And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
No one is denying that "cease to exist" EXISTS in the Bible.

The real issue is where does it SAY that souls WILL cease to exist. You don't have any verse that says that. And that is what you need to prove your case.

What will definitely cease to exist are the physical resurrected bodies of unbelievers.

You don’t have a verse to say only the bodies will cease to exist, but the Bible is clear that God is able to save or destroy.

And I've admitted EVERY TIME the verse about "able to save or destroy both body and soul in hell" comes up that YES YES YES, God is able to do that.

So, show me ANY verse that says He WILL.

There’s no such talk of eternal torment for all of the unsaved.

Let's just review the facts.

1. the beast and FP (both humans) will be cast into the LOF when Jesus Christ returns at the 2nd Advent. Rev 19:20.
2. Satan will join THEM at the end of the 1,000 year reign of Christ, when Jesus kills all unbelievers, in Rev 20:10.
3. Rev 20:10 says THEY will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
4. Immediately after Satan is cast into the LOF Jesus will preside over the GWT judgment, and ALL resurrected unbelievers will be cast into the SAME LOF as the beast, FP and Satan.

So, if ALL unbelievers, except the beast and FP, will cease to exist when cast into the LOF, how come the beast and FP don't?

This is the question that you haven't even tried to answer. Because you know that it is too obvious. Every unbeliever will be cast into the LOF. And there are NO verses that teach, say, or even hint that only 2 will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

And the FACT that the beast and FP will be tormented day and night for ever and ever proves that the title of this thread is WRONG.

“Able to destroy soul and body in hell…”

“But, but, but, it says able! See?”

Of course "can" and "able to" mean the same thing. But that hasn't been the discussion.

The discussion is about "can" and "will". They AREN'T the same. But you seem oblivious to that fact.

Your red herring doesn’t support your pretense that He will not or is unlikely to destroy soul and body in hell.

I only quote the Bible. God is ABLE to destroy souls, but there are NO verses that say that He WILL do so. That is your red herring.

God is able to destroy soul and body in hell because that’s the alternative to being saved.

No, that's your opinion only. You have NO VERSE that says what you believe. So you FAIL the Berean study method.

Jesus said to fear Him because of this.

Because He is omnipotent. Jesus never said that God WILL do it.

FreeGrace says there’s nothing to fear about being destroyed.

This is a total lie, which you are so quick to do. Prove your phony claim by quoting me saying that and citing the post #.

But since you can't, of course, you won't. Just more evidence that you have nothing in support of any of your off the wall claims.

This is very simple, I wonder who is totally wrong here? You or God?

Neither, since I believe what the Bible says. I don't presume anything, like you do.

The one who wonders who is wrong here doesn't need to wonder any more. It's "wonder boy". YOU.

 

[HeIsHere]

True, that is why Heinrich Himmler killed himself with a cyanide capsule. He thought death as an escape.
A ceasing to exist. Which is a lie from Satan.

This thread is still going .

In no case in the Old or New Testaments do any of these words, in context, refer to the soul or spirit being annihilated, that is, going into nonexistence.

It relies upon assumptions and presuppositions on the meaning of singular "words" which is really not how to read the scripture, having said that even single word linguistical analysis annihilates this theory, lol.

I like John Stott but he has really done a disservice to Christianity by promoting this view.

 

[HeIsHere]

Your posts are like a broken record.


Thank you for your opinion, of which I don't need. I have the Bible, which is very clear about ECT. I'm sorry your sentiments have gotten in the way of your ability to understand the Word.

That is the typical way a few cherry picked verses harped on over and over again.

 

[Runningman]

This is a total lie, which you are so quick to do. Prove your phony claim by quoting me saying that and citing the post #.

I took no pleasure sorting through your garbage, but I found this:

Post #1028
Magenta said:
“In such a way, God's wrath remains on them.”

FreeGrace2 said:
“If their souls cease to exist, it won't matter. They won't be aware of it or anything. iow, no torment, no punishment, etc.”

Post #1422
kelronomos said:
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

FreeGrace2 said:
“Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what?”

Here’s Mr. Red Herring saying it wouldn’t matter of God’s wrath remains on them if they cease to exist since they will not be aware of it. You’re saying there’s nothing to fear about God here very clearly. The words of Jesus stand in clear opposition to you.

Also, when confronted with the words of Jesus in Matthew 10:28 your tone is dismissive and apathetic. Just sorting through dozens of pages of your nonsense reveals a generally argumentative, arrogant, and rude person. I need to take a shower now.

 

[Runningman]

Your posts are like a broken record.


