Be Perfect As Your Heavenly Father Is Perfect.

[justbyfaith]

You've missed the point. You should see the big picture, and not just focus on irrelevant facts. To say the word "perfect" always means "perfect" is missing the point, and I think you will acknowledge that if you even spend one minute considering what I said.

I said *context* determines how one means to use a particular word. Since the word translated "perfect" was a Greek word, we can't impose our own preferred definition of "perfection" upon Jesus' use of the Greek word. We must look at the context to determine how he meant to use this word.

And I'm suggesting that Jesus meant to use "perfect" in the sense of an unfeigned obedience, a genuine obedience to God's word, as opposed to those who pretend to obey and actually harbor hostility in their hearts.

This has nothing to do with becoming sinless--not even for an instant. It has everything with our ability to obey God from the heart, instead of carrying out some supposed duty for God with ulterior motives.

As I have written in the OP of the thread, "the meaning of mature", it should be clear that the word "perfect" does in fact mean "perfect" in the sense that those who have been made perfect will rightfully have no more conscience of sins; not because their conscience is no longer working properly; but because they are not committing the sins that their conscience might convict them of if they were committing them.

https://christianchat.com/threads/the-meaning-of-mature.202005/unread

 

[justbyfaith]

I went through something like that years ago. I began to walk in the Spirit, and found that I could focus on Christ's strength, and yield up my own lower passions quite easily.

But things got more difficult over time. God had made it relatively easy for me for awhile. Tests came my way that tested my metal, and I found that when God crossed my will it wasn't so easy to handle it well.

Perhaps you are still somewhat young in the Lord? Or maybe you've just been taught to ignore the reality of your own personal poverty?

Jesus said that those who are poor in spirit will be blessed. They recognize their need for God and will find it, through grace. And believe me, you will in fact need mercy!!

I know that in me -- that is, in my flesh -- there dwells no good thing...

I am not young in the Lord, I have had the gift of tongues since 1986...

Of course if it is in our will to be rebellious against the Lord, it becomes necessary to pray with real contrition about the rebelliousness that is in our hearts. If we want to be right with God, it becomes necessary to deny ourselves and take up our crosses daily to follow Jesus.

When we find that we do not want to obey the Lord, we should at that point seek the Lord and "rend our hearts and not our garments" in order that the inclination of our heart towards rebellion might be dealt with.

If the flesh once again rises up and begins to rear its ugly head, it becomes necessary to re-crucify the flesh. Those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its affections and lusts (Galatians 5:24). Therefore if our flesh is not crucified, can we say that we truly belong to Christ?

 

[justbyfaith]

I think you hit on something here

He (those like him) need to become poor in spirit

The greek there literally means bankrupt.

Sadly, when you still see good in yourself. Its hard to become bankrupt.

The Holy Spirit within me is a very powerful influence on my behaviour.

And it is also true that God has blessed me with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ (Ephesians 1:3).

That being said, I know that in me -- that is, in my flesh -- dwelleth no good thing.

Apart from the Holy Spirit's influence, I am very poor...

However, I believe that as Christians, we ought not to rely on our own strength but on His influence in our life.

The same power that raised Jesus from the dead, dwells in us (Ephesians 1:19-23).

If availing ourselves of that power makes us "rich in spirit" then I see an apparent contradiction in holy scripture...

However, I think that we can be "poor in spirit" and yet avail ourselves of that power...because that power is not inherently our own wealth...it is "the riches of His grace" that He offers us that we can rely on (Ephesians 1:7). It is therefore not us who are wealthy in the spiritual sense...but rather our daddy owns the cattle on a thousand hills and we can always rely on Him to bail us out in any situation where we might need spiritual wealth to get us through our trials.

 

[randyk]

I think you hit on something here

He (those like him) need to become poor in spirit

The greek there literally means bankrupt.

Sadly, when you still see good in yourself. Its hard to become bankrupt.

Now that reply shows some real maturity! Thanks--I hope he hears it.

 

[randyk]

I know that in me -- that is, in my flesh -- there dwells no good thing...

I am not young in the Lord, I have had the gift of tongues since 1986...

Of course if it is in our will to be rebellious against the Lord, it becomes necessary to pray with real contrition about the rebelliousness that is in our hearts. If we want to be right with God, it becomes necessary to deny ourselves and take up our crosses daily to follow Jesus.

