Christ is God

[Zmouth]

Sure, John 8:17-18
17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

Wouldn't that actually be his law? But I digress, so how many witnesses do you see?

Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
1 John 2:23

 

[Theos]

I'm confused Jesus is God or Servant?

The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus. You handed him over to be killed, and you disowned him before Pilate, though he had decided to let him go. (Acts 3:13)

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Even the Jews knew he was saying He was God.

At that time the Feast of the Dedication took place at Jerusalem; it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon. The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”

Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me. But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”


The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.” John 10:22-33

The best one so far!!

 

[Muzungu256]

I'm confused Jesus is God or Servant?

The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus. You handed him over to be killed, and you disowned him before Pilate, though he had decided to let him go. (Acts 3:13)

both........... God, servant, Messiah, the Holy One of Israel, the Elect, the lamb of God, LORD, King, man.

the right answer is all of the above................

 

[posthuman]

For this is what the Lord God says: See, I Myself will search for My flock and look for them. As a shepherd looks for his sheep on the day he is among his scattered flock, so I will look for My flock. I will rescue them from all the places where they have been scattered on a cloudy and dark day.
(Ezekiel 34:11-12)

For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save the lost.
(Luke 19:10)

My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me.
(John 10:27)
​

 

[williamjordan]

I'm confused Jesus is God or Servant?

The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus. You handed him over to be killed, and you disowned him before Pilate, though he had decided to let him go. (Acts 3:13)

It is the orthodox understanding that in the incarnation Jesus was “for a little while made lower than the angels” (Hebrews 2.7), taking “the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men” (Philippians 2.7), being “born of a woman, born under the law” (Galatians 4.4).

Notice that when Paul speaks of Jesus “being born in the likeness of men” (Philippians 2.7, c.f. John 1.14) that prior there was a voluntary act of self-emptying on behalf of Christ. If Christ was active in His own “kenosis” (which occurred prior to “being born in the likeness of men”) then this is a strong implication of preexistence. Paul elsewhere write, “For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, so that you by his poverty might become rich” (2 Corinthians 8.9) which also assumes preexistence. A preexistence where Jesus is said to exist in the “form of God” (Philippians 2.6, c.f. John 1.1). That Jesus, who was equal to God, would set aside His own divine prerogatives and enter into creation is the ultimate display of humility that Paul formerly mentions in Philippians 2.3-4.

 

[posthuman]

hat Jesus, who was equal to God, would set aside His own divine prerogatives and enter into creation is the ultimate display of humility that Paul formerly mentions in Philippians 2.3-4.

“Who will you compare Me to, or who is My equal?”
asks the Holy One.
(Isaiah 40:25)

​

​

 

[QuickenedByHim]

This is a topic I am still studying, it's a deep one that I want to look into more before giving my 'definite' answer, but here is what I'm leaning towards believing:

Jesus the Son and God the Father are one in union, but not one in number. (They are 2 separate entities)

The main reason I am leaning towards this conclusion is because of Christ's words that explain a definite difference between Him and the Father:

"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." -Mark 13:32

There is obviously a clear distinction between the two of them, so how can they be the same? (How can Jesus be God with such a bold distinction between Jesus the Son and God the Father as seen here? Blessings.

 

[williamjordan]

This is a topic I am still studying, it's a deep one that I want to look into more before giving my 'definite' answer, but here is what I'm leaning towards believing:

Jesus the Son and God the Father are one in union, but not one in number. (They are 2 separate entities)

The main reason I am leaning towards this conclusion is because of Christ's words that explain a definite difference between Him and the Father:

"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." -Mark 13:32

There is obviously a clear distinction between the two of them, so how can they be the same? (How can Jesus be God with such a bold distinction between Jesus the Son and God the Father as seen here? Blessings.

It helps to understand what is meant when you hear someone refer to Jesus as God.

Automatically people assume that Christians believe that Jesus is the Father. And though there is a small group of unorthodox that believe this, this is not the orthodox, nor the majority view.

