Cessationism vs. continuationism...does it make any difference?

[PaulChristensen]

I think Paul is using the term a bit more narrowly, or of 'prophecy per se.' I understand your perspective. If prophecy is Spirit-moved speech, then it can pop up in teaching or exhortation. But on the other hand, Paul treats prophets and teachers as two ministries in I Corinthians 12. Evangelists, prophets, pastors and teachers are three different ministry groups in Ephesians 4. In Romans 12, prophecy, teaching, and exhortation are different gifts. Paul does not roll them all into the same gift.

If what you are saying is true, then pastors should be careful about preaching long sermons and should let others who receive revelations to interrupt their sermons with them, or rather yield the floor to the other sitting by who receives a revelation that Paul refers to in I Corinthians 14:29.

The idea that the long 30 to 45 minute sermons, or more, is sacred, may not be interrupted and is THE way to do church is not in scripture. Paul gives us I Corinthians 14 as pretty much the only lengthy chapter regarding how to administrate 'speaking ministry' in church, and there is no reference to a long sermon and no instruction that an elder, pastor, bishop must do the talking. The teacher is the one gifted to do so.

I am a part of a house church, so the idea of a mutually edifying meeting is a norm. In a lot of house churches, applying what you say to the Bible teaching can work. But I view Paul's use of 'prophecy' as anchored very much in the Old Testament, consistent with its usage in Acts about Agabus, which is consistent with the general pattern of how Old Testament prophets prophesied.

In support of your insightful post:
Unfortunately there is no Scriptural user manual for the five-fold ministries, and so there have been differences of opinion and practice about how these ministries are to be performed.

Because Paul had only the Old Testament Scriptures as the basis of his teaching, and the revelation the Holy Spirit gave him that is reflected in his letters, his definition of "prophet" would have been according to the Old Testament model. This model did not consist in someone getting zapped with a revelation from God and speaking it out. When the Word of God came to a prophet it was more in the form of teaching and exhortation and announcements concerning what God was going to do in the future. It is true that often the prophet himself said things under the inspiration of the Spirit that he didn't fully understand, especially things that were to happen way into the future. So, the prophet was a combination of preacher, exhorter, and predictor of the future. He was the voice of conscience for the nation of Israel.

So, Paul quite easily have seen the New Testament prophet ministry as the voice of conscience for the church. He did not see anything like the "prophet for the nation' that some think they are in these modern days. Although Agabus predicted a famine, the prophecy was not for the pagan Romans. It was directed to the church, so his example would not support those who think they are 'prophets for America' today.

Even though the church today is split up into different denominations. It is still possible for the prophet ministry to operate. A believer can have that ministry as the voice of conscience for his denomination, even though it may not be recognised by others.

The ministry of Teacher is the one that spends the time giving insights into God's Word. I can sit all day in a teaching conference and enjoy every minute of it, because of the ministry of teaching the speaker has. But 20 minutes of the pastor's message on a Sunday morning is long enough for me. Not every pastor or minister has the ministry of teaching.

 

[PaulChristensen]

the only reason why God did miracles :

1. To provide to those who served other gods HE is the only One true God
2. He loves and is merciful
3. To Testify to the resurrected Lord Acts 4:33

And He does them today for exactly the same reasons. We are still in the church age. This means that the same Holy Spirit power is available to our modern church as it was in the early 1st century church.

The reason why we don't see that power often manifested is due to the lack of commitment to Christ, low standards of holiness, party spirit, and pagan practices - all in our churches. And the main one: many churches just don't believe that the power of the Holy Spirit as was seen in the 1st Century church is available to today, because it ceased when the canon of Scripture was completed.

So, it is the church itself that is the enemy of faith. It is so indoctrinated with unbelief, that the Holy Spirit can't do much except stand back and watch churches and whole denominations go into decline, and the occult, paganism, lawlessness, and the works of the flesh take over from the church in our western society.