Thank you for your opinion, of which I don't need. I have the Bible, which is very clear about ECT. I'm sorry your sentiments have gotten in the way of your ability to understand the Word.

Good read your Bible. Start with these verses:

James 4:12
"God alone, who gave the law, is the Judge. He alone has the power to save or to destroy."

Hebrews 10:39
"But we are not like those who turn away from God to their own destruction..."

Philippians 3:18-19
"For I have told you often before, and I say it again with tears in my eyes, that there are many whose conduct shows they are really enemies of the cross of Christ.
19 They are headed for destruction."

Psalm 92:7
"Though the wicked sprout like weeds and evildoers flourish they will be destroyed forever."

Psalm 37:20
"But the wicked will die... they will disappear like smoke."

Psalm 1:6:
"... For the Lord watches over the path of the godly, but the path of the wicked leads to destruction."

Hebrews 10:26-27
"There is only the terrible expectation of God's judgment and the raging fire that will consume his enemies."

2 Peter 3:7
"...for the day of judgment, when ungodly people will be destroyed."

Romans 2:7
"He will give eternal life to those who keep on doing good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers."

Genesis 3:19
"For you were made from dust, and to dust you will return."

Psalm 146:4
"When they breathe their last, they return to the earth, and all their plans die with them."

Ecclesiastes 9:5
"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul who sins is the one who will die.

Jeremiah 19:5
"They have built pagan shrines to Baal, and there they burn their sons as sacrifices to Baal. I have never commanded such a horrible deed; it never even crossed My mind to command such a thing!"

Malachi 4:1, 4:3 "The day of judgment is coming, burning like a furnace. On that day the arrogant and the wicked will be burned up like straw. They will be consumed—roots, branches, and all... On the day when I act, you will tread upon the wicked as if they were dust under your feet," says the Lord of Heaven's Armies."

Matthew 10:28
"And fear not them which kill the body but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life."

John 6:51
"I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Anyone who eats this bread will live forever" (the offer to live forever only makes sense if it were possible to not live forever.)

2 Thessalonians 1:9
"They will be punished with eternal destruction,forever separated from the Lord and from his glorious power."

Romans 6:23
"For the wages of sin is death."

2 Peter 2:6
"and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, having made them an example unto those that should live ungodly"

Revelation 20:14-15
"And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire. And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire."

 

[Runningman]

That is the typical way a few cherry picked verses harped on over and over again.

How’s this for cherry picking a few verses?

James 4:12
"God alone, who gave the law, is the Judge. He alone has the power to save or to destroy."

Hebrews 10:39
"But we are not like those who turn away from God to their own destruction..."

Philippians 3:18-19
"For I have told you often before, and I say it again with tears in my eyes, that there are many whose conduct shows they are really enemies of the cross of Christ.
19 They are headed for destruction."

Psalm 92:7
"Though the wicked sprout like weeds and evildoers flourish they will be destroyed forever."

Psalm 37:20
"But the wicked will die... they will disappear like smoke."

Psalm 1:6:
"... For the Lord watches over the path of the godly, but the path of the wicked leads to destruction."

Hebrews 10:26-27
"There is only the terrible expectation of God's judgment and the raging fire that will consume his enemies."

2 Peter 3:7
"...for the day of judgment, when ungodly people will be destroyed."

Romans 2:7
"He will give eternal life to those who keep on doing good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers."

Genesis 3:19
"For you were made from dust, and to dust you will return."

Psalm 146:4
"When they breathe their last, they return to the earth, and all their plans die with them."

Ecclesiastes 9:5
"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul who sins is the one who will die.
Jeremiah 19:5
"They have built pagan shrines to Baal, and there they burn their sons as sacrifices to Baal. I have never commanded such a horrible deed; it never even crossed My mind to command such a thing!"

Malachi 4:1, 4:3 "The day of judgment is coming, burning like a furnace. On that day the arrogant and the wicked will be burned up like straw. They will be consumed—roots, branches, and all... On the day when I act, you will tread upon the wicked as if they were dust under your feet," says the Lord of Heaven's Armies."

Matthew 10:28
"And fear not them which kill the body but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life."

John 6:51
"I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Anyone who eats this bread will live forever" (the offer to live forever only makes sense if it were possible to not live forever.)

2 Thessalonians 1:9
"They will be punished with eternal destruction,forever separated from the Lord and from his glorious power."

Romans 6:23
"For the wages of sin is death."

2 Peter 2:6
"and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, having made them an example unto those that should live ungodly"

Revelation 20:14-15
"And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire. And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire."

