 
G

gb9

Senior Member
#39
Jan 18, 2011
12,398
6,737
113
#39
foolishone said:
In the Old Testament and New there is a distinguishing between Gods commands ( 10 ) and Moses law. Matthew 19 Jesus is talking about God's commands ( 10 ). In the Old Testament Gods commands, the 10, were written with His finger and placed in the ark of the covenant. The Mosaic Commands or laws were placed outside. Paul is talking about the Mosaic law being done with. Not Gods Commands. Jesus is true, Gods commands will not pass away.
I believe the whole Bible including Pauls teachings as being from the Lord. There are no contradictions. I have experienced that law keepers get upset with Paul now just like they did then. I will try and find those other verses where even God makes a distinguishing between His commands and the other laws, ordinances etc.
Till then I think Paul explains the promise to Abraham ( gospel, salvation by faith through and in Christ to all ), why the mosaic law came in between Abraham and Christs fulfillment of the promise and why not now. Amazing Grace.
You may feel free to hang unto ordinances and laws and traditions. But I am free in Christ and do obey Gods commands which are not grievous as moses laws were.
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just so you know, Jamie j has stated in the past that "real, true believing Christ followers do not need to read Paul's letters , His letters were for churches with problems, we can learn all we need to know from Jesus."

Jamie j is a Law- lover. Jamie j says " don't need to read Paul ". Paul said " not under the Law "

draw your own conclusion.
 
foolishone

foolishone

Junior Member
#40
Aug 13, 2017
93
61
18
#40
gb9 said:
just so you know, Jamie j has stated in the past that "real, true believing Christ followers do not need to read Paul's letters , His letters were for churches with problems, we can learn all we need to know from Jesus."

Jamie j is a Law- lover. Jamie j says " don't need to read Paul ". Paul said " not under the Law "

draw your own conclusion.
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I gathered that very quickly. Law keepers have only the OT and maybe some of the 4 gospels as long as it agrees with their desire to hold unto the laws and traditions. In find it very sad.
 
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