And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil

[Gojira]

Having been all over the place in your response, what exactly was your larger point? Please clarify.

No, not the word doubt. The fact that you said they were mine. They are not mine.

That you honed in on that word and not anything else was my point. But, when I say "doubt", I'm referring to your challenge of conventional Christian thought. Your "doubts" or disbelief in a certain Biblical notion are similar to mine. Though largely I am disagreeing with the idea that the rebellious are destroyed in a one-time event, I understand to some extent why people have questioned this. I'm not projecting so much as I am understanding your doubt about, disbelief in, whatever.

Because I've so often heard people refer to the "real" meanings of the ancient words comprising Scripture -- and this seems to be a major point in this thread -- I was speaking to that. I'm going with the conventional wisdom on the meaning of "eternity" and the judgment of those who cling to their rebellion because a) I do not know with any kind of authority Aramaic or Greek or Hebrew, and b) at times these kinds of language studies have been used to pervert the meaning of Scripture, even to the point of calling sin non-sin.

So, when someone says -- not sure if you did specifically, but someone here did say -- that the ancient language really means something different than the great majority of Christian thinkers have put forth, I'm inclined to doubt such claims and stick to the general opinion of Christendom.

But, in the end, is it a core issue? I don't think so. Secondly, does it ultimately make a difference? I mean, does anyone want to be burned up in one fell swoop? Does anyone want to have their self-awareness maintained while experiencing torture for the next 2 trillion years and beyond? I find neither prospect appealing. I'm sure you do too.

I don't know if this clears things up. If it doesn't, I'm sorry.

 

[Gojira]

I no longer try to rationalize God’s omniscience. Isaiah 55:9&11: For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts higher than you thoughts.”

Boy if that ain't the truth.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Death is an eternal punishment.

By that, you really mean death of soul. But you have not and cannot explain how there is actual punishment when the soul is not there.

Once the punishment has been completed it’s forever irreversible.

So what? If the soul doesn't exist, it CANNOT be punished.

Hint: there is NOTHING THERE to punish.

An additional punishment cannot be applied to them after death.

you make claims that you cannot prove from Scripture.

I use the Berean Bible Study Method for knowing truth. "they searched the Scriptures daily TO SEE IF WHAT RUNNINMAN SAID IS TRUE."

The word punishment in Matthew 25:46 is a singular noun. So there is only one punishment and it’s death.

Do you deny that all unbelievers will be resurrected?

Let’s be clear, this does not say “punishing” which is an adjective and that would mean the punishment is open-ended

The word "eternal" refutes your notions. Just admit it.

and would never need to end since the person(s) being referred to would always be in state of having eternal punishing applied to them.

Your own words even refute your claims.

Explain how punishing can be "applied to them" if the no longer exist. That is your problem completely.

We also must consider the body of Bible verses where there’s no references to or examples of all unbelievers in eternal conscious torment.

Well, there are, but you just glibly ignore them. Rev 20:10-15 is clear enough. Matt 25:46 is very clear. The punishment is eternal, ongoing. So don't give me that jazz about a soul that doesn't exist continues to be punished. That is a fantasy.

I believe there are over two dozen verses relating to the fate of the wicked as being destroyed or put to death.

If you understand context and how the word "death/destroyed" is being used, there is no problem understanding.

 

[Runningman]

By that, you really mean death of soul. But you have not and cannot explain how there is actual punishment when the soul is not there.


So what? If the soul doesn't exist, it CANNOT be punished.

Hint: there is NOTHING THERE to punish.


you make claims that you cannot prove from Scripture.

I use the Berean Bible Study Method for knowing truth. "they searched the Scriptures daily TO SEE IF WHAT RUNNINMAN SAID IS TRUE."


Do you deny that all unbelievers will be resurrected?


The word "eternal" refutes your notions. Just admit it.


Your own words even refute your claims.

Explain how punishing can be "applied to them" if the no longer exist. That is your problem completely.


Well, there are, but you just glibly ignore them. Rev 20:10-15 is clear enough. Matt 25:46 is very clear. The punishment is eternal, ongoing. So don't give me that jazz about a soul that doesn't exist continues to be punished. That is a fantasy.


If you understand context and how the word "death/destroyed" is being used, there is no problem understanding.

You just like to argue. I think everyone on this forum has seen that and has probably experienced it many times.

You’ve been informed about the truth of the matter. Reject it if you wish and continue living in your fantasy world.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
By that, you really mean death of soul. But you have not and cannot explain how there is actual punishment when the soul is not there.

So what? If the soul doesn't exist, it CANNOT be punished.

Hint: there is NOTHING THERE to punish.

you make claims that you cannot prove from Scripture.

I use the Berean Bible Study Method for knowing truth. "they searched the Scriptures daily TO SEE IF WHAT RUNNINMAN SAID IS TRUE."

Do you deny that all unbelievers will be resurrected?

The word "eternal" refutes your notions. Just admit it.

Your own words even refute your claims.

Explain how punishing can be "applied to them" if the no longer exist. That is your problem completely.

