Be Perfect As Your Heavenly Father Is Perfect.
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"perfect" means "perfect" in any context.
No; it isn't; and I have explained how it isn't. Now you are either here to argue or you are here to learn.
Basically what I have been saying.
1 John 1:7 tells us that the Lord is able to cleanse us from all sin. Romans 6:6 tells us that the body of sin can be destroyed; and Colossians 2:11 tells us that the body of the sins of the flesh can be put off from us.
Those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires (Galatians 5:24).
We are not obligated, therefore, to obey the flesh (Romans 8:12 (kjv, NLT)).
A person is utterly sinful in the flesh 24/7.
We do not have to obey the flesh but can walk according to the Spirit (Romans 8:1,4 (kjv)).
No; for while sin is rendered dead, it still exists within our mortal flesh. We simply don't have to obey the sin nature because it is rendered dead (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8).
If we become "sinless" it is only in practice; however in that, it should be clear that the element of sin is not eradicated from the body; and therefore we are not truly "sinless".
What I mean by perfect is that we begin to walk in perfect obedience because the element of sin has been rendered dead within the body; which makes it very much easier to walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit.
No; it isn't; and I have explained how it isn't. Now you are either here to argue or you are here to learn.
Basically what I have been saying.
1 John 1:7 tells us that the Lord is able to cleanse us from all sin. Romans 6:6 tells us that the body of sin can be destroyed; and Colossians 2:11 tells us that the body of the sins of the flesh can be put off from us.
Those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires (Galatians 5:24).
We are not obligated, therefore, to obey the flesh (Romans 8:12 (kjv, NLT)).
A person is utterly sinful in the flesh 24/7.
We do not have to obey the flesh but can walk according to the Spirit (Romans 8:1,4 (kjv)).
No; for while sin is rendered dead, it still exists within our mortal flesh. We simply don't have to obey the sin nature because it is rendered dead (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8).
If we become "sinless" it is only in practice; however in that, it should be clear that the element of sin is not eradicated from the body; and therefore we are not truly "sinless".
What I mean by perfect is that we begin to walk in perfect obedience because the element of sin has been rendered dead within the body; which makes it very much easier to walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit.
Of course, in the kjv is puts it this way:
Mat 7:28, And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
Mat 7:29, For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.
It should be clear that Jesus' disciples were people.
While it may be true that when it says people here, it may indeed be referring to a multitude who had gathered in after His disciples were settled on the Mount.
Mat 7:28, And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
Mat 7:29, For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.
It should be clear that Jesus' disciples were people.
While it may be true that when it says people here, it may indeed be referring to a multitude who had gathered in after His disciples were settled on the Mount.
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When Jesus saw the crowds, He went up on the mountain and sat down.
The crowds were there from the beginning. Why assume otherwise?
You seem to have an agenda.
New International Version
When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching,
New Living Translation
When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching,
English Standard Version
And when Jesus finished these sayings, the crowds were astonished at his teaching,
Berean Study Bible
When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were astonished at His teaching,
Berean Literal Bible
And it came to pass, when Jesus had finished these words, the crowds were astonished at His teaching.
King James Bible
And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
New King James Version
And so it was, when Jesus had ended these sayings, that the people were astonished at His teaching,
New American Standard Bible
When Jesus had finished these words, the crowds were amazed at His teaching;
NASB 1995
When Jesus had finished these words, the crowds were amazed at His teaching;
NASB 1977
The result was that when Jesus had finished these words, the multitudes were amazed at His teaching;
Amplified Bible
When Jesus had finished [speaking] these words [on the mountain], the crowds were astonished and overwhelmed at His teaching;
Christian Standard Bible
When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were astonished at his teaching,
Holman Christian Standard Bible
When Jesus had finished this sermon, the crowds were astonished at His teaching,
American Standard Version
And it came to pass, when Jesus had finished these words, the multitudes were astonished at his teaching:
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And when Yeshua had finished these words, the crowds were marveling at his teaching.
Contemporary English Version
When Jesus finished speaking, the crowds were surprised at his teaching.
Douay-Rheims Bible
And it came to pass when Jesus had fully ended these words, the people were in admiration at his doctrine.
