Christ is God

[beta]

Dear child,beta(yes I said child,you may be in your 80s yet you are still a child in christ,clearly)you seem to not grasp "how" to read the bible,the bible is to be read along side the holy spirit,in a spiritual sense,not natural sense to be even remotely understood,the dispute here is that you believe that Jesus and God are not one and the same,because you read the scriptures,"naturally" like a simple book,Jesus was indeed born here on earth,but he was God made flesh,true they referred to each other as father and son,but they were all one and are still one,for if Jesus wasn't God then how did he not sin? for it is written there are none good no not one like wise none righteous,and if Jesus were a mere "man" then why did satan,not attempt to kill him nor hurt him? true God could still protect him but God never made himself known in the exchange of words,so God had to be Jesus,for God would have surely spoken if Jesus was not almighty,needing God's help,you see in the "natural" sense you could determine,jesus was a man whom was born as a child to mary,but in the "spiritual" sense you'd discover certain red flags telling you that Jesus was clearly God,for example how did Jesus know and preach and teach many scriptures,as a child,if he wasn't God made flesh,for even mary and joseph wondered how he knew so much of scriptures,since clearly they didn't teach him them,also is it not written"that a house divided against itself can't stand" if God was divided in power or in body then how is it that neither God nor Jesus were attacked by the devil during Jesus's walk in life? because to simplify"is nothing too hard for God" or better yet"with God all things are possible",well hope you have been saved and baptized and will study alongside the holy spirit next time you read the "bible" otherwise affectionately known as" "God's word" but yes "in the beginning was the word and the word was God" as in "truth" and Jesus is "the way,the "truth" and the light" so once again both are the Word/Truth thereby both are one,also don't forget the "holy spirit"/ghost he too is God,tis why today we call them the "trinity" for it is no idle words when "someone" is baptized in the name of the "father" the "son" and" the holy spirit/ghost for all are one but God as respect to himself,is only known as the "one who is greater"so as to know whom above all names is to be praised and given glory,that's all,try to think "spiritually" alongside the holy spirit then you'll begin to "truly" understand what you read in the bible,on a final note,good choice in bibles,my church uses only king james version too,that should make things go even smoother for you,in my opinion!

Thank you for your 'wall to wall message---bit hard for an old person to read 'en bloc' but I already have a 'Teacher come from God' in whom I trust completely.

 

[posthuman]

Have you done now ? letting your imagination run riot ? putting words in people's mouth ?
I was simply making ref to the point Joh 20v29 was being discussed. There are always more scriptures to elaborate on....but what Jesus said to Thomas here has some significance.
Not going to argue and blowing things out of proportion. I have explained the position of Jesus as I see it elsewhere.

maybe you ought to reiterate and expand your view on the validity of the apostle Thomas' testimony, then.

it seemed to me to be pretty plain how the discussion went: do you think this is a fair synopsis?

Q:
"Thomas called Jesus 'my Lord and my God' - why didn't Jesus rebuke him, since this is obvious blasphemy if it's not a true statement?"

​

A:
"Thomas was a faithless disappointment as a disciple so let's ignore his testimony"​

throwing shade on Thomas is unwarranted and does not in any way answer the question.
in fact, if i accept your low view of the apostle, then the question of why Jesus did not correct him becomes all that much bigger!!

you say literally that your view is Thomas is 'not among the blessed' because he saw Jesus.
that's directly contradicted by Jesus calling all the disciples blessed because they see Him, in the verses i cited. and if seeing Jesus makes one 'unblessed' then so also for the disciples who ran to the tomb? do you mean to discredit the testimony of all 11?

Jesus replied,
"Go back and report to John what you hear and see"
(Matthew 11:4)
​

If I am not doing the works of My Father, then do not believe Me. But if I am doing them, even though you do not believe Me, believe the works themselves, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.
(John 10:37-28)
​

Jesus seems to have a high view of evidence.
hmm

 

[posthuman]

Jesus seems to have a high view of evidence.
hmm

in point of fact, if we continue reading in John 20, John explicitly says these things ((what things? the signs that accompanied Jesus!)) are written so that the reader will believe
the book of John is a book of evidence, whose purpose is to convince that Jesus is The Anointed One, the BRANCH, the One called Everlasting Father, God With Us.


[HR][/HR][HR][/HR]

but this thread isn't about unbelief & the excuses made for it; it's about the evidence of the scripture - so, to the book of John:

And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, “Peace to you!” Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.”
And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
(John 20:26-29)
​

1. Jesus declares peace to Thomas, not conflict.
2. Jesus' will is for Thomas to believe.
3. Jesus therefore presents Thomas with the evidence Thomas says will convince him, with the purpose that Thomas should believe.
4. Thomas calls Him Lord and God.
5. Jesus does not rebuke this statement.
   