When we find that we do not want to obey the Lord, we should at that point seek the Lord and "rend our hearts and not our garments" in order that the inclination of our heart towards rebellion might be dealt with.

If the flesh once again rises up and begins to rear its ugly head, it becomes necessary to re-crucify the flesh. Those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its affections and lusts (Galatians 5:24). Therefore if our flesh is not crucified, can we say that we truly belong to Christ?

You don't lose your salvation every time you lose your temper!

 

[justbyfaith]

You don't lose your salvation every time you lose your temper!

And, I didn't say that you do.

However, if you are angry with your brother without a cause, it is the same as murder according to our Lord (Matthew 5:21-26).

That is why the Bible tells us to "be ye angry and do not sin." (Ephesians 4:26).

If I get angry that is not necessarily a sin. It depends on what I do with that anger.

I know that I have gotten angry with other people even as a believer; and yes, I did not lose my salvation in that.

But if I acted on that anger in an unwarranted manner, something is wrong in my heart and I need to repent before God.

The matter at hand is whether my heart is right before God.

If my heart is not right with Him, it does not necessarily mean that He has forsaken me.

However, there is a deceitfulness to sin; and I believe that if I allow sin to get a foothold in my life, it may in fact begin to have an effect on my faith and thus my salvation (Hebrews 3:12-13).

This is why we confess our sins before God even though our position has not yet been affected since we have not forsaken faith in Jesus when we have committed one sin. That sin may turn into another and when sin is fully-grown, it produces spiritual death (James 1:14-16).

This is why we need to "rend our hearts and not our garments" (Joel 2:13) when we find ourselves in a position where we have sinned and feel that it is of no consequence.

Chances are, that if we feel that sin is of no consequence, we have already hardened our hearts (see Hebrews 3:7-8, Hebrews 3:15, Hebrews 4:7).

 

[randyk]

And, I didn't say that you do.

However, if you are angry with your brother without a cause, it is the same as murder according to our Lord (Matthew 5:21-26).

That is why the Bible tells us to "be ye angry and do not sin." (Ephesians 4:26).

If I get angry that is not necessarily a sin. It depends on what I do with that anger.

I know that I have gotten angry with other people even as a believer; and yes, I did not lose my salvation in that.

But if I acted on that anger in an unwarranted manner, something is wrong in my heart and I need to repent before God.

The matter at hand is whether my heart is right before God.

If my heart is not right with Him, it does not necessarily mean that He has forsaken me.

However, there is a deceitfulness to sin; and I believe that if I allow sin to get a foothold in my life, it may in fact begin to have an effect on my faith and thus my salvation (Hebrews 3:12-13).

This is why we confess our sins before God even though our position has not yet been affected since we have not forsaken faith in Jesus when we have committed one sin. That sin may turn into another and when sin is fully-grown, it produces spiritual death (James 1:14-16).

This is why we need to "rend our hearts and not our garments" (Joel 2:13) when we find ourselves in a position where we have sinned and feel that it is of no consequence.

Chances are, that if we feel that sin is of no consequence, we have already hardened our hearts (see Hebrews 3:7-8, Hebrews 3:15, Hebrews 4:7).

So what we're really talking about here are the degrees of sin. We all agree that sin is serious. However, we have a Sin Nature, which means that little sins are happening, in one way or another, all the time.

The kind of sin that damns is when we harden our hearts against the word of God in the matter of salvation. And salvation has to do with desiring a continual relationship with God. If we reject God in our lives, this is a damning sin.

Other sins hurt ourselves, God, and others in various ways. We should keep our "sinning" down to a minimum. Otherwise, we hurt others more and will face worse consequences in our lives.

But there is not one single instant where we are sinless, since we have a Sin Nature. There is always the inclination towards sin, which is something we must always resist.

Can we resist it? Of course. If that's your point, I agree.

 

[justbyfaith]

So what we're really talking about here are the degrees of sin. We all agree that sin is serious. However, we have a Sin Nature, which means that little sins are happening, in one way or another, all the time.

The kind of sin that damns is when we harden our hearts against the word of God in the matter of salvation. And salvation has to do with desiring a continual relationship with God. If we reject God in our lives, this is a damning sin.

Other sins hurt ourselves, God, and others in various ways. We should keep our "sinning" down to a minimum. Otherwise, we hurt others more and will face worse consequences in our lives.