English Revised Version
And it came to pass, when Jesus ended these words, the multitudes were astonished at his teaching:
Good News Translation
When Jesus finished saying these things, the crowd was amazed at the way he taught.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
When Jesus finished this speech, the crowds were amazed at his teachings.
International Standard Version
When Jesus had finished saying all these things, the crowds were utterly amazed at his teaching,
Literal Standard Version
And it came to pass, when Jesus finished these words, the multitudes were astonished at His teaching,
NET Bible
When Jesus finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed by his teaching,
New Heart English Bible
And it happened, when Jesus had finished saying these things, that the crowds were astonished at his teaching,
Weymouth New Testament
When Jesus had concluded this discourse, the crowds were filled with amazement at His teaching,
World English Bible
It happened, when Jesus had finished saying these things, that the multitudes were astonished at his teaching,
Young's Literal Translation
And it came to pass, when Jesus ended these words, the multitudes were astonished at his teaching,
The crowds were there from the beginning. Why assume otherwise?
You seem to have an agenda.
New International Version
When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching,
New Living Translation
When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching,
English Standard Version
And when Jesus finished these sayings, the crowds were astonished at his teaching,
Berean Study Bible
When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were astonished at His teaching,
Berean Literal Bible
And it came to pass, when Jesus had finished these words, the crowds were astonished at His teaching.
King James Bible
And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
New King James Version
And so it was, when Jesus had ended these sayings, that the people were astonished at His teaching,
New American Standard Bible
When Jesus had finished these words, the crowds were amazed at His teaching;
NASB 1995
When Jesus had finished these words, the crowds were amazed at His teaching;
NASB 1977
The result was that when Jesus had finished these words, the multitudes were amazed at His teaching;
Amplified Bible
When Jesus had finished [speaking] these words [on the mountain], the crowds were astonished and overwhelmed at His teaching;
Christian Standard Bible
When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were astonished at his teaching,
Holman Christian Standard Bible
When Jesus had finished this sermon, the crowds were astonished at His teaching,
American Standard Version
And it came to pass, when Jesus had finished these words, the multitudes were astonished at his teaching:
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And when Yeshua had finished these words, the crowds were marveling at his teaching.
Contemporary English Version
When Jesus finished speaking, the crowds were surprised at his teaching.
Douay-Rheims Bible
And it came to pass when Jesus had fully ended these words, the people were in admiration at his doctrine.
English Revised Version
And it came to pass, when Jesus ended these words, the multitudes were astonished at his teaching:
Good News Translation
When Jesus finished saying these things, the crowd was amazed at the way he taught.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
When Jesus finished this speech, the crowds were amazed at his teachings.
International Standard Version
When Jesus had finished saying all these things, the crowds were utterly amazed at his teaching,
Literal Standard Version
And it came to pass, when Jesus finished these words, the multitudes were astonished at His teaching,
NET Bible
When Jesus finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed by his teaching,
New Heart English Bible
And it happened, when Jesus had finished saying these things, that the crowds were astonished at his teaching,
Weymouth New Testament
When Jesus had concluded this discourse, the crowds were filled with amazement at His teaching,
World English Bible
It happened, when Jesus had finished saying these things, that the multitudes were astonished at his teaching,
Young's Literal Translation
And it came to pass, when Jesus ended these words, the multitudes were astonished at his teaching,
E
when your stuck worshiping an Idol like he is and do not research for yourself. You get stuck in these ruts of trying to force your interpretation into the passage. Even in his own Idol. It says people. Jesus never called his disciples people. He called them his disciples. Whenever they are mentioned, even including all, not just the 12 main ones, they were called disciples.
either way, when you look in the greek. It usually refers to a gathering of common people.
Intermediate greek-english lexicon
ὌΧΛΟΣ, ὁ, a moving crowd, a throng, mob, Pind., Aesch., etc.; ὁ ὄχλος τῶν στρατιωτῶν the mass of the soldiers, Xen.; τῷ ὄχλῳ in point of numbers, Thuc.; οἱ τοιοῦτοι ὄχλοι undisciplined masses like these, Id.
2. in political sense, the populace, mob, Lat. turba, opp. to δῆμος, Id., Xen.
