Be Perfect As Your Heavenly Father Is Perfect.

[Blik]

How can I be preaching "against the Law" when I already said that (1) Christ obeyed the Law perfectly, (2) He admonished the Jews to obey the Law properly (and not according to the traditions of men), and (3) He FULFILLED the Law? The Law was effective only until the crucifixion of Christ. But you are simply unable to see this. Therefore you need to spend a lot of time in the epistle to the Hebrews.

Where in the many verses about the law do you find that the law "was only effective until the crucifixion of Christ?

All scripture is about Christ, blood of Christ was given for the atonement of souls as soon as Adam and Eve sinned. Animals were sacrificed immediately to cover their nakedness.

The law has many uses, the use of the law is eternal not subject to our time. The law points to what kills, the blood of Christ is required for us to escape death from the law. The law guides us as we listen to the Lord within us.

 

[justbyfaith]

I agree with everything except the fourth paragraph ( "... but that did not in any way affect the preaching of the Gospel, which is justification by grace through faith")

The rich young ruler asked Jesus: "what shall I do so that I may inherit eternal life?”

Jesus said "keep the commandments"; He didn't say salvation would be by grace through faith.

Jesus brought the law to bear on the rich young ruler's life so that he might be able to come to the end of himself, in order that he might be saved by grace through faith.

 

[randyk]

In the context of Matthew 5:48, Jesus is calling on believers to perfectly love their enemies.

This is doable for us as Christians if we have the Holy Spirit (see Romans 5:5; Colossians 3:14).

It would be completely inconsistent for Jesus to call upon anybody born with a sin nature to live in sinless perfection. Therefore, his use of the term "perfection" conforms to their understanding of the word at that time, and not to your current use of the term.

"Perfect" refers to a course correction--not perfect alignment.

 

[randyk]

To become "perfect" refers to a course correction. For example, to be "perfect" on the job is to stop lounging around and exploiting the situation to indulge my laziness or irresponsibility. To become "perfect" is simply to get back to working and become responsible with the tasks at hand.

What confuses this notion is the fact that the thing we're to become "perfect" with involves our association with a perfect God and with a sinless, righteous Spirit. When we align ourselves with the word of God, we align ourselves with a perfect Being, with a perfect principle, but not with any expectation of perfection. It is simply getting back to the task at hand, performing God's will without any expectation of accomplishing that in a sinless way.

We should not abuse the word "perfect" by indicating that our conformity to God and to His word ever makes us perfect. That will not happen until our glorification at the resurrection.

 

[justbyfaith]

It would be completely inconsistent for Jesus to call upon anybody born with a sin nature to live in sinless perfection. Therefore, his use of the term "perfection" conforms to their understanding of the word at that time, and not to your current use of the term.

"Perfect" refers to a course correction--not perfect alignment.

"perfect" means "perfect".

I am not claiming that anyone can become sinless (1 John 1:8)....but I will contend that a man can be made perfect (Hebrews 10:14 (kjv)).

 

[justbyfaith]

To become "perfect" refers to a course correction. For example, to be "perfect" on the job is to stop lounging around and exploiting the situation to indulge my laziness or irresponsibility. To become "perfect" is simply to get back to working and become responsible with the tasks at hand.

What confuses this notion is the fact that the thing we're to become "perfect" with involves our association with a perfect God and with a sinless, righteous Spirit. When we align ourselves with the word of God, we align ourselves with a perfect Being, with a perfect principle, but not with any expectation of perfection. It is simply getting back to the task at hand, performing God's will without any expectation of accomplishing that in a sinless way.

We should not abuse the word "perfect" by indicating that our conformity to God and to His word ever makes us perfect. That will not happen until our glorification at the resurrection.

That seems to be the consensus among most believers.

However, we ought to take into account the fact that in the last days men will not endure sound doctrine but will heap to themselves teachers to tell them what their itching ears want to hear.

The teaching that you have provided above is one such thing.

It is probably based on your reading a translation other than the kjv in your personal reading time. You very likely get a skewed understanding of the real teaching of the holy scriptures because you do that.

I do believe that if you consistently read the kjv, you will come to the conclusion that the Lord is able to perfect you in this lifetime.

