Cessationism vs. continuationism...does it make any difference?

[Nebuchadnezzer]

There are a number of ways of telling whether a miracle is truly from God, including the exercise of the gift of discernment of spirits. We can look at the fruit of someone's life. I am not familiar with the life of St. Anthony. For me personally, I would not want to knowingly eat poison so that I not tempt the Lord, but I do not know how the Lord led the man in this situation. This is also a second or third hand account or less direct than that. Answering your question also does not affect my day to day life.

Whether you know the answer to your question has no bearing on the truth of the Biblical teaching that God gifts some members of the body of Christ to do miracles.

What you are saying is that you don't know if this miracle is genuinely from God or some kind of deception. You displayed a subtle skepticism of it though. So then why even consider trusting it? And I gather you don't trust it.

So if you are reluctant to trust this 2nd or 3rd hand account about St. Anthony of Padua then it is only fair that I also be reluctant of your 2nd and 3rd hand accounts. Yes?

 

[PaulChristensen]

To @Lookupnotback and others on the definitions of 'prophecy' and 'prophesy.'

I do not believe that the general understanding of the word 'prophesy' in Old French was to accurately interpret scripture. I won't believe that until someone shows me an overwhelming number of instances of that in Old French and persuades me that there are not numerous counter examples. The Bible was translated into French in the 1550's, which would be Middle French. I suspect they used the word to translate the concept of the Greek word from which 'prophecy' is derived into Old French using the word.

My guess is your lexicographer who came up with the definition actually think that 'prophesy' means to interpret scripture, and he was reading that concept back into scripture. That is a very sloppy understanding of the word, and not very accurate as to how it is used in scripture.

Most of us on a Bible forum would use 'prophesy', 'prophecy' and 'prophet' to refer to the same types of things the Hebrew and Greek words so translated mean in the text of scripture. We might also allow for the fact that there is a 'secular' definition of prophesy, which means to predict the future, which could even be used in a non-religious context.

If you look up references, usually, the verse 'prophesy' in the Old Testament is often used in cases of predictive prophecy. But it is used of utterances spoken as God moved individuals to speak, who spoke words He gave them to speak. Deuteronomy mentions prophesying in the name of the LORD. Not all prophetic utterances are about the future. For genuine prophetic utterances, the unique characteristic of it is described by Peter when he refers to prophecies of times past, "...holy men of old spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."

The architypical prophecy in the Old Testament is a first person quote from God that may start, "Thus saith the Lord" in some translations. But not all prophecies conform to this pattern, especially in the Psalms.

Someone prophesying, speaking a message from God on this way, could comment on scripture if that is what God has Him say. But commenting on scripture, 'preaching' or 'teaching' are not prophecy per se. Paul lists prophesying, teaching, exhortation, as different spiritual gifts in Romans 12. There is other evidence along these lines in I Corinthians 12 and Ephesians 4.

Some preachers in the Reformed movement equate prophesying with faithful preaching of the scriptures. They get this from John Calvin, who did not have a very accurate understanding of the term based on his commentaries in I Corinthians, though John Calvin's position on this was rather nuanced. To say that he equated preaching scripture with prophecy would not be accurate. His commentary on I Corinthians chapter 12, I think, or possibly 14, explains his view.

Actually, Paul, in 1 Corinthians 14 equated prophecy with sharing insights from Old Testament Scripture as well as bringing a 'revelation'. He says that if someone is speaking and another has a 'revelation' the first speaker should stand aside and let the second one speak. I think that Paul used the word "prophecy' in the wider sense of speaking in fellowship meeting words that were understood so that people were built up in their faith. Paul says that people come together for instruction, and so he used the word prophecy to include that as well.

It was the Pentecostals who defined Prophecy as "giving a prophetic word' in a meeting, which I think narrowed Paul's definition of it. Others have narrowed "prophecy" to just prediction of end time events.

In fact, anything that is done or said that makes Christ real to people is prophetic.

 

[CS1]

Exactly sometimes the deliverance is death.

You really should do something about the projection of hate issues you display. Physical death is just a doorway to eternal life for the believer.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

LOL, I have passed from death unto life. Jesu said I have come to give you life and more of it. Not death!. You are a troll hypocrite who has hate, not me. That is why you are still here because were long-suffering from your foolishness. You looking for death please go right ahead.

I will not call on you to pray for me when I am sick I can tell you that.

 

[Lookupnotback]

My goodness, look at all the reply's and actions.....somebody’s getting worked up, would you please heal my bruised toe for me with a laying on of hands and some turkey talk?-)

 

[CS1]

My goodness, look at all the reply's and actions.....somebody’s getting worked up, would you please heal my bruised toe for me with a laying on of hands and some turkey talk?-)

mock and scoff all you want.

 

[Lookupnotback]

mock and scoff all you want.

....i don’t mean to challenge the healer’s abilities? But it seems i need new boots or to tie them up, it’s 4 bruised toes actually

 

[Lookupnotback]

mock and scoff all you want.