3. generally, a mass, multitude, ὄχλος λόγων Aesch.
II. like Lat. turba, annoyance, trouble, ὄχλον παρέχειν τινί to give one trouble, Hdt.; διʼ ὄχλου εἶναι, γενέσθαι to be or become troublesome, Ar., Thuc.
A greek-english lexicon of the New testament
ὄχλος, -ου, ὁ, in the N. T. only in the historical bks. and five times in the Rev.; as in Grk. writ. fr. Pind. and Aeschyl. down, a crowd, i.e.
1. a casual collection of people; a multitude of men who have flocked together in some place, a throng: Mt. 9:23, 25; 15:10, etc.; Mk. 2:4; 3:9, and often; Lk. 5:1, 19; 7:9, etc.; Jn. 5:13; 6:22, 24; 7:20, 32, 49, etc.; Acts 14:14; 17:8; 21:34; τὶς ἐκ τοῦ ὄχλου, Lk. 11:27; 12:13; or ἀπὸ τοῦ ὄχλου, 19:39; 9:38; ἀπὸ (for i.e. on account of [cf. ἀπό, II. 2 b.]) τ. ὄχλου, Lk. 19:3; ἡ βία τ. ὄχλου, Acts 21:35; πολὺς ὄχλος and much oftener ὄχλος πολύς, Mt. 14:14; 20:29; 26:47; Mk. 5:21, 24; 6:34; 9:14; 14:43 [here T Tr WH om. L Tr mrg. br. πολ.]; Lk. 7:11; 8:4; 9:37; Jn. 6:2, 5; 12:12 [but here Tr mrg. br. WH prefix ὁ; cf. B. 91 (80)]; Rev. 19:1, 6; with the art. ὁ πολὺς ὄχλ., the great multitude present, Mk. 12:37; [ὁ ὄχλος πολύς (the noun forming with the adj. a single composite term. like our) the common people, Jn. 12:9 T WH Tr mrg.; cf. B. u. s.; some would give the phrase the same sense in Mk. l. c.]; πάπολυς, Mk. 8:1 [Rec.]; ἱκανός, Mk. 10:46; Lk. 7:12; Acts 11:24, 26; 19:26; ὁ πλεῖστος ὄχλ. [the most part of the multitude], Mt. 21:8; πᾶς ὁ ὄχλ., Mt. 13:2; Mk. 2:13; 4:1; 7:14 [Rec.]; 9:15; 11:18; Lk. 13:17; Acts 21:27; ὄχλ. τοσοῦτος, Mt. 15:33; αἱ μυριάδες τοῦ ὄχλ. Lk. 12:1; οὐ μετὰ ὄχλου, not having a crowd with me, Acts 24:18; ἄτερ ὄχλου, in the absence of the multitude [(see ἄτερ)], Lk. 22:6. plur. οἱ ὄχλοι, very often in Mt. and Lk., as Mt. 5:1; 7:28; 9:8, 33, 36; 11:7; 12:46; 13:34, 36, etc.; Lk. 3:7, 10; 4:42; 5:3; 8:42, 45; 9:11; 11:14, etc; Acts 8:6; 13:45; 14:11, 13, 18 sq.; 17:13; once in Jn. 7:12 [where Tdf. the sing.]; in Mk. only 6:33 Rec. and without the art. Mk. 10:1; ὄχλοι πολλοί, Mt. 4:25; 8:1; 12:15 [R G]; 13:2; 15:30; 19:2; Lk. 5:15; 14:25; πάντες οἱ ὄχλοι, Mt. 12:23.
2. the multitude i.e. the common people, opp. to the rulers and leading men: Mt. 14:5; 21:26; Mk. 12:12; [Jn. 7:12 (provided the plur. is retained in the first part of the vs.)]; with contempt, the ignorant multitude, the populace, Jn. 7:49; ἐπισύστασις ὄχλου, a riot, a mob, Acts 24:12 [L T Tr WH ἐπίστασις (q. v.) ὄχ.].