6. Jesus affirms that Thomas believes - i.e., His will that Thomas should believe is accomplished.
7. Jesus says those ((that's us, btw)) who do not have the advantage of seeing Him, but still believe, are blessed. This does not mean Thomas is 'unblessed' - Thomas believes. it means that those who believe though they do not have the advantage Thomas has are blessed. This last statement is not about Thomas or about anyone else present when the statement was made.

i want to draw our attention to #6 above, in particular: when Thomas calls Christ "God" Jesus affirms that Thomas believes.
so what is it that Thomas believes?
more than simply failing to rebuke him, Jesus obviously agrees with what Thomas said and reinforces Thomas' statement. Jesus' statement proves that what Thomas said is a statement of true belief!

that is, this is what a true believer says to Jesus the Christ:

my Lord and my God!​

 

[posthuman]

we hear people say,

unless i see a scripture where Jesus says "I am God" i will not believe​

hahaha!

does such a statement remind you of anyone? in John chapter 20?

and we are saying, do not be unbelieving, but believing.
put your finger in here, and reach your hand here.

 

[beta]

maybe you ought to reiterate and expand your view on the validity of the apostle Thomas' testimony, then.

it seemed to me to be pretty plain how the discussion went: do you think this is a fair synopsis?

Q:
"Thomas called Jesus 'my Lord and my God' - why didn't Jesus rebuke him, since this is obvious blasphemy if it's not a true statement?"

​

A:
"Thomas was a faithless disappointment as a disciple so let's ignore his testimony"​

throwing shade on Thomas is unwarranted and does not in any way answer the question.
in fact, if i accept your low view of the apostle, then the question of why Jesus did not correct him becomes all that much bigger!!

you say literally that your view is Thomas is 'not among the blessed' because he saw Jesus.
that's directly contradicted by Jesus calling all the disciples blessed because they see Him, in the verses i cited. and if seeing Jesus makes one 'unblessed' then so also for the disciples who ran to the tomb? do you mean to discredit the testimony of all 11?

Jesus replied,
"Go back and report to John what you hear and see"
(Matthew 11:4)
​

If I am not doing the works of My Father, then do not believe Me. But if I am doing them, even though you do not believe Me, believe the works themselves, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.
(John 10:37-28)
​

Jesus seems to have a high view of evidence.
hmm

I am sorry you feel the ned to add to what I said about Thomas making it all a lot worse.
You must not have found my posts to other people explaining why Jesus did not rebuke Thomas when he called Him 'my Lord and God'. So I will just tell you in a nutshell why not----
for the present time Jesus has all authority on earth and is doing all the work 'in the Fathers Name and is indeed 'God with us '!
But that high position will end when the work is done and Jesus hands all and subjects himself also back to God 1 Cor 15v25-28.

 

[posthuman]

Now the argument is that anyone who acts as God's proxy can justifiably be worshipped and called God?

Anyone see an obvious issue with such a position....?

 

[beta]

Now the argument is that anyone who acts as God's proxy can justifiably be worshipped and called God?

Anyone see an obvious issue with such a position....?

Since JESUS is the ONLY EXPRESS IMAGE of the Father we will be hard pushed to find another to fill His position and your question is 'irrelevant.
Lets just stop all this silly arguing...we should 'love each other !

 

[posthuman]

YHWH is my Shepherd,
I shall not want
(Psalm 23:1)

say to the cities of Judah,
“Behold your God!”
Behold, Adonai YHWH comes with might,
and His arm rules for Him;
behold, His reward is with Him,
and His recompense before Him.
He will tend His flock like a shepherd;
He will gather the lambs in His arms;
He will carry them in His bosom,
and gently lead those that are with young.
(Isaiah 40:9-11)

I AM THE SHEPHERD, the Good One
(John 10:11)​

 

[preacher4truth]

Since JESUS is the ONLY EXPRESS IMAGE of the Father we will be hard pushed to find another to fill His position and your question is 'irrelevant.
Lets just stop all this silly arguing...

...as you continue to argue your Arian heresy.

we should 'love each other !

Sure, but unity isn't created, it is to be maintained (Ephsians 4:3) and it always stems upon the truth of the Word, otherwise it is called compromise, it is not rightly then called "peace".

That is the fine line drawn up by God -- we are not to have unity with those who teach heresy, and unfortunately you are of the latter.

 

[posthuman]

Since JESUS is the ONLY EXPRESS IMAGE of the Father we will be hard pushed to find another to fill His position and your question is 'irrelevant.
Lets just stop all this silly arguing...we should 'love each other !

o rly?

Then the LORD said to Moses,
"See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet."
(Exodus 7:1)​

so shall we bow down to Moses and worship him, and can we call him God without blasphemy?

or would you correct such behavior?