I refer you to a post I've made on another thread that can help you understand a bit more fully,

John 1.1 affirms two very essential things. Foremost, notice that the text speaks of the Word existing “with” God. The term used here for “with” is the Greek word πρὸς (pros), which, when followed by a noun in the accusative case, speaks of face-to-face communion, interaction. One does not need to leave the first chapter of John to find examples in which πρὸς signifies a person near or moving towards another person (e.g., 1.29, 42, 47). Of course, this comports well with John 17.5, where Jesus speaks of His pre-existence with the Father. John 1.1 is speaking of two persons.

Finally, we come to “the Word was God.” The term “God” here carries with it a qualitative nuance (i.e., “For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath” vs. “For the Son of Man is the/a Lord of the Sabbath”). Take John 3.6 for example,

“That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”


​

The idea here has absolutely nothing to do with identification of any sort (“the spirit,” “a spirit”), but everything to do with that of predication. More specifically, the nouns (“flesh,” “spirit”) here function in a purely qualitative sense, without a definite or indefinite semantic force. The context of the passage in view is about the inherent nature of sinful flesh (John 3.6a) in contrast to the new nature of man in the process of regeneration (John 3.6b).

That said, the Trinitarian position on John 1.1 is that the text is teaching the equality between the Father, and the Son... that all the qualities, attributes, and nature of God – everything that makes God, God – the Word also possesses. This is why the Greek term for “God” here is anarthrous.

Further, John 1.3 presupposes the eternality of Jesus,

“All things were made through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.” (John 1.3)


​

Hone in on the second part of the passage, “apart from Him nothing has come into being that has come into being.” Christ is being described as the One through whom all things which have “come into being” have their place in existence. Everything that was created; everything that had a starting point in time; everything that has come into existence… all things that “came into being” did so through, or by means of the Word. These are not words that describe a created being, these are words that describe an active, and eternal agent of creation. The Logos is not here identified as one that “came into being,” but the One through whom all things that have “come into being” have their existence. Meaning, if Jesus is created, and Jesus is the One through whom all things that have “come into being” have their existence, then Jesus created Himself.

 

[QuickenedByHim]

It helps to understand what is meant when you hear someone refer to Jesus as God.

Automatically people assume that Christians believe that Jesus is the Father. And though there is a small group of unorthodox that believe this, this is not the orthodox, nor the majority view.

I refer you to a post I've made on another thread that can help you understand a bit more fully,

Sorry but I'm having a difficulty understanding exactly what your thesis is then.. If you say that Jesus the Son and God the Father are equal having the same qualities, then how come only the Father knows when and Jesus the Son doesn't? (Mark 13:32) Those are two different qualities..

 

[posthuman]

Sorry but I'm having a difficulty understanding exactly what your thesis is then.. If you say that Jesus the Son and God the Father are equal having the same qualities, then how come only the Father knows when and Jesus the Son doesn't? (Mark 13:32) Those are two different qualities..

this statement - "no one knows the day or the hour except the father" - is actually an idiomatic Hebrew phrase that is part of the traditional marriage ceremony. to the Jews who heard Him say this, it is an obvious allusion, one that's lost on us, not having any kind of intimate knowledge of the culture.

 

[posthuman]

Sorry but I'm having a difficulty understanding exactly what your thesis is then.. If you say that Jesus the Son and God the Father are equal having the same qualities, then how come only the Father knows when and Jesus the Son doesn't? (Mark 13:32) Those are two different qualities..

we have to come to terms with both the obvious truth that there is a distinction between the Son and the Father and also with the obvious truth that Christ does things that only the Father can do, is attributed qualities, stations and characteristics that are only characteristic of YHWH, and receives glory, worship and praise that can only be given to the Father.

scripture teaches both an equivalency and a distinction. the Father identifies Himself as the Son and the Son as the Father and both distinguish themselves from each other - the Spirit, the Son and the Father are all distinct & divine persons but there is one God and one God only. it is a mystery that isn't reconciled in terms of human thinking and attribution.

