Are the words of Jesus not for Christians?

[Grandpa]

i reckon it's hand-in-hand;
the better i understand Him, the more my faith increases, and the more faith i have, the more i seem to understand

A lot has to do with pre-conceived ideas as well.

If you think that the Lords Word CAN'T mean a certain thing because of your 'understanding' of other scripture then you won't be given understanding of the Lords Word.

We truly are children before the Lord. But if you come to Him with your 'understanding' instead of your faith what CAN you receive?


Matthew 18:3-4
3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.

 

[Grandpa]

Most of the time, those that stand fast on the "there has always been only one gospel" doctrine, when you ask them what exactly is the content of that one gospel, they will reply in some vague broad point "its about faith in Jesus, believe in Jesus etc".

Then when you asked them how the OT saints believe in Jesus, that one gospel, when he is not even sent to Earth yet, they will fall back on the "Oh, they were looking forward to the Cross", an equally vague explanation.

We are saved so we know the Salvation of the Lord.

We know that at least some were saved in the OT so we must assume that they are saved in the same way as we are. By grace through faith and not of our works.

Look at Psalm 23. That looks like Salvation. But it doesn't look like knowledge of Christ. Is it ok for God to save them without that Knowledge? Can they obtain that knowledge through 'working out their salvation with fear and trembling', study and prayer?

I don't know. I do know there has always been one plan of Salvation. And I do know that people were saved between Adam and the Lord Jesus time.


Moses was shown spiritual Truth by God and told to pattern the physical requirements based on those Spiritual Truths. But it doesn't appear that Christ Himself was revealed to Moses. Or perhaps Moses didn't choose to reveal Christ because it wasn't time yet.

How can we know? I think all explanations would have to be vague. Unless you think that no one was saved from Adam to Christ. I would, of course, disagree with that. The Mount of Transfiguration should be enough to dispel such error.

 

[Guojing]

We are saved so we know the Salvation of the Lord.

We know that at least some were saved in the OT so we must assume that they are saved in the same way as we are. By grace through faith and not of our works.

Look at Psalm 23. That looks like Salvation. But it doesn't look like knowledge of Christ. Is it ok for God to save them without that Knowledge? Can they obtain that knowledge through 'working out their salvation with fear and trembling', study and prayer?

I don't know. I do know there has always been one plan of Salvation. And I do know that people were saved between Adam and the Lord Jesus time.


Moses was shown spiritual Truth by God and told to pattern the physical requirements based on those Spiritual Truths. But it doesn't appear that Christ Himself was revealed to Moses. Or perhaps Moses didn't choose to reveal Christ because it wasn't time yet.

How can we know? I think all explanations would have to be vague. Unless you think that no one was saved from Adam to Christ. I would, of course, disagree with that. The Mount of Transfiguration should be enough to dispel such error.

Acts 3:19-21 made it clear that, as far as Israel is concerned, salvation for them is always something for them in the future. Their sins may be blotted out (which implies it is not currently blotted out), at a future "times of refreshing".

None of them during that time, can be like us now, where we have our sins blotted out now.

As far as Israel from Mt Sinai to Christ, they were placed in Abraham's bosom, or Paradise, after they die, provided they are not cut off from the nation Israel, which there are a couple ways a Jew can be cut off.

 

[Grandpa]

Acts 3:19-21 made it clear that, as far as Israel is concerned, salvation for them is always something for them in the future. Their sins may be blotted out (which implies it is not currently blotted out), at a future "times of refreshing".

None of them during that time, can be like us now, where we have our sins blotted out now.

As far as Israel from Mt Sinai to Christ, they were placed in Abraham's bosom, or Paradise, after they die, provided they are not cut off from the nation Israel, which there are a couple ways a Jew can be cut off.

The Mount of Transfiguration should dispel that idea...

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Surely you would agree that not every statement by Jesus in the 4 gospels are for the Body of Christ today? Matthew 10:5 and Matthew 15:24 are some examples.