3. univ. a multitude: with a gen. of the class, as τελωνῶν, Lk. 5:29; μαθητῶν, Lk. 6:17; ὀνομάτων (see ὄνομα, 3), Acts 1:15; τῶν ἱερέων, Acts 6:7; the plur. ὄχλοι, joined with λαοί and ἔθνη, in Rev. 17:15 seems to designate troops of men assembled together without order. (Sept. chiefly for הָמוֹן.)
either way, when you look in the greek. It usually refers to a gathering of common people.
Intermediate greek-english lexicon
ὌΧΛΟΣ, ὁ, a moving crowd, a throng, mob, Pind., Aesch., etc.; ὁ ὄχλος τῶν στρατιωτῶν the mass of the soldiers, Xen.; τῷ ὄχλῳ in point of numbers, Thuc.; οἱ τοιοῦτοι ὄχλοι undisciplined masses like these, Id.
2. in political sense, the populace, mob, Lat. turba, opp. to δῆμος, Id., Xen.
3. generally, a mass, multitude, ὄχλος λόγων Aesch.
II. like Lat. turba, annoyance, trouble, ὄχλον παρέχειν τινί to give one trouble, Hdt.; διʼ ὄχλου εἶναι, γενέσθαι to be or become troublesome, Ar., Thuc.
A greek-english lexicon of the New testament
ὄχλος, -ου, ὁ, in the N. T. only in the historical bks. and five times in the Rev.; as in Grk. writ. fr. Pind. and Aeschyl. down, a crowd, i.e.
1. a casual collection of people; a multitude of men who have flocked together in some place, a throng: Mt. 9:23, 25; 15:10, etc.; Mk. 2:4; 3:9, and often; Lk. 5:1, 19; 7:9, etc.; Jn. 5:13; 6:22, 24; 7:20, 32, 49, etc.; Acts 14:14; 17:8; 21:34; τὶς ἐκ τοῦ ὄχλου, Lk. 11:27; 12:13; or ἀπὸ τοῦ ὄχλου, 19:39; 9:38; ἀπὸ (for i.e. on account of [cf. ἀπό, II. 2 b.]) τ. ὄχλου, Lk. 19:3; ἡ βία τ. ὄχλου, Acts 21:35; πολὺς ὄχλος and much oftener ὄχλος πολύς, Mt. 14:14; 20:29; 26:47; Mk. 5:21, 24; 6:34; 9:14; 14:43 [here T Tr WH om. L Tr mrg. br. πολ.]; Lk. 7:11; 8:4; 9:37; Jn. 6:2, 5; 12:12 [but here Tr mrg. br. WH prefix ὁ; cf. B. 91 (80)]; Rev. 19:1, 6; with the art. ὁ πολὺς ὄχλ., the great multitude present, Mk. 12:37; [ὁ ὄχλος πολύς (the noun forming with the adj. a single composite term. like our) the common people, Jn. 12:9 T WH Tr mrg.; cf. B. u. s.; some would give the phrase the same sense in Mk. l. c.]; πάπολυς, Mk. 8:1 [Rec.]; ἱκανός, Mk. 10:46; Lk. 7:12; Acts 11:24, 26; 19:26; ὁ πλεῖστος ὄχλ. [the most part of the multitude], Mt. 21:8; πᾶς ὁ ὄχλ., Mt. 13:2; Mk. 2:13; 4:1; 7:14 [Rec.]; 9:15; 11:18; Lk. 13:17; Acts 21:27; ὄχλ. τοσοῦτος, Mt. 15:33; αἱ μυριάδες τοῦ ὄχλ. Lk. 12:1; οὐ μετὰ ὄχλου, not having a crowd with me, Acts 24:18; ἄτερ ὄχλου, in the absence of the multitude [(see ἄτερ)], Lk. 22:6. plur. οἱ ὄχλοι, very often in Mt. and Lk., as Mt. 5:1; 7:28; 9:8, 33, 36; 11:7; 12:46; 13:34, 36, etc.; Lk. 3:7, 10; 4:42; 5:3; 8:42, 45; 9:11; 11:14, etc; Acts 8:6; 13:45; 14:11, 13, 18 sq.; 17:13; once in Jn. 7:12 [where Tdf. the sing.]; in Mk. only 6:33 Rec. and without the art. Mk. 10:1; ὄχλοι πολλοί, Mt. 4:25; 8:1; 12:15 [R G]; 13:2; 15:30; 19:2; Lk. 5:15; 14:25; πάντες οἱ ὄχλοι, Mt. 12:23.