proclaiming that Christ is God is not denying that He is the Son and the Father is the Father -- it isn't called 'a mystery' for no reason! -- if you read through this thread, you'll see that most all of the dissent is focused on "but this verse and that verse say He is distinct from the Father:" all of this is true, and none of this negates the rest of scripture that makes Him equal with the Father. it is like, one person says "an elephant has a trunk and a tail" and someone thinks to argue with them, and says "no! an elephant has grey skin!" both are true, and neither negates the other. or closer in analogy, you can say "a zebra has black fur" and another can say "a zebra has white fur" -- the full truth is that a zebra is both black and white, and is only one animal.

i heard a teacher say once, that if you ever sit before a preacher who says that he completely understands the trinity, it's time to get up and start throwing chairs!
gotta say, i don't really disagree with this man.

 

[posthuman]

this one is very complex and rich, and the more you dig into it ((i'm certainly not writing with anything close to a full understanding)) the greater it becomes.
♥

[HR][/HR][HR][/HR]


while being full of Messianic elements, Psalm 68 is about & to YHWH:

Sing unto God, sing praises to his name:
extol him that rideth upon the heavens by his name JAH,
and rejoice before him!
(Psalm 68:4)​

reading further in it, we find it said of Yah:

Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive:
thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also,
that the LORD God might dwell among them.
(Psalm 68:18)​

which you may recognize is identified as speaking of Christ in the NT, here:

​

But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
(Ephesians 4:8-10)

​

which also goes on to explain about who has ascended and descended.
'Who has ascended and descended' - and the ascension and descension is a mystery of scripture that goes back at least to Solomon's time:

The words of Agur the son of Jakeh, even the prophecy: the man spake unto Ithiel, even unto Ithiel and Ucal,
Surely I am more brutish than any man, and have not the understanding of a man. I neither learned wisdom, nor have the knowledge of the holy.
Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended?
Who hath gathered the wind in his fists?
Who hath bound the waters in a garment?
Who hath established all the ends
of the earth?
What is His name, and what is His Son's name, if thou canst tell?
(Proverbs 30:1-4)

​

which identifies the one ho has ascended and descended as having a son -- not as being the son

now, Jesus, some 2,000 years after Agur, answers the question of this great mysterious prophecy while He teaches 'the master of Israel' Nicodemus:

No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven:
the Son of Man.
(John 3:13)
​

so we have 'the One who descended and ascended' identified positively with Jesus Christ, the Son, both by Himself and by Paul, and we have Him identified as Jah, the Father, both by Agur son of Jakeh and by David son of Jesse

this makes Christ equal with Jah - and the One who descended, the Father.
this also means that what is commonly called 'the ascension' of Christ in Acts 1 positively not the first time the Jesus Christ 'ascended' -- because as He says in John 3, no one has ascended except the one who has descended. this destroys immediately any argument that Jesus was merely a man - because He first descended, before He ascended: His origin ((speaking naively as though "The Beginning" could have an origin)) is not on Earth; it cannot be. and of course it cannot be, because as we just saw scripture say, YHWH and the Christ are one, the God of Salvation.

Nicodemus, the teacher of Israel, comes to Jesus and calls Him 'teacher' - Jesus reveals to Him that He is the God of Israel by answering a mystery almost 2,000 years old from scripture, the prophesy of of the great question of Agur: Who has ascended and descended? what is His name and His Son's name?
The Answer: His name is "SALVATION"

 

[joefizz]

This is a topic I am still studying, it's a deep one that I want to look into more before giving my 'definite' answer, but here is what I'm leaning towards believing:

Jesus the Son and God the Father are one in union, but not one in number. (They are 2 separate entities)

The main reason I am leaning towards this conclusion is because of Christ's words that explain a definite difference between Him and the Father:

"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." -Mark 13:32

There is obviously a clear distinction between the two of them, so how can they be the same? (How can Jesus be God with such a bold distinction between Jesus the Son and God the Father as seen here? Blessings.