The church is the sleeping giant that won't get out of bed and get going on the mission it was commissioned for.

 

[CS1]

And He does them today for exactly the same reasons. We are still in the church age. This means that the same Holy Spirit power is available to our modern church as it was in the early 1st century church.

The reason why we don't see that power often manifested is due to the lack of commitment to Christ, low standards of holiness, party spirit, and pagan practices - all in our churches. And the main one: many churches just don't believe that the power of the Holy Spirit as was seen in the 1st Century church is available to today, because it ceased when the canon of Scripture was completed.

So, it is the church itself that is the enemy of faith. It is so indoctrinated with unbelief, that the Holy Spirit can't do much except stand back and watch churches and whole denominations go into decline, and the occult, paganism, lawlessness, and the works of the flesh take over from the church in our western society.

The church is the sleeping giant that won't get out of bed and get going on the mission it was commissioned for.

I agree He does them today

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

Because signs are linked to the gospel of the kingdom and Israel.

Amen! And INFIRMITIES for "The POWER Of CHRIST" are linked
To The Gospel Of GRACE, And The Body Of CHRIST! Amen?:

God's ALL-Sufficient GRACE in infirmities {Especially #3 below...}

Grace And Peace to All Precious friend(s), Dear readers,
and, diligent students of God's Holy Word! Praying Hopefully
The Following Scriptures Will Bring God's "Peace, Hope, And
Comfort" into your life in This Current Dispensation Of The
Amazing GRACE Of A Wonderful God!:

(1) In That GRACE, God, In HIS Omniscience, Had Already
Chosen HIS Own In CHRIST, And Already Knew What
"infirmities, trouble, trials, afflictions, sufferings, And
persecutions we would go through,” And, Thank HIM, HE
"Promised" HE Will Never Give us more testing than
we can handle. (Ephesians_1:4; 1_Corinthians_10:13 KJB!)
Amen?

(2) Please, Precious friend(s):
Thank God IN {easy}, And, Also, FOR {Difficult?}, ALL things!
(1_Thessalonians_5:18; Ephesians_5:20 KJB!)

(3) After Paul (our #"pattern"# for Today!), prayed 3 times
for his affliction, the "Answer he Received," According To The
Scriptures, Was:

"And HE {CHRIST} Said Unto me, MY GRACE Is Sufficient For
thee: For MY Strength Is Made Perfect in weakness. Most gladly
therefore will I rather glory {cp} in my infirmities, that The
Power Of CHRIST May Rest Upon me!"
(2_Corinthians_12:9 KJB!) {cp 2_Corinthians_11:23-30 KJB!}

(4) "For our light affliction, which Is But For A Moment, worketh
for us a Far More Exceeding And Eternal weight of glory; While
we look Not at the things which are seen, but at the things
Which Are Not Seen: for the things which are seen [are]
temporal; but the things Which Are Not Seen Are Eternal!"
(2_Corinthians_4:17-18 KJB!)

(5) "For I reckon that The Sufferings of this PRESENT Time
are not worthy to be compared with The Glory which shall be
revealed in us. For the earnest EXPECTation of the creature
WAITeth for the manifestation of the sons of God...

...ourselves also, which have The Firstfruits Of The Spirit,
even we ourselves groan within ourselves, WAITING for
The Adoption, to wit, The Redemption Of our body!"
(Romans_8:18, 19, 23 KJB!) Blessed Hope! Amen?

(6) "Therefore being justified by faith, we have Peace with
God through our LORD JESUS CHRIST: By Whom also we
have access by faith into This GRACE Wherein we stand,
and rejoice in Hope of The Glory of God.