2. the multitude i.e. the common people, opp. to the rulers and leading men: Mt. 14:5; 21:26; Mk. 12:12; [Jn. 7:12 (provided the plur. is retained in the first part of the vs.)]; with contempt, the ignorant multitude, the populace, Jn. 7:49; ἐπισύστασις ὄχλου, a riot, a mob, Acts 24:12 [L T Tr WH ἐπίστασις (q. v.) ὄχ.].
3. univ. a multitude: with a gen. of the class, as τελωνῶν, Lk. 5:29; μαθητῶν, Lk. 6:17; ὀνομάτων (see ὄνομα, 3), Acts 1:15; τῶν ἱερέων, Acts 6:7; the plur. ὄχλοι, joined with λαοί and ἔθνη, in Rev. 17:15 seems to designate troops of men assembled together without order. (Sept. chiefly for הָמוֹן.)
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In Matthew chapters 5-7, it should be clear that the crowds followed Jesus along with His disciples.
For some reason, you refuse to acknowledge this. Making null and void this statement of yours:
As well as this one:
I do not believe you. You do not even accept what the Scripture text says.
For some reason, you refuse to acknowledge this. Making null and void this statement of yours:
As well as this one:
I do not believe you. You do not even accept what the Scripture text says.
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E
I agree
I gave 27 translations, 18 of which specified crowd/s, 6 said multitudes, and 3 said the people.
None of them imply or suggest in any way that the crowd was not present from beginning to end.
I gave 27 translations, 18 of which specified crowd/s, 6 said multitudes, and 3 said the people.None of them imply or suggest in any way that the crowd was not present from beginning to end.
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My goodness! Really?
I was previously unaware of the fact that by the end of Jesus' Sermon, the "people" ("crowds") were there listening to Him.
I know that the scripture says clearly at the beginning of the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:1-2) that when Jesus went up to the mountain, His "disciples" came unto Him (not "the crowds"; unless His disciples, at that time, consisted of "the crowds").
If I am trying to reconcile scripture so that it fits in with everything that is written, all of a sudden I have some kind of ungodly motivation for preaching the gospel to you?
I would say that if you have this suspicion about me, that the apple cannot fall far from the tree in your own life (Matthew 7:1-5, Luke 6:41-42). What kind of insincere motivations do you harbor in your motivations to post at these message boards?
I would say that the reconciliation of Matthew 5:1-2 and Matthew 7:28-29 is that, either the disciples consisted of "the crowds" or else "the crowds" were slowly gathering to Jesus as He was preaching that Sermon there on the Mount.
This was early on in Jesus' ministry. Do you really think that Jesus had disciples that consisted of a multitude this early on?
I suppose that it is even possible; since Jesus performed many miracles just previous to giving the Sermon (Matthew 4:23-25).
I was previously unaware of the fact that by the end of Jesus' Sermon, the "people" ("crowds") were there listening to Him.
I know that the scripture says clearly at the beginning of the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:1-2) that when Jesus went up to the mountain, His "disciples" came unto Him (not "the crowds"; unless His disciples, at that time, consisted of "the crowds").
If I am trying to reconcile scripture so that it fits in with everything that is written, all of a sudden I have some kind of ungodly motivation for preaching the gospel to you?
I would say that if you have this suspicion about me, that the apple cannot fall far from the tree in your own life (Matthew 7:1-5, Luke 6:41-42). What kind of insincere motivations do you harbor in your motivations to post at these message boards?
I would say that the reconciliation of Matthew 5:1-2 and Matthew 7:28-29 is that, either the disciples consisted of "the crowds" or else "the crowds" were slowly gathering to Jesus as He was preaching that Sermon there on the Mount.
This was early on in Jesus' ministry. Do you really think that Jesus had disciples that consisted of a multitude this early on?
I suppose that it is even possible; since Jesus performed many miracles just previous to giving the Sermon (Matthew 4:23-25).
My "nickname" is not deceptive...