To be fair? I have witnessed a number of miracles in my lifetime and to me a dirty dog who deserves nothing of the sort. But never was i being so bold as to call upon them as if i had some great power over nature.....that is where we differ. Like honestly? Who am i? Many look for but one sign to set their heart at ease, and i have been spared countless awful situations and early death, and why? To challenge the babies on milk and their faith? I don’t know but for never have i been so bold as to think i can command such things.....but discernment is a gift i have been given and continuationists in their emotionalism’s always get my radar a blipping....charlatan alert! Charlatan alert!

 

[Dino246]

....i don’t mean to challenge the healer’s abilities?

Those who are gifted with healing don't operate the gift on their own whim, any more than those who prophesy do so when they feel like it.

 

[PaulChristensen]

....i don’t mean to challenge the healer’s abilities? But it seems i need new boots or to tie them up, it’s 4 bruised toes actually

That's what you get from kicking against sound doctrine!

 

[PaulChristensen]

To be fair? I have witnessed a number of miracles in my lifetime and to me a dirty dog who deserves nothing of the sort. But never was i being so bold as to call upon them as if i had some great power over nature.....that is where we differ. Like honestly? Who am i? Many look for but one sign to set their heart at ease, and i have been spared countless awful situations and early death, and why? To challenge the babies on milk and their faith? I don’t know but for never have i been so bold as to think i can command such things.....but discernment is a gift i have been given and continuationists in their emotionalism’s always get my radar a blipping....charlatan alert! Charlatan alert!

Actually, if we read the book of Acts carefully, the miracles of healing occurred in the context of the evangelism of the pagans to show that Jesus Christ has more power than their demonic gods. The same happens today among pagan people of the third world, and neo pagans of our societies.

But the gifts of healing are not for the self indulgence of Christian people who are already saved. James has his instructions for church members: "If any sick among you, call for the elders of the church, etc." Therefore, the ministry of prayer for healing is for the elders of the church, not for a single "man of faith and power."

And it not the elders calling upon the people to receive prayer. It is the other way around. The sick person calls for the elders of the church.

 

[Lanolin]

if you dont have gifts, count yourself blessed because you live in a world where gifts arent needed and you have them already at your disposal. You dont need a gift. You can afford things. You probably have enough money that can buy you anything you desire. You are rich.

Its the poor that need the gospel and the broken hearted who need healing.

 

[presidente]

Actually, Paul, in 1 Corinthians 14 equated prophecy with sharing insights from Old Testament Scripture as well as bringing a 'revelation'. He says that if someone is speaking and another has a 'revelation' the first speaker should stand aside and let the second one speak. I think that Paul used the word "prophecy' in the wider sense of speaking in fellowship meeting words that were understood so that people were built up in their faith. Paul says that people come together for instruction, and so he used the word prophecy to include that as well.

It was the Pentecostals who defined Prophecy as "giving a prophetic word' in a meeting, which I think narrowed Paul's definition of it. Others have narrowed "prophecy" to just prediction of end time events.

In fact, anything that is done or said that makes Christ real to people is prophetic.

I think you may be reading idea the of Bible commentary into those verses in I Corinthians 14. Paul wrote receiving revelation, apokolupse, in another passage, II Corinthians 12. That is where he talked about being caught up into the third heaven.

I am not saying the Spirit could not prophetically reveal something about the Old Testament. Revelation involves receiving supernatural insight. That could be on any matter the Spirit wishes to reveal it. Prophecy involves the Spirit moving individuals to speak.

 

[presidente]

What you are saying is that you don't know if this miracle is genuinely from God or some kind of deception. You displayed a subtle skepticism of it though. So then why even consider trusting it? And I gather you don't trust it.

So if you are reluctant to trust this 2nd or 3rd hand account about St. Anthony of Padua then it is only fair that I also be reluctant of your 2nd and 3rd hand accounts. Yes?

Hagiographies were often written generations later. I mentioned eye witness testimonies.

 

[presidente]

My goodness, look at all the reply's and actions.....somebody’s getting worked up, would you please heal my bruised toe for me with a laying on of hands and some turkey talk?-)

According to your faith be it unto you.

If that happened, would you end up healed or with more bruised toes?

 

[presidente]

Actually, if we read the book of Acts carefully, the miracles of healing occurred in the context of the evangelism of the pagans to show that Jesus Christ has more power than their demonic gods. The same happens today among pagan people of the third world, and neo pagans of our societies.

But the gifts of healing are not for the self indulgence of Christian people who are already saved. James has his instructions for church members: "If any sick among you, call for the elders of the church, etc." Therefore, the ministry of prayer for healing is for the elders of the church, not for a single "man of faith and power."

And it not the elders calling upon the people to receive prayer. It is the other way around. The sick person calls for the elders of the church.

The Bible shows that there are many ways healing can occur. The sick can call for the elders of the church. God can heal through prayers of saints, even if they aren't elders, as Christians confess their sins and pray for one another. God may heal through evangelists in an evangelistic scenario. God may heal through members of the body of Christ who have spiritual gifts. It is quite likely that James was an early book, written before I Corinthians 12.

 

[Lookupnotback]

That's what you get from kicking against sound doctrine!