"The lost sheep of the house of Israel" The house of Israel is the bride of Christ, the elect. The house of Israel does not have reference to the nation of Israel. All Israel is not of Israel. In Gen 33:28, God changed Jacob's name to be no more called Jacob, but to be called Israel. Lacob/Israel is representative of God's elect, Romans 9:11. Jacob/Israel is made up of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation, Rev 5:9.

When we are born again, as babes in Christ, we are "lost" from the knowledge of God's righteousness until we have been weaned from the milk of the word and taught about the righteousness of God. That is why Jesus instructed his Apostles to go and preach the gospel to the lost sheep of the house of Jacob/Israel.

This instruction hold true for those men whom God has called to preach the gospel in this present time.

 

[John146]

The Mount of Transfiguration should dispel that idea...

How? They saw Jesus in all His glory as King.

 

[Grandpa]

How? They saw Jesus in all His glory as King.

Moses and Elijah were there too.

So that should dispel the idea that OT people were not Saved.

It should also dispel the idea that OT people are placed somewhere other than Gods Kingdom when they are Saved.

Unless, somehow, OT people who are saved can travel to and from Gods Kingdom to "Paradise" or "Abrahams Bosom" and then show up in front of people with Christ on earth at their own discretion. In the presence of God...

 

[lenna]

Great post, by the way. Very informative.

I usually handle situations like this similar to the way I would handle a confrontation with an atheist, by not enganging with them at all.

It is my opinion that all attempts at expressing your viewpoint to these rocks with legs is a futile waste of your precious time.

You will always lose. Why? Because we come at it from a viewpoint of believing what the bible says, whereas these people have already made up their mind that every word in the bible is false.

My advice: agree to disagree until the Holy Spirit opens the door.

I hear you.

I just think of those who might be wondering about all these different interpretations and I pray they do not follow after them, but depend on the truths in scripture instead and understand if we have one truth, it would be Jesus. He is the way, the truth and the life

 

[lenna]

Agreed! Likewise, there are groups out there who consider Paul a false apostle and therefore reject his writings as being the word of God. However, by doing so they are getting rid of a lot of scriptural information and promises such as the living being changed and caught up in I Thess.4:16-18 and I Cor.15:51-53, as well as a myriad of others. And by doing so they put themselves under the same condemnation as those mentioned in 2 Peter 3:16 who He said were ignorant and unstable people and that they did so to their own destruction.

Definitely not a good idea to remove books or information from the word of God

totally agree!

 

[lenna]

I used to act out, amy more I will just say a few words then when it starts To Go that way I give up.
sadly it is just as bad in here as in the world lately

it can be that way sometimes

like Paul said, But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it
II Timothy 3:14

 

[John146]

Moses and Elijah were there too.

So that should dispel the idea that OT people were not Saved.

It should also dispel the idea that OT people are placed somewhere other than Gods Kingdom when they are Saved.

Unless, somehow, OT people who are saved can travel to and from Gods Kingdom to "Paradise" or "Abrahams Bosom" and then show up in front of people with Christ on earth at their own discretion. In the presence of God...

Elijah was caught up and Moses was taken up after his death as representatives as the law and prophets. They both will die in the tribulation. They are exceptions not the rule.

 

[soggykitten]

A few times lately in this forum someone comes along and discredits what Jesus states in the gospels. To date, we have been told that the gospels, the book of Acts and James are not for Gentile Christians. no teaching to be found for Gentiles there

The so called 'Jesus Seminar' dealt with Jesus some 50 years or so ago and I wonder if it has had an effect on modern teaching in Christian collages/universities, churches, especially the popular ones teaching 'gospel light' and so on

The "Jesus Seminar" was begun by New Testament "scholar" Robert Funk in the 1970s. It was Funk’s desire to rediscover the "historical Jesus" that was hidden, he believed, behind almost 2,000 years of Christian traditions, myths, and legends. The Jesus Seminar was created to examine the biblical gospels and other early Christian literature to discover who Jesus truly was and what He truly said.