 

[Runningman]

This thread is still going .

In no case in the Old or New Testaments do any of these words, in context, refer to the soul or spirit being annihilated, that is, going into nonexistence.

It relies upon assumptions and presuppositions on the meaning of singular "words" which is really not how to read the scripture, having said that even single word linguistical analysis annihilates this theory, lol.

I like John Stott but he has really done a disservice to Christianity by promoting this view.

Utterly destroyed means cease to exist. Wait, you think if someone is utterly destroyed they’re still running around dancing and singing?

Or in your preferred case, weeping and wailing, gnashing their teeth, engulfed in flames day and night forever?

That’s absurd. Show me a verse that proves it.

 

[Runningman]

True, that is why Heinrich Himmler killed himself with a cyanide capsule. He thought death was an escape.
A ceasing to exist. Which is a lie from Satan.

Bold words. You felt no conviction when you spoke evil?

Jesus, God’s Son in Whom He is well pleased, said in John 3:16 that those who don’t believe in Him will perish. The word perish means utterly destroyed. What’s left of someone utterly destroyed? Tell me what is left. Reveal yourself.

If you have a problem with Jesus I can guarantee God will have a problem with you.

 

[HeIsHere]

Utterly destroyed means cease to exist.

It really does not.

"Cease to exist" is the nature/type of the destruction >>>> which you are adding to the meaning of the words.

This is so obvious, baffling how indoctrinated you are that you cannot see the assumption you are adding to the various texts.

 

[Runningman]

It really does not.

"Cease to exist" is the nature/type of the destruction >>>> which you are adding to the meaning of the words.

This is so obvious, baffling how indoctrinated you are that you cannot see the assumption you are adding to the various texts.

Annihilate means utterly destroy. Perish means utterly destroy. It’s clear there’s nothing of that thing or person left, at least nothing recognizable. Are you splitting hairs and wanting to argue there are still atoms and molecules left over? Be my guest, but the entire person, body soul and spirit, has been wiped out of existence. The Bible proves it.

However, I’m baffled you cherry picked that single sentence out of my comment then ignored the rest. Aren’t you adding eternal conscious torment for all of the unsaved to the Bible? We all know there just isn’t a single verse to support that.

p.s.- I’m not indoctrinated. No one sat down with me and told me to believe this. I simply read the Bible on my own and came to this truth. Which denomination indoctrinated you?

 

[HeIsHere]

Annihilate means utterly destroy. Perish means utterly destroy. It’s clear there’s nothing of that thing or person left, at least nothing recognizable.

It actually does not, cause annihilate and "utterly destroy" are not synonymous.

So obvious, a house can be utterly destroyed by a tornado but it still exists, what you are promoting is non existence, not the same at all.

 

[FreeGrace2]

This thread is still going .

I like John Stott but he has really done a disservice to Christianity by promoting this view.

Is he a Calvinist??

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
This is a total lie, which you are so quick to do. Prove your phony claim by quoting me saying that and citing the post #.

I took no pleasure sorting through your garbage, but I found this:

Post #1028
Magenta said:
“In such a way, God's wrath remains on them.”

I'm not Magenta

FreeGrace2 said:
“If their souls cease to exist, it won't matter. They won't be aware of it or anything. iow, no torment, no punishment, etc.”

A very TRUE statement, and you haven't proven the contrary.

Post #1422
kelronomos said:
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

FreeGrace2 said:
“Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what?”

You guys just keep repeating your mantras over and over, but without out ANY PROOF that God WILL eliminate souls.

Here’s Mr. Red Herring saying it wouldn’t matter of God’s wrath remains on them if they cease to exist since they will not be aware of it.

A very true statement. One that you have NOT refuted with any evidence. Only your opinions, and, oh yeah, your sentiments.

You’re saying there’s nothing to fear about God here very clearly.

If your soul no longer exists, then there are NO FEELINGS at all, whether FEAR or joy. Why can't you get that?

The words of Jesus stand in clear opposition to you.

Not. But go ahead and quote whatever verse you think does. It's always interesting to see how your mind runs.

Also, when confronted with the words of Jesus in Matthew 10:28 your tone is dismissive and apathetic.

No, I am FACTUALLY pointing out that words have meaning. And "can/able to" NEVER means "will". Not ever.

Just sorting through dozens of pages of your nonsense reveals a generally argumentative, arrogant, and rude person. I need to take a shower now.

And you quoted 2 other posters who are on YOUR side. You really did a bang up job, I gotta say.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Good read your Bible.