 

[oldethennew]

oh my, UNITY can only be created by our Heavenly Holy Father =
finding and accepting the KEYS to this is truly a great challenge...,
for our precious and blessed and called brothers and sisters...

personal concepts and analysis aside, in the name of Love...

 

[posthuman]

let's do math!

set theory, specifically. first, some definitions:

for sets A & B, ((A = {a[SUB]1[/SUB], a[SUB]2[/SUB], . . . a[SUB]n[/SUB]} etc))

A ⊆ B means "A is contained in B"

that is, for every a in A, a is also in B
((written ∀ i, a[SUB]i[/SUB] ∈ A → a[SUB]i[/SUB] ∈ B))

likewise,
B ⊆ A means "B is contained in A"

got it? OK. now..

Theorem


​

if A ⊆ B and B ⊆ A
then A = B


​

proof:

​

assume A ⊆ B and B ⊆ A.
A ≠ B if and only if there is something in A that is not in B or vice versa
((written: A ≠ B iff ∃ i: a[SUB]i[/SUB] ∉ B or b[SUB]i[/SUB] ∉ A))
suppose then that there is an element in either A or B that is not in the other. we can arbitrarily pick A to have the 'extra' element, and the proof is the same for the case that it is B. let that element be a[SUB]k[/SUB], such that a[SUB]k[/SUB] ∈ A but a[SUB]k[/SUB] ∉ B. however, since A ⊆ B, a[SUB]k[/SUB] ∈ B, contradicting the assumption that a[SUB]k[/SUB] ∉ B. ​

therefore there is no such a[SUB]k[/SUB] ∉ B and A = B
​

[HR][/HR][HR][/HR]
that all make sense?

¡bueno! ​

[HR][/HR][HR][/HR]
now, keep that in mind and read this:

Philip said to Him,
“Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.”
Jesus said to him,
“Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
“Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.
“Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.
(John 14:8-11)
​

is Jesus speaking set theory?

The Son ⊆ The Father
​

and
​

The Father ⊆ The Son

​

?
​

♥
​

​

 

[FGT]

And Jesus answered him,
The first of all the commandments is,
Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
(Mark 12:29-30)
​

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD
(Deuteronomy 6:4)​

while in Deuteronomy, what is translated "LORD" is the name Yahweh, in Mark the word Jesus says which is translated "Lord" is 'kyrios' -- not the divine name, but the word which literally means "lord"

Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ -- this Jesus whom you crucified.
(Acts 2:36)
​

yet Jesus is Lord -- same word here in Acts, 'kyrios'

there is only one "Lord" and according to Torah, as Jesus Himself quotes it, calling it the most important commandment, YHVH is Lord.
but scripture calls Jesus Lord, indisputably.

if there can only be one Lord, and YHVH is Lord, and Jesus the Christ is Lord, how can you say "which of the two" ?

The Lord is One​

Revelation 11:15
And the seventh angel sounded;
and there were great voices in heaven, saying,
The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord,
and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Which one is Jesus, our Lord or his Christ?

 

[posthuman]

Revelation 11:15
And the seventh angel sounded;
and there were great voices in heaven, saying,
The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord,
and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Which one is Jesus, our Lord or his Christ?

are there two gods?

is Christ a mortal, created being?

 

[FGT]

are there two gods?

There are many gods.

 

[FGT]

is Christ a mortal, created being?

Christ is a Spirit that was embodied within a mortal created being.

 

[Meggido]

Christ is a Spirit that was embodied within a mortal created being.

welcome to ignore Gnostic....

 

[posthuman]

I have sworn by myself,
the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return,
That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
(Isaiah 45:23)

Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
(Philippians 2:9-11)​

 

[posthuman]

let's do math!

nobody wanted to do math . . . ?

 

[graceNpeace]

[/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR]nobody wanted to do math . . . ?

Reminds me of this story:

One day a physics professor was trying to explain the characteristics of electromagnetic radiation spectrum and how things change depending on the wavelength of the radiation to a bunch of first year university students.
He could tell from the bovine stares of incomprehension from his class that he wasn't really succeeding.

Suddenly he gets a brainwave, strides off to the side of the lecture theatre where his hat and coat were hanging and retrieves his hat.
He calls on one chap sitting close to the front to come and stand in front of him.
Then he raises his hat in front of the student's face so that the student could not see him.
Then the professor says to the student, "Now son, can you see me?"
To which the student replies "No sir!"
"Good!", says the professor, "But you can hear me well enough, yes?"
And the student replies, "Yes sir!"
The professor beams at this, and then asks the student, "Well son, what does this tell about the characteristics of electromagnetic radiation?"

Completely stumped the student hesitates for a second before answering timidly, "Well sir, you are talking through your hat!"