The Jesus Seminar was (and still is) comprised almost entirely of individuals who deny the inspiration, authority, and inerrancy of the Bible. The agenda of the Jesus Seminar is not to discover who the historical Jesus was. Rather, the purpose of the Jesus Seminar is to attack what the Bible clearly says about who Jesus is and what He taught.

So then you have to ask yourself what it is that Jesus taught and why has it become questionable even by those who purport to believe in the deity of Christ?

the Jesus Seminar goes further though. The "scholars" of the Jesus Seminar do not believe in the deity of Christ, the resurrection of Christ, the miracles of Christ, or the substitutionary atonement death of Christ. Perhaps most significantly, they deny that the Holy Spirit is the author of all Scripture

is there a difference or some fine dividing line between excluding the gospels from teaching about Christianity or just saying 'we don't believe'?

I've seen some responses that seem to indicate the Bible is like a smorgasbord...just pick what you fancy and pass on the rest .

wondering what others think about this?

I think if we first accept what Paul taught, that we are all one in Christ Jesus, that there is no racial identity, no gender identity, then I'd say all Jesus' Gospel teachings are for Christians.
God sent Jesus because he loved the world. The Gospel doesn't discriminate when it is read to teach all who have sinned are doomed unless they repent and accept Christ.

 

[lenna]

I think if we first accept what Paul taught, that we are all one in Christ Jesus, that there is no racial identity, no gender identity, then I'd say all Jesus' Gospel teachings are for Christians.
God sent Jesus because he loved the world. The Gospel doesn't discriminate when it is read to teach all who have sinned are doomed unless they repent and accept Christ.

yes Paul taught that

there is so much in the gospels we will overlook if we relegate them to some sort of not meant for Gentiles status

this part of Jesus prayer for example: (before he was arrested)

20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me John 17

Jesus prays for those who will believe...you and me...not just His disciples

 

[Guojing]

Moses and Elijah were there too.

So that should dispel the idea that OT people were not Saved.

It should also dispel the idea that OT people are placed somewhere other than Gods Kingdom when they are Saved.

Unless, somehow, OT people who are saved can travel to and from Gods Kingdom to "Paradise" or "Abrahams Bosom" and then show up in front of people with Christ on earth at their own discretion. In the presence of God...

Elijah never died in the first place.

As for Moses, it was said that God buried him but no one could find his body, didn't the archangel Michael dispute with Satan over that body in Jude 9?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

yes Paul taught that

there is so much in the gospels we will overlook if we relegate them to some sort of not meant for Gentiles status

this part of Jesus prayer for example: (before he was arrested)

20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me John 17

Jesus prays for those who will believe...you and me...not just His disciples

Satan wants to divide, as the old saying goes United we stand divided we fall

united in Christ we stand

when we start to divide, christ stops being the center, and the church (at least in that area where the division is) falls

 

[lenna]

Satan wants to divide, as the old saying goes United we stand divided we fall

united in Christ we stand

when we start to divide, christ stops being the center, and the church (at least in that area where the division is) falls

yes

he made his first 'division' in the garden between God and His human creation

Jesus said people would know us by our love for one another...not our doctrine

Jesus words are not doctrine. they are life and God's love

when you love someone so much you die for them, it must hurt to see these same persons divide you up and dismiss you

God help us

 

[Guojing]

yes

he made his first 'division' in the garden between God and His human creation

Jesus said people would know us by our love for one another...not our doctrine

Jesus words are not doctrine. they are life and God's love

when you love someone so much you die for them, it must hurt to see these same persons divide you up and dismiss you

God help us

2 Timothy 2:15

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Jesus told Paul to tell you that your responsibility is to do precisely that.

 

[Ahwatukee]

So I guess depending on how you were taught,
the church you attend, all of us will have different ideas on which apply and which don't.