I believe wholeheartedly that I have been justified by faith alone in Jesus Christ alone and that this is the only way to be saved.
And also, the term "just" does not only refer to the concept of "only" but to the concept of "righteous".
You have me praying fervently in my prayer language as the result of your accusations; and I know that this post will also fall on deaf ears because you have me on Ignore. Yet you seem intent on deterring other people from listening to me. And yet, I bring the gospel that will save them if they do listen. So, you will be held accountable if they do not listen and are never saved as the result.
I have said my piece.
May the lord abundantly bless you and receive you as a son.
I believe wholeheartedly that I have been justified by faith alone in Jesus Christ alone and that this is the only way to be saved.
And also, the term "just" does not only refer to the concept of "only" but to the concept of "righteous".
You have me praying fervently in my prayer language as the result of your accusations; and I know that this post will also fall on deaf ears because you have me on Ignore. Yet you seem intent on deterring other people from listening to me. And yet, I bring the gospel that will save them if they do listen. So, you will be held accountable if they do not listen and are never saved as the result.
I have said my piece.
May the lord abundantly bless you and receive you as a son.
I hope you're not this "narrow!" I'm talking about the fact the word "perfect" can mean different things in different contexts. Anybody with a rudimentary understanding of dictionaries knows this!
"Perfect" can refer to being sinless or without any mistakes, or it can refer to proper alignment with a particular cause, depending on context. I suggest we are discussing the latter. We're talking about properly pursuing an operation without any sense of being mistake-free. "Perfect" can indeed mean "mistake free," but *not,* as I said, in all contexts.
Paul is talking about our ability to ignore sinful compulsions, but not the ability to exterminate our Sin Nature. You might ask, "Well, how can one stop sinning without exterminating the Sin Nature?"
It's rather simple, really. Just look at your own life. You may be tempted to throw a fit, or express your impatience in brutal style with others, and know these things are wrong. So you determine to suppress these sinful urges, and are successful at doing so.
This does not mean you weren't tempted in the first place by those sinful passions within you. And it doesn't mean that even after suppressing their outward manifestation that they still aren't inside you, tempting you to cave.
God wants basic obedience, to suppress, to some degree, the outward manifestation of disobedience. In doing so, we indulge the new nature that we've received from Christ, choosing instead to rely upon his love and virtues.
The object is not to be perfect, nor to completely suppress the Sin Nature, but rather, to succeed in the mission, to obey God and to be a good witness. Sinless perfection comes with the resurrection.
Therefore, Jesus exhorted his Disciples to "be perfect" only in the sense of proper conformity to his exhortations, to be obedient in a general sense. False or pretend obedience was to be "imperfect" in observance.
"Perfect" can refer to being sinless or without any mistakes, or it can refer to proper alignment with a particular cause, depending on context. I suggest we are discussing the latter. We're talking about properly pursuing an operation without any sense of being mistake-free. "Perfect" can indeed mean "mistake free," but *not,* as I said, in all contexts.
Paul is talking about our ability to ignore sinful compulsions, but not the ability to exterminate our Sin Nature. You might ask, "Well, how can one stop sinning without exterminating the Sin Nature?"
It's rather simple, really. Just look at your own life. You may be tempted to throw a fit, or express your impatience in brutal style with others, and know these things are wrong. So you determine to suppress these sinful urges, and are successful at doing so.
This does not mean you weren't tempted in the first place by those sinful passions within you. And it doesn't mean that even after suppressing their outward manifestation that they still aren't inside you, tempting you to cave.
God wants basic obedience, to suppress, to some degree, the outward manifestation of disobedience. In doing so, we indulge the new nature that we've received from Christ, choosing instead to rely upon his love and virtues.
The object is not to be perfect, nor to completely suppress the Sin Nature, but rather, to succeed in the mission, to obey God and to be a good witness. Sinless perfection comes with the resurrection.
Therefore, Jesus exhorted his Disciples to "be perfect" only in the sense of proper conformity to his exhortations, to be obedient in a general sense. False or pretend obedience was to be "imperfect" in observance.
I believe that if you look at Romans 6:6 and then Colossians 2:11 in the kjv you may see something important.