But there is not one single instant where we are sinless, since we have a Sin Nature. There is always the inclination towards sin, which is something we must always resist.

Can we resist it? Of course. If that's your point, I agree.

I would say to you that the element of sin dwelling within us can be rendered dead (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8) so that it no longer has any say over our behaviour (Romans 6:14). Because now that we are in Christ, we are no longer obligated to obey the flesh (Romans 8:12 (kjv, NLT)).

I would also encourage you to look up Romans 6:6 (kjv), Colossians 2:11 (kjv).

And also to compare 1 John 1:5 and 1 John 3:5 to 1 John 5:20, 1 Corinthians 1:2, 1 Corinthians 1:30, and 1 Peter 5:14.

I think that you will see something profound.

For 1 John 1:8 is qualified by Job 9:21, John 9:41, and Isaiah 42:19; as well as by 1 Corinthians 4:3-4.

 

[randyk]

I would say to you that the element of sin dwelling within us can be rendered dead (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8) so that it no longer has any say over our behaviour (Romans 6:14). Because now that we are in Christ, we are no longer obligated to obey the flesh (Romans 8:12 (kjv, NLT)).

I would also encourage you to look up Romans 6:6 (kjv), Colossians 2:11 (kjv).

And also to compare 1 John 1:5 and 1 John 3:5 to 1 John 5:20, 1 Corinthians 1:2, 1 Corinthians 1:30, and 1 Peter 5:14.

I think that you will see something profound.

For 1 John 1:8 is qualified by Job 9:21, John 9:41, and Isaiah 42:19; as well as by 1 Corinthians 4:3-4.

I don't need to look all this up. The Scriptures say we were born in sin, period. I don't know of any NT or OT saint who claimed to be sinless, that sin had "died" in their lives by choosing to live righteous lives.

Paul did say something similar to this which you obviously misunderstand. Paul did not claim we are sinless when we live by the Spirit. We view sin as "dead" because as far as condemnation or guilt go they are "dead." But as far as sin still being alive in us, it is.

There are so many proofs of this, but you've clearly heard them all, and still reject them. You are living a lie if you think at any time sin is "dead" in your life the way you're describing it.

1 John 1.8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Again, I think your problem is that you don't properly understand what Paul meant by his viewing sin as "dead" in his life. Note how Paul says we should *count* ourselves dead to sin.

Rom 6.11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

This means that even though sin is still alive in our lives, we "count" sin dead with respect to its attack on our character, to its claim over our souls. We have been delivered from its condemnation of death by viewing itself as dead through the death of Christ.

I think the critical thing to note is that sin has not taken us completely away from God, because His grace is still active in our lives. If we can go on and produce Christ's righteousness in our lives, despite our sin inclinations, this proves that sin is dead with respect to its claim over our lives.

 

[Blain]

I have met some who truly believe themselves to be without sin they claim to have no sin in them and preach the gospel of perfection, now in a sense they are correct because in God's eyes through Jesus Christ we are spotless and pure because he sees the blood of his sons sacrifice however to claim to have no sin at all that you never sin requires in my opinion a certain level of ignorance and arrogance.

The thing is that while we are made perfect in him the simple fact that fleshly thoughts and desires that cause one to sin still intrudes our minds and even our subconscious shows we are still very capable of sinning.

If we were perfect we would not even be tempted by such things, I like to study psychology as it is a fascinating subject to me and in doing soo have realized things about myself even things I do and think subconsciously that are in fact sinful however not everyone likes to prob their inner mind or heart and so many who believe to be sinless are blind to many of their own sins.
Now me personally in a way I am grateful to not be sinless because I am all the more grateful for what Jesus did for me and I rely all the more on his love and grace

 

[randyk]

I have met some who truly believe themselves to be without sin they claim to have no sin in them and preach the gospel of perfection, now in a sense they are correct because in God's eyes through Jesus Christ we are spotless and pure because he sees the blood of his sons sacrifice however to claim to have no sin at all that you never sin requires in my opinion a certain level of ignorance and arrogance.

The thing is that while we are made perfect in him the simple fact that fleshly thoughts and desires that cause one to sin still intrudes our minds and even our subconscious shows we are still very capable of sinning.