Allow me to make this very clear once again. I Was not and have not been taught by any man. I have always done my own personal studies. I look up and study all of related scriptures. I do the studying! I do not adopt and repeat the teachings of men.

The Roman Catholics for example, take John 20:23 very seriously, in their priestly duties. No other church really cares about that verse though.

Just FYI, the Roman Catholic religion is not Christian, but is a counterfeit Church. Anyone who has truly studied the word of God only need to do a cursory examination to come to the conclusion that she is not of Christ. I could start with that idolatrous Egyptian obelisk that is sitting out in St. Peter's square. This does not glorify God in any way, shape or form, no matter what apologetics people come up with.

The RCC's understanding saved by grace is not supported by God's word. They believe that once a person is baptized that all of that persons sins are forgiven up to that point. Sins that are committed after that are absolved through priests who dole out God's grace through sacraments, such as saying a specific number of hail Mary's, which is not scriptural whatsoever! The word of God tells believers to go directly to God the Father in the name of His Son. There is not need for priest to be our mediator, for we already have a mediator, Jesus Christ. Then there is this nonsense of transubstantiation where when people partake of the Eucharist, that they are eating the literal flesh and blood of Christ. If can except it, Roman Catholicism is the woman who will ride the beast.

As for Mark 16:16-18, its most fascinating. The Church of Christ and some others would take Mark 16:16 seriously but reject 17 and 18.

Charismatics would however, take 17 and 18 seriously but reject 16 in terms of water baptism being necessary for salvation.

"And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

And this was fulfilled. We read in the gospels, acts and other NT books, that Peter, Paul, John and other apostles fulfilled those signs. But remember also what the other scriptures say regarding this:

Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? But eagerly desire the greater gifts."

The answer to all of the questions above is 'NO!' Not everyone has the same gifts, but according to what the Spirit gives.

I continue to say this, we need to take into consideration all related scriptures on any given subject, not just some.

 

[Guojing]

"And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

And this was fulfilled. We read in the gospels, acts and other NT books, that Peter, Paul, John and other apostles fulfilled those signs. But remember also what the other scriptures say regarding this:

Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? But eagerly desire the greater gifts."

The answer to all of the questions above is 'NO!' Not everyone has the same gifts, but according to what the Spirit gives.

I continue to say this, we need to take into consideration all related scriptures on any given subject, not just some.

Thanks for sharing your view.

So according to how you understand scripture, Mark 16:17-18 was only directed to the original apostles, including Paul right? The Body of Christ should not expect that for us now, even if Jesus said in Mark 16:17 that it was for those who believe?

Many other charismatic churches would claim that "those who believe" also mean those in the Body of Christ now who believes. Are they wrong for holding that doctrine?

 

[Ahwatukee]

So, if I have not forgiven all others, God has not forgiven me and I am still in my sin? Do you really believe this is to the body of Christ? How do you pick and choose which teachings to apply as doctrine and which do not?

Well, you read the scripture for yourself. If someone is a believer, but holds a grudge not willing to forgive a fellow believer, then Jesus says of that person, neither heavenly Father forgive you. In fact in the context, the man was originally forgiven all his debt, but when he would not have compassion on his fellow believer, his sins were reinstated.

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Because of this, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24As he began the settlements, a debtor was brought to him owing ten thousand talents. 25Since the man was unable to pay, the master ordered that he be sold to pay his debt, along with his wife and children and everything he owned.

26Then the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Have patience with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’

27His master had compassion on him, forgave his debt, and released him.

28But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii.g He grabbed him and began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay back what you owe me!’

29So his fellow servant fell down and begged him, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you back.’

30But he refused. Instead, he went and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay his debt.

31When his fellow servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed, and they went and recounted all of this to their master.

32Then the master summoned him and declared, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave all your debt because you begged me. 33Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant, just as I had on you?’ 34In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should repay all that he owed.

35That is how My heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.”