And not only so, but we glory {cp} in tribulations also: knowing
that tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience;
and experience, Hope: And Hope maketh not ashamed; because
The Love Of God Is Shed Abroad in our hearts By The Holy Ghost
Which Is Given Unto us!"
(Romans_5:1-5 KJB!) {cp 2_Corinthians_11:23-30 KJB!}

(7!) ”And HE That Searcheth the hearts Knoweth What Is The
Mind Of The Spirit, Because HE Maketh Intercession for the
saints According To The Will Of God. Likewise The Spirit Also
Helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray
for as we ought: But The Spirit Itself Maketh Intercession
For us with groanings which cannot be uttered!”
(Romans_8:27-28 KJB!)

(8!) "Blessed Be God, Even The Father Of our LORD JESUS CHRIST,
The Father Of Mercies, And The God of ALL Comfort; Who Comforteth
us in All our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which
are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves Are
Comforted Of God!" (2_Corinthians_1:3-4 KJB!)

(9!) Please, always be “watching, Patiently waiting And Looking For”
That Blessed HOPE, The Imminent Return Of our LORD To Take us
Home To HEAVEN, In GLORIFICATION! {Thus, ENDING ALL of our
"infirmities, trouble, trials, afflictions, sufferings, And persecutions!”}
(Ephesians_6:18; 1_Corinthians_15:51-57; 2_Corinthians_5:1-9;
2_Thessalonians_4:13-18 KJB!) = WONDERFUL Comfort! Amen?

(10) ”And we know That All things Work Together For Good To
them that love God, to them who Are The Called According To
HIS Purpose!” (Romans_8:28 KJB!)

(11a) Please memorize 2 Timothy_4:8 KJB!:

"Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness,
which The LORD, The Righteous Judge, Shall Give me At That Day:
and not to me only, but unto all them also that love HIS Appearing!"

(11b) Please Prayerfully/Carefully study 1_Corinthians_3:8-15 KJB!,
And "know" that, At "That Day {The JUDGMENT Seat}” Of CHRIST,
In HEAVEN, ALL "good works of preaching The Gospel of GRACE,
studying The Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided, and, loving/helping others"
WILL Surely Be "rewarded As gold, silver, And precious stones!"
Amen?

(12) For ALL those who humbly:
Trust CHRIST As their Personal SAVIOUR, The Bible Says:

a): “For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of
power, and of love, and of a sound mind.”
(2_Timothy_1:7 KJB!)

b): “Be careful [anxious] for nothing; but in every thing by
prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests
be made known unto God. And the PEACE Of God, Which Passeth
all understanding, Shall Keep your hearts and minds through
CHRIST JESUS.

Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are True, whatsoever
things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever
things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever
things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there
be any praise, think on these things.”
(Philippians_4:6-8 KJB!)

Q: God, Under GRACE Tells us to think on Israel's signs/healings/miracles, etc.? OR:
On All of the above "Body Of CHRIST" Infirmities Passages Of Truth?

c): # “Those things, which ye have both learned, and
received, and heard, and seen in me, [Paul!] do: # And
The God Of PEACE Shall Be With you.”
(Philippians_4:9 KJB!)

Conclusion, for ALL of the “just who live BY FAITH {UNseen!}
and NOT by sight" {temporal signs, wonders, etc…}:

"For unto you It Is Given in the Behalf Of CHRIST, not only
to believe on HIM, But Also to suffer for HIS Sake!"
(Philippians_1:29 KJB!) { Good-Bye to continuationism? }
------------------------------
Again, ALL Precious friends, please:
Always Be Very Richly Blessed In The LORD And Saviour, JESUS CHRIST!

Precious friend(s), see you In God's Great GloryLand!! ♫ ↑

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

Hagiographies were often written generations later. I mentioned eye witness testimonies.

I feel you are dodging. I want to see if you will attempt to dodge this example: "Miracle of the Sun".

You wrote, "There are a number of ways of telling whether a miracle is truly from God"

So please tell me if the Miracle of the Sun is truly from God or if it is a false miracle.