If we were perfect we would not even be tempted by such things, I like to study psychology as it is a fascinating subject to me and in doing soo have realized things about myself even things I do and think subconsciously that are in fact sinful however not everyone likes to prob their inner mind or heart and so many who believe to be sinless are blind to many of their own sins.
Now me personally in a way I am grateful to not be sinless because I am all the more grateful for what Jesus did for me and I rely all the more on his love and grace

Good post! Although I can't claim to be "grateful" to be sinless, I know what you mean. We can accept ourselves as flawed, and be grateful for God's continuing kindness towards us, granting us His spiritual life, His righteousness, as well as the hope of eternal life. Yes, He refuses to acknowledge sin's claim over us, keeping us from the Tree of Life.

 

[justbyfaith]

Can we resist it? Of course. If that's your point, I agree.

I do believe that all sin has an addictive element to it.

If we drink of the water of sinful behaviour, we will thirst again. But if we drink of the water that Jesus gives, it will become within us a well of water springing up into everlasting life (John 4:13-14). If we believe in Jesus we will never thirst (John 6:35). if anyone is thristy, let him come to Christ and drink. The water that He gives will begin to flow from your innermost being like rivers of living water (John 7:37-39).

Jesus can set you free from sin and its addictive nature by satisfying you with the Holy Spirit, is what these passages are saying.

So, when you are satisfied by the Holy Ghost, you do not have to resist sin; the fact of the matter is that you will not even be tempted.

It is written,

1Pe 1:5, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
1Pe 1:6, Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
1Pe 1:7, That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

The "if need be" in the verses above is referring to the fact that if you drink of the world's water, you will thirst again; and we grow up drinking the world's water.

So, in order to be free of "thirsting again" because we have drunk of "this water", we must begin to wean ourselves off of "this water" and begin to regularly drink of the water that Jesus has to offer. Then, as we become used to the water that Jesus gives, we will thirst no more for what we used to be thirsty for.

However, because we have drunken of that water, we thirst again because that water is enticing with the pleasures that it offers to us.

This is why Jesus taught us to deny ourselves and take up our crosses daily and to follow Him. Because in order to never thirst again, we must also cease from drinking of the water that causes us to thirst again (John 4:13-14).

 

[justbyfaith]

I don't need to look all this up. The Scriptures say we were born in sin, period. I don't know of any NT or OT saint who claimed to be sinless, that sin had "died" in their lives by choosing to live righteous lives.

Paul did say something similar to this which you obviously misunderstand. Paul did not claim we are sinless when we live by the Spirit. We view sin as "dead" because as far as condemnation or guilt go they are "dead." But as far as sin still being alive in us, it is.

There are so many proofs of this, but you've clearly heard them all, and still reject them. You are living a lie if you think at any time sin is "dead" in your life the way you're describing it.

1 John 1.8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Again, I think your problem is that you don't properly understand what Paul meant by his viewing sin as "dead" in his life. Note how Paul says we should *count* ourselves dead to sin.

Rom 6.11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

This means that even though sin is still alive in our lives, we "count" sin dead with respect to its attack on our character, to its claim over our souls. We have been delivered from its condemnation of death by viewing itself as dead through the death of Christ.

I think the critical thing to note is that sin has not taken us completely away from God, because His grace is still active in our lives. If we can go on and produce Christ's righteousness in our lives, despite our sin inclinations, this proves that sin is dead with respect to its claim over our lives.

You are not counting sin to be dead but to be alive; and that is your primary mistake.

 

[justbyfaith]

If we were perfect we would not even be tempted by such things,

Of course many are not perfect;

While the Bible teaches that those who have availed themselves of the one offering have been perfected for ever because they are sanctified (Hebrews 10:14 (kjv)).

I find that based on a principle that I have related to you in a post above (https://christianchat.com/threads/be-perfect-as-your-heavenly-father-is-perfect.202405/post-4705289), that I am rarely any more tempted by the desires that used to overtake me as besetting sins.

 

[justbyfaith]

I don't need to look all this up.

Suit yourself. If you think that you have all of the knowledge that there is to know, then of course you don't need any more knowledge.

 

[Blain]

Good post! Although I can't claim to be "grateful" to be sinless, I know what you mean. We can accept ourselves as flawed, and be grateful for God's continuing kindness towards us, granting us His spiritual life, His righteousness, as well as the hope of eternal life. Yes, He refuses to acknowledge sin's claim over us, keeping us from the Tree of Life.