....no, it’s what you get for not tying up your boots!-)

 

[Lookupnotback]

Actually, if we read the book of Acts carefully, the miracles of healing occurred in the context of the evangelism of the pagans to show that Jesus Christ has more power than their demonic gods. The same happens today among pagan people of the third world, and neo pagans of our societies.

But the gifts of healing are not for the self indulgence of Christian people who are already saved. James has his instructions for church members: "If any sick among you, call for the elders of the church, etc." Therefore, the ministry of prayer for healing is for the elders of the church, not for a single "man of faith and power."

And it not the elders calling upon the people to receive prayer. It is the other way around. The sick person calls for the elders of the church.

No, it is sin sickness the passage you quote is about, you still miss it with the need for emotionalism to make you feel special.

 

[Lookupnotback]

According to your faith be it unto you.

If that happened, would you end up healed or with more bruised toes?

I would not be asking for healing for such a thing in the 1st place, that is just emotional trip’n. I take what the good Lord allows me and grow from out of that as per his intent and not looking for the quick fix out of a thing.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Cessationism comes from an AntiChrist spirit.

No it does not, and there is no reason to make such a false accusation. It is clear from (1) Scripture, (2) Church History, and (3) actual churches in our time, that certain spiritual gifts have been terminated by God for very specific reasons.

APOSTLES: The Bible says that there are only twelve apostles of the Lamb, and it is only those twelve who will sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Have God and Christ decreed to themselves only twelve apostles? Absolutely.

PROPHETS: The apostle John was the last apostle-prophet, and he clearly stated that no prophecies could be further added to the prophetic book of Revelation (the final book in numerical order and chronological order). Paul said that prophecies would cease, therefore Christians should not be looking for prophets, or they will be deceived by false prophets.

TONGUES: Had the King James translators consistently translated the Greek words glossa/glosssais as "languages" there would have been no need for a modern tongues movement. The Bible tells us that this gift was a sign gift for unbelieving Jews. And the languages spoken in Acts 2 were real human languages spoken supernaturally by Galileans. This gift was operational in the apostolic churches, but here again Paul said that tongues would cease, and cease they did. Church History proves that for about 19 centuries the gift of tongues was not being manifested in churches. Even when tongues were operational Paul said that he would rather speak 5 intelligible words of prophecy than 10,000 words in tongues.

It was only in the early 20th century that the tongues movement began, and later on it became the Charismatic Movement. The very fact that Pentecostalism insists that only those who speak in tongues are Spirit-filled gives the lie to this doctrine.

"KNOWLEDGE": Since ordinary knowledge is not in view, and scientific discoveries have been made hundreds of times, Paul was speaking about supernatural knowledge given to apostles and prophets while the New Testament was still being completed.

Many times in Scripture we find that Paul uses the word "I" to make a ruling. But that is not his personal opinion, but the Holy Spirit giving him a revelation or knowledge about specific matters. Peter commended Paul for the "wisdom" that he had while writing his epistles. However Paul said that this knowledge would cease, and it did cease when the Bible was completed. No one today may dare speak with the same authority. Indeed the Apostolic Fathers (2nd century) never placed themselves on the same level as the apostles and prophets.

HEALINGS AND MIRACLES (SIGNS AND WONDERS): There was a very specific reason for these gifts (given primarily to the apostles and their companions): How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will? (Heb 2:3,4)

So God was testifying to the divine origin of the Gospel and the power of the apostles by enabling them to do signs, wonders, and miracles. We see this immediately in Acts when Peter and John healed the lame man outside the temple with just a word. And it was only the apostles, prophets. and their companions who did these miracles. But a time came when even Paul could not heal either Epaphroditus or Timothy via the gift of healing, and they all resorted to prayer. Eventually James made it clear that for Christians to seek any kind of healing they must approach the elders of the church and ask for the prayer of faith.

This still leaves the Church with many spiritual gifts today: evangelists, pastors, teachers, rulers ("governments"), exhorters, helpers, liberal or generous Christians (liberality is a spiritual gift), wise Christians, Christians with extraordinary faith (the gift of faith as opposed to saving faith) etc. And the Bible says that the just shall live by faith.

 

[PaulChristensen]

I think you may be reading idea the of Bible commentary into those verses in I Corinthians 14. Paul wrote receiving revelation, apokolupse, in another passage, II Corinthians 12. That is where he talked about being caught up into the third heaven.

I am not saying the Spirit could not prophetically reveal something about the Old Testament. Revelation involves receiving supernatural insight. That could be on any matter the Spirit wishes to reveal it. Prophecy involves the Spirit moving individuals to speak.

I just had a good read of the chapter and came to my own conclusion about what Paul defined as prophecy. If the Holy Spirit speaks through a sermon or message wouldn't that be prophetic. What about a sermon where the Holy Spirit doesn't speak? Wouldn't that be a man-dreamed sermon?

I have had the experience of being a visitor in a church of 400 people on five random Sunday evenings, and the preacher preached on basically the same topic each time I was there. It seemed that he had read my mail, and yet he didn't know me from a bar of soap. His messages changed my whole way of thinking, and was a real healing in my spirit. It seems that he was speaking directly to me, but I realised that it was the Holy Spirit speaking to me through him. If that is not prophecy, then what is it?