Or, if you look at 1 John 1:5 and 1 John 3:5 in light of 1 John 5:20, 1 Corinthians 1:2, 1 Corinthians 1:30, and 1 Peter 5:14, you might see the same thing.
I will not necessarily claim that the sin nature has been eradicated from the body; but I will say that sin indwelling the flesh can be rendered dead (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8) so that it no longer has any say over our behaviour.
Even to the extent that the things that we used to be prone to (such as anger and lust) are no longer a problem in our lives.
I find that I do not even get angry any more; and it used to be a real problem in my life B.C.
Times that I experience lust have also gotten to be farther and fewer in between.
I think that because the Spirit has control, the flesh no longer holds as much sway in my life to rise up and do what it used to do when I was less sanctified than I am today.
When the flesh gets crucified, it is put to death. So then, as I live a crucified life, I do not find that I am merely "suppressing sinful urges"...I am finding that the part of me that had those sinful urges is now deader than a doornail.
Or, if you look at 1 John 1:5 and 1 John 3:5 in light of 1 John 5:20, 1 Corinthians 1:2, 1 Corinthians 1:30, and 1 Peter 5:14, you might see the same thing.
I will not necessarily claim that the sin nature has been eradicated from the body; but I will say that sin indwelling the flesh can be rendered dead (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8) so that it no longer has any say over our behaviour.
Even to the extent that the things that we used to be prone to (such as anger and lust) are no longer a problem in our lives.
I find that I do not even get angry any more; and it used to be a real problem in my life B.C.
Times that I experience lust have also gotten to be farther and fewer in between.
I think that because the Spirit has control, the flesh no longer holds as much sway in my life to rise up and do what it used to do when I was less sanctified than I am today.
When the flesh gets crucified, it is put to death. So then, as I live a crucified life, I do not find that I am merely "suppressing sinful urges"...I am finding that the part of me that had those sinful urges is now deader than a doornail.
You've missed the point. You should see the big picture, and not just focus on irrelevant facts. To say the word "perfect" always means "perfect" is missing the point, and I think you will acknowledge that if you even spend one minute considering what I said.
I said *context* determines how one means to use a particular word. Since the word translated "perfect" was a Greek word, we can't impose our own preferred definition of "perfection" upon Jesus' use of the Greek word. We must look at the context to determine how he meant to use this word.
And I'm suggesting that Jesus meant to use "perfect" in the sense of an unfeigned obedience, a genuine obedience to God's word, as opposed to those who pretend to obey and actually harbor hostility in their hearts.
This has nothing to do with becoming sinless--not even for an instant. It has everything with our ability to obey God from the heart, instead of carrying out some supposed duty for God with ulterior motives.
I said *context* determines how one means to use a particular word. Since the word translated "perfect" was a Greek word, we can't impose our own preferred definition of "perfection" upon Jesus' use of the Greek word. We must look at the context to determine how he meant to use this word.
And I'm suggesting that Jesus meant to use "perfect" in the sense of an unfeigned obedience, a genuine obedience to God's word, as opposed to those who pretend to obey and actually harbor hostility in their hearts.
This has nothing to do with becoming sinless--not even for an instant. It has everything with our ability to obey God from the heart, instead of carrying out some supposed duty for God with ulterior motives.
I went through something like that years ago. I began to walk in the Spirit, and found that I could focus on Christ's strength, and yield up my own lower passions quite easily.
But things got more difficult over time. God had made it relatively easy for me for awhile. Tests came my way that tested my metal, and I found that when God crossed my will it wasn't so easy to handle it well.
Perhaps you are still somewhat young in the Lord? Or maybe you've just been taught to ignore the reality of your own personal poverty?
Jesus said that those who are poor in spirit will be blessed. They recognize their need for God and will find it, through grace. And believe me, you will in fact need mercy!!
But things got more difficult over time. God had made it relatively easy for me for awhile. Tests came my way that tested my metal, and I found that when God crossed my will it wasn't so easy to handle it well.
Perhaps you are still somewhat young in the Lord? Or maybe you've just been taught to ignore the reality of your own personal poverty?
Jesus said that those who are poor in spirit will be blessed. They recognize their need for God and will find it, through grace. And believe me, you will in fact need mercy!!
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