 

[randyk]

"perfect" means "perfect".

I am not claiming that anyone can become sinless (1 John 1:8)....but I will contend that a man can be made perfect (Hebrews 10:14 (kjv)).

That's obviously a contradiction. You're not claiming "anyone can become sinless." And then you say "a man can be made perfect."

"Perfect" does *not* mean "perfect." That is pure ignorance. "Perfect" means what it means *in context.* "Perfect" in one context does not mean "perfect" as applied in a different context.

"Perfect" can refer to "full maturity" in the biblical sense. To remain within the lines of a particular lane in a track race would be like "being perfectly" in accord with the rules. But it certainly does not imply that the runner has no sin!

 

[randyk]

That seems to be the consensus among most believers.

However, we ought to take into account the fact that in the last days men will not endure sound doctrine but will heap to themselves teachers to tell them what their itching ears want to hear.

The teaching that you have provided above is one such thing.

It is probably based on your reading a translation other than the kjv in your personal reading time. You very likely get a skewed understanding of the real teaching of the holy scriptures because you do that.

I do believe that if you consistently read the kjv, you will come to the conclusion that the Lord is able to perfect you in this lifetime.

No, I don't buy into the "only-KJV" argument. It's undoubtedly a reasonably-good translation, but language changes over time. Neither was the evolution of that particular translation without numerous errors. We're human, and make errors. Most of the translations agree with one another. If anything the KJV would make it easier for me to misinterpret, because I speak American English, and the KJV originated as an English English translation.

We aren't having an argument over the word "perfect." It is an argument over how the word was intended to be understood *in context.* There is the large-scale context and the more immediate context. The large-scale context would prohibit the idea that "perfect," in this instance, was calling men and women to be sinless. The short-term context was calling for them to properly conform to God's commands.

God's commands are all through the Bible, and they never required sinless behavior. They only required conformity, generally, to the thing asked for. If God asked Abraham to offer his son Isaac to him, conformity would be doing that. It never meant that Abraham should suddenly become sinless.

 

[justbyfaith]

That's obviously a contradiction. You're not claiming "anyone can become sinless." And then you say "a man can be made perfect."

"Perfect" does *not* mean "perfect." That is pure ignorance. "Perfect" means what it means *in context.* "Perfect" in one context does not mean "perfect" as applied in a different context.

"Perfect" can refer to "full maturity" in the biblical sense. To remain within the lines of a particular lane in a track race would be like "being perfectly" in accord with the rules. But it certainly does not imply that the runner has no sin!

It is your contention therefore that words do not say what they mean or mean what they say.
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It is not a contradiction.

We all have indwelling sin (1 John 1:8); however the element of sin can be crucified, rendered dead (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8) so that it no longer has any say over our behaviour (Romans 6:14). We are not obligated to obey the flesh (Romans 8:12 (kjv, NLT)).

Therefore, we can become perfect in our Christian walk even though sin is not eradicated from the flesh.

It is the walk that is perfected, not the person. Sin remains in us but is rendered dead (again, Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8).

So we become perfect (Hebrews 10:14 (kjv)) while we are not sinless (1 John 1:8).

 

[justbyfaith]

No, I don't buy into the "only-KJV" argument.

That is certainly your prerogative.

However, I would say to you, I believe by the Holy Ghost, that the kjv-only or kjv-superior side of the controversy is an aspect of the narrow way that leads to life, spoken of in Matthew 7:13-14.

You can take it or leave it.

But if I am right, and you go headlong down the path of believing in modern translations, I believe that you will be taking the broad path that leads to destruction.

That would be a sad thing for me on your day of judgment; and a terrifying thing for you.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If no human being can be perfect, why did Jesus tell His disciples to be perfect?

are you talking about Matt 5? That was spoken to a group of people. Not particularly to the disciples.

and he was trying to show Gods standard of righteousness as He just dressed down those who were trying to be justified by the law as twisting the law and making it appear as if they kept it. And told them if you want to save yourself. Be perfect as your father is perfect.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It's not about becoming perfect, being sinless, that is not possible for fallen man.

It's about being as perfect as possible imitating Christ in our daily life.