I probably read mine more than you do. Just a guess. Based on YOUR posts.

Start with these verses:

James 4:12
"God alone, who gave the law, is the Judge. He alone has the power to save or to destroy."

Yes, is absolutely ABLE TO. But, you STILL haven't found any verse that says He WILL. And you seem unaware of the difference.

Hebrews 10:39
"But we are not like those who turn away from God to their own destruction..."

Their bodies.

Philippians 3:18-19
"For I have told you often before, and I say it again with tears in my eyes, that there are many whose conduct shows they are really enemies of the cross of Christ.
19 They are headed for destruction."

Their bodies.

Psalm 92:7
"Though the wicked sprout like weeds and evildoers flourish they will be destroyed forever."

Yep. Their bodies will cease to exist.

Psalm 37:20
"But the wicked will die... they will disappear like smoke."

When their resurrected body is cast into the LOF, it surely WILL disappear.

Psalm 1:6:
"... For the Lord watches over the path of the godly, but the path of the wicked leads to destruction."

God WILL destroy the body.

Hebrews 10:26-27
"There is only the terrible expectation of God's judgment and the raging fire that will consume his enemies."

ERROR ALRERT, ERROR ALRERT!!

This passage is directly to BELIEVERS, and refers to divine discipline that includes physical death.

2 Peter 3:7
"...for the day of judgment, when ungodly people will be destroyed."

Their bodies.

Romans 2:7
"He will give eternal life to those who keep on doing good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers."

How does this verse support your anti-ECT agenda?

Genesis 3:19
"For you were made from dust, and to dust you will return."

Good verse for describing what will happen to the body at physical death. It does NOT help you at all.

Psalm 146:4
"When they breathe their last, they return to the earth, and all their plans die with them."

Yep. When a person dies, none of their plans will go on.

Ecclesiastes 9:5
"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."

The dead won't know anything about what's happening on the earth. They don't have CNN in heaven or Hades.

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul who sins is the one who will die.

Physical death, OBVI0USLY to those with discernment.

Jeremiah 19:5
"They have built pagan shrines to Baal, and there they burn their sons as sacrifices to Baal. I have never commanded such a horrible deed; it never even crossed My mind to command such a thing!"

Nothing about souls disappearing.

Malachi 4:1, 4:3 "The day of judgment is coming, burning like a furnace. On that day the arrogant and the wicked will be burned up like straw. They will be consumed—roots, branches, and all... On the day when I act, you will tread upon the wicked as if they were dust under your feet," says the Lord of Heaven's Armies."

Obviously referring to bodies. How do souls, which are immaterial, "burn like straw". Ever see a soul burn?

Matthew 10:28
"And fear not them which kill the body but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Yes, He SURE CAN. But where is the verse that SAYS He WILL. Oh, yeah, you can't differentiate between "can" and "will". Sorry.

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life."

Their bodies will perish.

John 6:51
"I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Anyone who eats this bread will live forever" (the offer to live forever only makes sense if it were possible to not live forever.)

Bodies, my dear man.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
"They will be punished with eternal destruction,forever separated from the Lord and from his glorious power."

A "punishment" must be experienced in order to BE a punishment. This verse proves ECT. Thanks!

Romans 6:23
"For the wages of sin is death."

Thanks to Adam, all humans will experience physical death. Heb 9:27 proves it as well.

2 Peter 2:6
"and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, having made them an example unto those that should live ungodly"

Bodies, like cities, will burn up. Yep. Thanks for another great verse that refutes annihilation of the soul.

Revelation 20:14-15
"And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire. And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire."

Ah, yes. The "second death". The bodies of unbelievers will be resurrected to attend the GWT judgment. And they WILL DIE again.

That makes 2. Real simple.

Do you have any more verses that you'd like me to comment on? This is fun.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Utterly destroyed means cease to exist.

Only if referring to the physical body. There is NO evidence of the soul being "utterly destroyed".

Wait, you think if someone is utterly destroyed they’re still running around dancing and singing?

Obviously you are referring to the physical body. Yes, maybe you are beginning to get it.

Or in your preferred case, weeping and wailing, gnashing their teeth, engulfed in flames day and night forever?

That’s absurd. Show me a verse that proves it.

Said the guy who CAN'T show ANY verse where souls are ceasing to exist.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Bold words. You felt no conviction when you spoke evil?

Jesus, God’s Son in Whom He is well pleased, said in John 3:16 that those who don’t believe in Him will perish. The word perish means utterly destroyed.