According to many [eye] witnesses, after a period of rain, the dark clouds broke and the Sun appeared as an opaque, spinning disc in the sky. It was said to be significantly duller than normal, and to cast multicolored lights across the landscape, the people, and the surrounding clouds. The Sun was then reported to have careened towards the Earth before zig-zagging back to its normal position.[18][19] Witnesses reported that their previously wet clothes became "suddenly and completely dry, as well as the wet and muddy ground that had been previously soaked because of the rain that had been falling".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun

 

[presidente]

So i am to just stand by as you emotionally trip yourself out and not warn you of Jesus words???
Matthew 7:21-23 21"Not everyone who says to me, 'LORD, LORD,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'LORD, LORD, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Is lying about people doing the Father's will? Is being a false accuser God's will? Is making broad assumptions that group people together and attributes characteristics to them, and accusing them of sin based on this the Father's will?

Is your saying someone is like satan for saying prophesying is not always predicting the future, then your posting the same idea the Father's will? What kind of fruit are you bearing.

This passage you quote comes after verses warning against false prophets. But Jesus also said, as recorded in the same book, that He would send prophets. So He wasn't saying being a prophet is wrong, or a miracle worker. Jesus did miracles and empowered the apostles to do them as well.

 

[presidente]

There are certainly gifts of healing as specified in 1 Corinthians 12, and they are given to the body of Christ for strengthening, and not for building up the reputation of any one big-name fellow. Also, we need to bring James 5:14 into the equation to see that the gifts of healing is administered through the elders of the church in response to requests from those who are sick who call upon them. This is the Scriptural way that divine healing is available for Christian believers.

The very next verse says to 'Confess your faults one to another and pray one for another that ye may be healed.' So even in James 5, healing is not the exclusive domain of the elders. People can be healed through the anointing with oil of elders (possibly accompanied by the confession of sin), prayer and confession of sin with one another, through the ministry of evangelists like Philip, or through the laying on of hands of brethren like Ananias in Acts.

I Corinthians 12 was likely written after James 5. If we look at Acts 14-15 and for hints in the epistles, the apostles preached the Gospel and churches formed and started functioning without appointed elders to pastor them. We do not know if Corinth had elders yet or not. If a believer is given the gift of healing and he is not an elder, he should be a good steward of his gift and use it. Peter says to minister gifts one to another as good stewards of the manifold grace of God in I Peter 4.

This is different to the signs and wonders, including miraculous healing in connection with mission. This is where the Gospel is preached and the miracles follow to show the power of the Holy Spirit as He works with those who reach out to sinners for Christ.

Where does Tabitha being raised from the dead fit in there? It seems to fit in both of your categories.

 

[presidente]

I feel you are dodging. I want to see if you will attempt to dodge this example: "Miracle of the Sun".

You wrote, "There are a number of ways of telling whether a miracle is truly from God"

So please tell me if the Miracle of the Sun is truly from God or if it is a false miracle.

According to many [eye] witnesses, after a period of rain, the dark clouds broke and the Sun appeared as an opaque, spinning disc in the sky. It was said to be significantly duller than normal, and to cast multicolored lights across the landscape, the people, and the surrounding clouds. The Sun was then reported to have careened towards the Earth before zig-zagging back to its normal position.[18][19] Witnesses reported that their previously wet clothes became "suddenly and completely dry, as well as the wet and muddy ground that had been previously soaked because of the rain that had been falling".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun

I am suspicious of anything that smacks of 'Marian apparitions.' Miracles should point to Christ and not bowing down to statues that are made to represent His mother. But God may do what He wills and I do not know all that was going on there.

Beyond that, I don't care to read up on this. There are probably thousands of such claims. I'm not ministering to someone who is into this stuff, and I have better things to do with my time.

Your questions are irrelevant to the topic. If you can present some ancient or relatively recent historical claim to a miracle to me, and I cannot tell based on whatever evidence you present whether the account is legit or the explanation behind it, that detracts nothing at all from the teaching of scripture that the Spirit gifts certain members of the body of Christ to work miracles.