well if you read this passage more in depth it is speaking of God making the final decision of when Judgement day is,this is not as if to say that Jesus doesn't already know the time,for he foretells that judgement day will occur,but particularly Jesus is saying here that the disciples or even us now are to aware of when Jesus Returns instead of wondering a time or date,that it will,and of course he would speak on this wise because is it not written and said by Jesus"it is not for you to know the time nor the seasons that the lord has put in his own power" when one reads the bible what Jesus spoke was not everytime to be taken literally,but rather"spiritually" for example when Jesus told the disciples to "beware of the leavenbible of the pharisees" they perceived that he meant "bread" and were murmuring about "is it because we brought bread" and Jesus had to explain what he meant for his way that he spake was too much for them to understand,so Nay God,Jesus,and the holy spirit are all one,one must let go of"I know this and I know that to "truly" read the bible and understand it even a little alongside the holy spirit,much of God's word we will never understand but once we begin to accept that we don't understand on our own then we are able to learn from the holy spirit,understanding of God's word,I am glad of many people's efforts to learn God's word the bible,but one must remember that learning isn't all God expects of us but,caring for one another,helping each other,and learning how to be vigilant of Jesus's return for when Jesus speaks on "no man will know" or that Jesus will"come as a thief in the night he is speaking of that when Judgement day arrives there will be no "time" to know when he comes but rather we are to be ever watchful of his return,or to put this is in simple terms when Jesus Returns there is no turning back,no more second thoughts,no more saying God have mercy upon me that will be of use,there will simply be a day that all shall face and what one has chosen on that day shall be final,so if you think of it what Jesus means by anyone not knowing the"time nor day,he is speaking of that it shall occur as if we blinked and missed it,because if you think in depth who will "know" the "time" or "day" on that day?
one can hardly even fathom what will occur that day so you can only imagine that there will be next to no "logical thoughts" in anyone's mind that is lost or for the devil,where as those who have served faithfully for God will have no need of thoughts,only faith.

 

[Blik]

"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." -Mark 13:32

There is obviously a clear distinction between the two of them, so how can they be the same? (How can Jesus be God with such a bold distinction between Jesus the Son and God the Father as seen here? Blessings.

This is from Jewish culture, not scripture, but I think it tells us of the relationship of Father and Son.

Sometimes Jewish fathers who had a son that they trusted to always act just as the father would signed over authorization for the son to act in his place. It did not mean that the Father gave over all his authority to the son, it meant that what the father said, so did the son.

 

[posthuman]

This is from Jewish culture, not scripture, but I think it tells us of the relationship of Father and Son.

Sometimes Jewish fathers who had a son that they trusted to always act just as the father would signed over authorization for the son to act in his place. It did not mean that the Father gave over all his authority to the son, it meant that what the father said, so did the son.

See my post #191 above.
When a Hebrew man was going to be married, it was tradition that I'd anyone ask him when, he would say that no one but his father knows, even though he himself likely knows. Same with the bride - to the betrothed, this is a personal and private, intimate thing, and the idea is that questions about it should be directed to the father who arranges all those details.

Christ is returning for His Bride. When He said this it would have been obvious to the Jews that He was making reference to marriage, and those with ears to hear would see a mystery revealed.

 

[loveme1]

[h=1]1 John 5King James Version (KJV)[/h]5 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.
16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

 

[oldethennew]

we liked what you said Post.

how we thank Jesus for your Love and discernment...

 

[posthuman]

For thus says the Lord GOD:
"Behold, I, I myself will search for my sheep and will seek them out. As a shepherd seeks out his flock when he is among his sheep that have been scattered, so will I seek out my sheep, and I will rescue them from all places where they have been scattered on a day of clouds and thick darkness."
(Ezekiel 34:11-12)

​

the Tetragrammaton is the Hebrew word here: it is YHVH, the only true Living God, Creator of the cosmos.

does it say He will send someone to look for His sheep? or does it ​emphatically say that He, He Himself will search them out, and separate them out from among all the other sheep that are not His own, in every place they are found? who does it say the sheep belong to?

so what claim is Jesus making about Himself when He says things like that He has come to seek & to save His sheep? what is the Spirit that breathed the scripture saying about Christ?

 

[oldethennew]

it's simple, THE SON TAKES-ON THE-NAME-OF-THE FATHER'...