Yes perhaps I worded that wrong I like to see it this way I am weak and flawed he is not, where I lack he does not which is what makes him and us such a perfect combination had we not known weakness we would not see and know how truly strong he is had we not known our own sinfullness we would take his grace for granted
I have been the filthy disgusting sinner and dared not even ask for his forgiveness I was the scum of the earth and saw myself as a lowly maggot there was one sin in p[articular that I struggled with greatly and it became a very heavy stone on my soul.

But it was after so long of dealing with this stone that I heard him whisper to me how much he loved me what he saw in me and to just rest in him. I do not ever want to go through that kind of storm again but the absolute love and jot and freedom I felt when I accepted this revived my soul.
There is a light we forget or don't notice until we are standing in the dark

 

[Blain]

Of course many are not perfect;

While the Bible teaches that those who have availed themselves of the one offering have been perfected for ever because they are sanctified (Hebrews 10:14 (kjv)).

I find that based on a principle that I have related to you in a post above (https://christianchat.com/threads/be-perfect-as-your-heavenly-father-is-perfect.202405/post-4705289), that I am rarely any more tempted by the desires that used to overtake me as besetting sins.

perhaps you are rarely ever tempted but being tempted even once means you are not perfect and can still sin, if you can still sin you have inperfection if we were perfect we would not even be tempted it wouldn't even be on our radar. There is nothing wrong with being imperfect and admitting that you sin in fact if you recall it was separated the tax collector and pharisee in God's eyes. But if one refuses to see or admit that they still sin even if rarely and claim to be pperfected then they are the pharisee in that scenario.

The pharisee valued godliness and perfection but because he was blind to himself he was not found worthy to God, the thing about being blind is that you don't see or realize you are blind. given the season we are in nearing Christmas I will give an example a white lie. We call white lies that because they are not intended to be lies persay and perhaps this might trigger someone but santa for example, if we tell our kids the white lie about santa it is still a lie albeit a well intended one or the toothfairy or the easter bunny they are white lies but still lies.

does God hold it against us? I don't think he does but there is no lie in God and even a white lie is lying little things like that can be pinpointed to one thing sin and not just those but lots of little things we do and say everyday can be pinpointed to it

 

[Magenta]

The Holy Spirit within me is a very powerful influence on my behaviour.

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[randyk]

I do believe that all sin has an addictive element to it.

If we drink of the water of sinful behaviour, we will thirst again. But if we drink of the water that Jesus gives, it will become within us a well of water springing up into everlasting life (John 4:13-14). If we believe in Jesus we will never thirst (John 6:35). if anyone is thristy, let him come to Christ and drink. The water that He gives will begin to flow from your innermost being like rivers of living water (John 7:37-39).

Jesus can set you free from sin and its addictive nature by satisfying you with the Holy Spirit, is what these passages are saying.

So, when you are satisfied by the Holy Ghost, you do not have to resist sin; the fact of the matter is that you will not even be tempted.

James speaks with the assumption that we are all tempted, though not by God. God tests us, but the enemy tempts us.

James 1.13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed.

Heb 12.4 In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.

This latter verse suggests that the struggle against sin is real, and can get worse. Facing threats to our life is the worst. Nothing here suggests this is "easy" or "non-existent temptation!"

I think you have a lot of good thoughts, but do not reflect a biblical balance. Focusing on one set of truths does not mean you have to omit the other set of truths that in your mind presents a conflict. These things can be explained.

 

[randyk]

Yes perhaps I worded that wrong I like to see it this way I am weak and flawed he is not, where I lack he does not which is what makes him and us such a perfect combination had we not known weakness we would not see and know how truly strong he is had we not known our own sinfullness we would take his grace for granted
I have been the filthy disgusting sinner and dared not even ask for his forgiveness I was the scum of the earth and saw myself as a lowly maggot there was one sin in p[articular that I struggled with greatly and it became a very heavy stone on my soul.

But it was after so long of dealing with this stone that I heard him whisper to me how much he loved me what he saw in me and to just rest in him. I do not ever want to go through that kind of storm again but the absolute love and jot and freedom I felt when I accepted this revived my soul.
There is a light we forget or don't notice until we are standing in the dark

I agree. For me it is the total humiliation of sin, after committing various acts, that make me never want to sin in those ways again! We can indeed be despicable creatures. But as you say, God's grace is truly "amazing!"