If you do not believe in miracles because it is difficult for you to tell whether they are from God or not, that would be a very foolish reason for unbelief. Early Christians could have to discern such things, and that did not mean the apostles were not doing miracles. Not believing in miracles out of __fear__ that you might wrongly discern if you were to allow yourself to believe such things as possible is irrational also.

 

[presidente]

There are certainly gifts of healing as specified in 1 Corinthians 12, and they are given to the body of Christ for strengthening, and not for building up the reputation of any one big-name fellow.

But it could be a side effect. God told Abraham that He would make his name great. It was God's choice to do so. God may choose individuals that He wants to be famous for whatever purpose.

 

[Lookupnotback]

this is true as those who blasphemy the Holy Spirit. And have a form of godliness BUT DENY the POWER THEREOF.

Including those who are lukewarm

....don’t forget those in deep over their heads in earning reputation by appearances of Godliness and truly think they are his, only God knows a man heart. Where is your heart and why livers of charismatic chaos?

 

[Lookupnotback]

Is lying about people doing the Father's will? Is being a false accuser God's will? Is making broad assumptions that group people together and attributes characteristics to them, and accusing them of sin based on this the Father's will?

Is your saying someone is like satan for saying prophesying is not always predicting the future, then your posting the same idea the Father's will? What kind of fruit are you bearing.

This passage you quote comes after verses warning against false prophets. But Jesus also said, as recorded in the same book, that He would send prophets. So He wasn't saying being a prophet is wrong, or a miracle worker. Jesus did miracles and empowered the apostles to do them as well.

...well, yah! Exactly! Why is it you have to do what you do? What truly motivates your actions? Feeding of self? Or selflessness?

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

If you are short on cash and need to buy something, do you think it is unholy to pray for provision as a 'quick fix.' I've prayed about receiving $400 before, and someone gave it, unsolicited, maybe an hour or so later. I needed money, and God provided.

I have heard people talk about how they pray to St. Anthony to find something that is lost and that it works all the time. In fact they boast in a similar way to how you boast.

So how do you know that it wasn't Satan who provided the $400?

 

[Guojing]

In Acts 28:31, Paul said that he preached the kingdom of God.

Is this your reasoning?

Since Paul preached the Kingdom of God
and Jesus also preached the Kingdom of God

Therefore Jesus and Paul must be preaching the same gospel?

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

Let me ask you, if an atheist insisted that Christ did not rise from the dead because you could not take him physically to Christ and show him Jesus' hands and feet, does that prove that Jesus did not rise from the dead?

You, hopefully, accept the testimony of witnesses, recorded in the New Testament and believe because of the grace of God.

Don't be lazy. Do your own research. There are at least hundreds of supernatural healings on popular social media video networks online. You can check out their veracity for yourself. If I did show you a video, my guess is you would reject the video as being false. If there were a video of someone's arm growing back-- and I have not seen that particular thing online-- then you would most likely reject it or ask for another video-- moving a goal post.

Your approach to this topic is like that of a loud-mouth atheist's toward the topic of the resurrection.

I have seen a few academic papers about supernatural healing and things of that nature. I have not read Bible scholar Craig Keener's 1200+ book on Miracles yet. He dealt with David Hume's historical, and circular, argument that miracles are not real because they are not part of human experience. Hume rejected a well-documented case in the French royal family because, well, such things do not happen... and they are French. Keener started his book at a footnote to address this type of reasoning and the claim that New Testament miracles were embellishments by showing that claims of miracles existed throughout various eras. From what I understand, his book contains numerous examples from history and modern times.

As I suspected YOU ARE RECKLESS!

You are making equal the witness of today's sinners to the witness of God's Holy and perfect Word.

 

[presidente]

...well, yah! Exactly! Why is it you have to do what you do? What truly motivates your actions? Feeding of self? Or selflessness?

What is it that motivates you to slander others and accuse people of things that you recklessly assume are true, but are not? Is it a lack of knowledge? It should not be after this discussion. Is it a lack of wisdom? A lack of the fear of the Lord?