It is utterly amazing that the concept of the physical body being destroyed in the LOF is not sinking into your skull.

What’s left of someone utterly destroyed?

Their soul. I guess you never read Rev 6, where John describes SEEING the souls of saints "under the altar" in heaven. Any number of those souls could have died by very hot fire, bombs, etc. And as they are TALKING in heaven, any number of them experienced a TOTAL destruction of their bodies. But so what? At the resurrection of believers, God will miraculously put ALL the atoms and molecules back together and make an immortal body for the believer to live in forever.

[QIUOTE] Tell me what is left. Reveal yourself.[/QUOTE]
Don't be so dramatic. What's left when a person dies is a dead body, and the soul has "left the building".

If you have a problem with Jesus I can guarantee God will have a problem with you.

What a dumb comment. She had shown NO problems at all "with Jesus". She does have a problem with claiming that souls will cease to exist, just as I do.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Runningman said:
Utterly destroyed means cease to exist.

It really does not.

"Cease to exist" is the nature/type of the destruction >>>> which you are adding to the meaning of the words.

This is so obvious, baffling how indoctrinated you are that you cannot see the assumption you are adding to the various texts.

The poster is very obviously driven by his intense and extreme emotions, which I have called maudlin sentimentality.

Since he believes that ECT is CRUEL, he is guilty of projection, whereby he assumes that since he is highly offended by ECT, that God would naturally have the same emotions as he does, and therefore, ECT cannot be real.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Annihilate means utterly destroy. Perish means utterly destroy. It’s clear there’s nothing of that thing or person left, at least nothing recognizable.

How in the world can you NOT SEE that this about the body?? When you speak of what is no longer RECOGNIZABLE, you ARE describing the body. So thanks once again for refuting annihilation of the soul.

You can't see the soul. It is immaterial. Therefore, what is recognizable or not is IRRELEVANT to this discussion.

Are you splitting hairs and wanting to argue there are still atoms and molecules left over? Be my guest, but the entire person, body soul and spirit, has been wiped out of existence.

Thank you for your opinion.

The Bible proves it.

And yet, you haven't. Go figure.

However, I’m baffled you cherry picked that single sentence out of my comment then ignored the rest. Aren’t you adding eternal conscious torment for all of the unsaved to the Bible? We all know there just isn’t a single verse to support that.

We have Rev 20:10-15 that DOES prove it.

p.s.- I’m not indoctrinated. No one sat down with me and told me to believe this. I simply read the Bible on my own and came to this truth. Which denomination indoctrinated you?

And driven by your extreme emotions, thinking that ECT is CRUEL, and certainly God can't be THAT cruel.

It's called projection. Or transference.

 

[Runningman]

It actually does not, cause annihilate and "utterly destroy" are not synonymous.

So obvious, a house can be utterly destroyed by a tornado but it still exists, what you are promoting is non existence, not the same at all.

So obviously you’re wrong. The he word perish means the same thing as annihilate. Don’t just make things up because I do always come prepared with sources if necessary.

Annihilate - (Source Merriam-Webster)
to cause to cease to exist : to do away with entirely so that nothing remains

Annihilate - (Source Cambridge Dictionary)
to destroy something completely so that nothing is left:

Annihilate - (Source Oxford Dictionary)
to destroy somebody/something/yourself completely

Perish G622 - (Source Strong’s Concordance)
apollumi
Strong's Concordance

apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly
Original Word: ἀπόλλυμι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apollumi
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol'-loo-mee)
Definition: to destroy, destroy utterly
Usage: (a) I kill, destroy, (b) I lose, mid: I am perishing (the resultant death being viewed as certain).​

 

[Runningman]

FreeGrace2 said:
This is a total lie, which you are so quick to do. Prove your phony claim by quoting me saying that and citing the post #.

I'm not Magenta


A very TRUE statement, and you haven't proven the contrary.


You guys just keep repeating your mantras over and over, but without out ANY PROOF that God WILL eliminate souls.


A very true statement. One that you have NOT refuted with any evidence. Only your opinions, and, oh yeah, your sentiments.


If your soul no longer exists, then there are NO FEELINGS at all, whether FEAR or joy. Why can't you get that?


Not. But go ahead and quote whatever verse you think does. It's always interesting to see how your mind runs.


No, I am FACTUALLY pointing out that words have meaning. And "can/able to" NEVER means "will". Not ever.


And you quoted 2 other posters who are on YOUR side. You really did a bang up job, I gotta say.

I quoted other posters to show context and the majority of people you’re talking to are people you’re arguing with.