Christ did not say be as good as you can be, He said be perfect.

We should not try to change Jesus words. And make him say something he never said

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Do you know anyone who is perfect without sin? Does not the scripture that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God?

Paul himself said he had not reached perfection. No, Jesus did not mean perfect in the definition we know as perfect.

This is where Grace comes into the picture! By faith in Christ, who is perfect, when the Father sees the believer in Christ by faith he sees perfection. This is what Jesus is referring to! Being perfect in the sight of God in His Son's perfection.

Thats not the point jesus was making though

The pharisees thought they were perfect. And demanded everyone be like them. Jesus said unless our righteousness exceeds their righteousness, we will by no means enter the kingdom. That is the context of matt 5. From where Jesus words of being perfect came.

He exposed them, and after telling everyone how dredfully sinfull even the pharisees are. If you want to enter heaven by your own work, That is Gods requirement, Be perfect.

 

[Charlie24]

Christ did not say be as good as you can be, He said be perfect.

We should not try to change Jesus words. And make him say something he never said

So you are perfect I suppose? Is that what Jesus actually meant, for you to be perfect in our fallen state?

No, He did not! We are to allow the Holy Spirit to work in us a progressive Christlikeness by faith until the resurrection where we will be changed, corruption will put on incorruption, and we are made perfect.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So you are perfect I suppose?

Nope/ The law proved that to me 4 decades ago. Thats why I came to christ. Because I realised I could not live up to Gods standard. And I sought the lamb of God who could save me. Like Jesus is telling the people there to do.

Is that what Jesus actually meant, for you to be perfect in our fallen state?

He is telling them that is what is required if they want to get saved by plan A (the law)

Plan B is what he came to offer them, The cross.

No, He did not! We are to allow the Holy Spirit to work in us a progressive Christlikeness by faith until the resurrection where we will be changed, corruption will put on incorruption, and we are made perfect.

Jesus is not talking about sanctification here. He s talking about entering the kingdom of God.

 

[Charlie24]

Nope/ The law proved that to me 4 decades ago. Thats why I came to christ. Because I realised I could not live up to Gods standard. And I sought the lamb of God who could save me. Like Jesus is telling the people there to do.


He is telling them that is what is required if they want to get saved by plan A (the law)

Plan B is what he came to offer them, The cross.


Jesus is not talking about sanctification here. He s talking about entering the kingdom of God.

God was offering the Cross from the very beginning through the innocent animal sacrifice!

They could not be perfect as you could not be perfect, they were to look to the Cross in sacrifice and do the best they could do with obeying, just as you are doing now!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

God was offering the Cross from the very beginning through the innocent animal sacrifice!

They could not be perfect as you could not be perfect, they were to look to the Cross in sacrifice and do the best they could do with obeying, just as you are doing now!

But they did not do that. They thought the law was what made them righteous. Thats why they rejected Christ, He told them how sinful they were.

He did not tell them to do the best they could. He told them what it takes.

So they could find him.

 

[Charlie24]

But they did not do that. They thought the law was what made them righteous. Thats why they rejected Christ, He told them how sinful they were.

He did not tell them to do the best they could. He told them what it takes.

So they could find him.

Yes, the Law pointed to Christ, they couldn't keep it! So what did those do who did look to the Cross, who did have faith in Christ through the animal sacrifice, what did they do with the Law?

How about the best they could do, because they were saved by faith not the Law!

 

[Charlie24]

Yes, the Law pointed to Christ, they couldn't keep it! So what did those do who did look to the Cross, who did have faith in Christ through the animal sacrifice, what did they do with the Law?

How about the best they could do, because they were saved by faith not the Law!

That's what I mean by "the best they could do!"

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, the Law pointed to Christ, they couldn't keep it! So what did those do who did look to the Cross, who did have faith in Christ through the animal sacrifice, what did they do with the Law?

How about the best they could do, because they were saved by faith not the Law!

Nope

we don‘t do the best we can do. God never once said this. Because our best is not good enough.

Are you afraid to give God some credit. Why do you want it to be all about you?

We allow Christ to live in us, and in turn learn to lean on him in his power. And have him work through us