 

[presidente]

As I suspected YOU ARE RECKLESS!

You are making equal the witness of today's sinners to the witness of God's Holy and perfect Word.

You are the one being reckless in this thread. I read that convoluted post of yours, asserting things contrary to scripture in your attempt to conform the teaching of scripture to your theory.

Who are "today's sinners.' I posted about a book that referenced surveys of large numbers of Christians, many of whom testified to having experienced miracles. It also dealt with historical references to Christian miracles in past centuries. Are those 'today's sinners'?

 

[Lookupnotback]

What is it that motivates you to slander others and accuse people of things that you recklessly assume are true, but are not? Is it a lack of knowledge? It should not be after this discussion. Is it a lack of wisdom? A lack of the fear of the Lord?

Your love of gifts that are not your’s to have is what i am warning you about, the thing God hates the most in worship is the disrespect of the Holy Spirit, and that is all your focus is here, justifying the abuse of things that are not yours to have and claiming the Holy Spirit is in it blessing your actions.

 

[presidente]

....don’t forget those in deep over their heads in earning reputation by appearances of Godliness and truly think they are his, only God knows a man heart.

Where is your heart and why livers of charismatic chaos?

That's word salad there at the end.

I also realize now your approach is a little similar in some ways to the author of 'Charismatic Chaos' . He's more scholarly in how he talks, but MacArthur picks wild examples and presents them as normative. He also takes examples that are more in line with the word and rejects them based on his philosophy about the role of scripture, not the teaching of scripture itself. In one of your videos, he talked about a conversation where the commentators were probably joking a bit, and presents that as indicative of Charismatic theology. Yet he and his fellow preachers will do discussion sessions at their conferences and make ironic and joking comments themselves and post the whole thing on YouTube. The audience realizes its a joke, but when he quoted Charismatics, he treats such things as serious.

One of his books opened up with a story about the shrine of the holy tortilla or the church of the holy tortilla with a tortilla that supposedly had something that looked like the face of Jesus. As someone raised Pentecostal, that kind of stuff would be very foreign to people in any church I've attended, not something we would go for.

Not all Pentecostals or Charismatics are into seeker sensitive stuff. If a church gets too far into it, it doesn't resemble a Pentecostal or Charismatic church any more. Joel Osteen's dad was Pentecostal, but he doesn't sound like one if you listen to him preach. It's not the same emphasis or doctrine.

But you don't know about that. You've got this cartoon stereotype in your mind that anyone who believes in spiritual gifts is emotion driven and fakes back healings. There may be some fake healers, especially people hawking weird gimicks on TV with a greedy message. But a lot of preachers who lay hands on the sick are putting just lay hands on people and pray for them and believe God to heal.

 

[presidente]

Is this your reasoning?

Since Paul preached the Kingdom of God
and Jesus also preached the Kingdom of God

Therefore Jesus and Paul must be preaching the same gospel?

Paul also said if anyone preach any other Gospel, let him be accursed.

 

[presidente]

Your love of gifts that are not your’s to have is what i am warning you about, the thing God hates the most in worship is the disrespect of the Holy Spirit, and that is all your focus is here, justifying the abuse of things that are not yours to have and claiming the Holy Spirit is in it blessing your actions.

I find your attitude toward the gifts of the Spirit, described in scripture, to be disrespectful.

The difference between us is that what I am saying lines up with scriptures. What you have posted in this thread does not. I have shown scriptures that support what I am saying. You haven't. You have accused people of having wrong attitudes without evidence at all.

The Bible says to earnestly desire spiritual gifts... in a chapter that describes the gifts you reject. Do you obey that command of scripture?


Let us look at some other scripture:

I Corinthians 12
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.
(NKJV)

The Bible says the Spirit gives to one the word of wisdom... to another the working of miracles....to another different kinds of tongues. You would have me believe that He does not. Which should I believe? You or the Bible?