Well, there are, but you just glibly ignore them. Rev 20:10-15 is clear enough. Matt 25:46 is very clear. The punishment is eternal, ongoing. So don't give me that jazz about a soul that doesn't exist continues to be punished. That is a fantasy.

If you understand context and how the word "death/destroyed" is being used, there is no problem understanding.

You just like to argue.

No, I like to defend TRUTH against false doctrines. Your claim that a non-existent person can be punished is ludicrous.

Punishment requires experience. The person has to BE PRESENT.

PQUOTE]You’ve been informed about the truth of the matter.[/QUOTE]
Quite the opposite, actually. You have to PRESUME the rest of the unbelievers iin Rev 20:11-15 won't experience what the beast, FP and the devil will experience when they are cast into the LOF. Re 20:10

Your presumptions certainly aren't facts.

Reject it if you wish and continue living in your fantasy world.

lol. Thinking punishment can be inflicted on someone who no longer exists is what is the real fantasy here.

 

[Adstar]

Rev 20:10 tells us

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The false doctrine that there is no eternal torment in the Lake of Fire for unsaved human beings is a false one that some people want so desperatly to believe in.. But the Word of God makes it clear even in the verse i have quoted that The beast and the false prophet are going to be in torment forever and ever in the Lake of Fire.. Now the beast and the false prophet are both men.. If you read Revelation chapter 19 and 20 you will see that both the Beast and the false Prophet where cast into the lake of fire before the 1000 year reign of the LORD Jesus on earth and that when the Devil is cast into the lake of fire it says that after those 1000 years the beast and the false prophet are still there in the Lake of Fire.. They have not been destroyed after 1000 years.. We read..

The beast and the False Prophet go into the Lake first..

(Revelation 19:20) "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."

After 1000 years the devil is then cast into the Lake of Fire..
(Revelation 20:7-10) "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, {8} And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. {9} And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. {10} And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

So please Saints don't have your ears tickled by false doctrine..

 

[FreeGrace2]

It is important to also point out that the un-biblical doctrine of soul annihilation isn't too far off from what atheists believe.

They do not believe in the afterlife at all. So, at physical death, they believe they will simply cease to exist. So they aren't concerned by death for that reason.

The only real difference between the Christian's soul annihilation and atheists is that unbelievers WILL be tormented from the time of their physical death until the GWT judgment. That means some have been in the holding tank in Hades for 6,000 years already, in torment. Those who die at the battle of Gog and Magog, which will be ALL the living unbelievers on earth, will have only a very short time between their death and the GWT judgment. So almost no torment, certainly, compared to those from Adam's day.

All in all, there are no verses that say that souls will be annihilated. And Rev 20:10 proves that souls WILL BE tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Clear as day.

 

[Runningman]

In order to sustain the doctrine of eternal torment it must be demonstrated using the Bible that the immortality of the soul is unconditional. Jesus, the apostles, and everyone else in the New Testament repeatedly told us that only those who believe in Christ can receive immortality. Those in the Old Testament said only the righteous will live forever.

Furthermore, the Bible states that only God Himself is immortal, meaning that if you want immortality too then that’s dependent upon His gift of soul salvation.

The Old Testament and New Testament repeatedly preached to those who would listen that the fate of the wicked is death and destruction.

Genesis 2:17
17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Ezekiel 18:20
20The soul that sinneth, it shall die…

Matthew 10:28
28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Romans 6:28
23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Let us conclude by noting that the only person in the Bible who ever contradicted God, the prophets, Jesus of Nazareth, and the apostles and said death isn’t possible was the serpent, Satan, the very devil himself:

Genesis 3:3,4
3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

 

[PennEd]

It is virtually impossible for us to imagine infinity. Time is a dimension. Eternity is not just something with a LOT of time, it is outside of time. So God inhabiting eternity means HE is outside of time.

So the lost's eternal death is a permanent state of being or consciousness. "Frozen" in that state of torment forever. They are NOT "living". They are in an eternal state of death. And we simply have no capacity to understand what that would be like. Nor would we want to.

 

[FreeGrace2]

In order to sustain the doctrine of eternal torment it must be demonstrated using the Bible that the immortality of the soul is unconditional.

"sustain" the doctrine"? Huh? The doctrine is clearly communicated in Matt 25:46 and Rev 20:10. And those verses demonstrate that the soul IS immortal. The physical body obviously dies again when the unbeliever is cast into the LOF. And it is the soul that will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Jesus, the apostles, and everyone else in the New Testament repeatedly told us that only those who believe in Christ can receive immortality. Those in the Old Testament said only the righteous will live forever.

These are statements without any evidence. Please include the verses that you are thinking of or referring to.

Furthermore, the Bible states that only God Himself is immortal, meaning that if you want immortality too then that’s dependent upon His gift of soul salvation.

It is God's Word that tells us that people will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Not difficult to figure out.

The Old Testament and New Testament repeatedly preached to those who would listen that the fate of the wicked is death and destruction.

If you had EVEN JUST ONE verse that plainly says the soul will be dead/destroyed, you would have a point. But you don't.

Genesis 2:17
17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

The literal Hebrew reads "in the day that you eat of it dying, you shall surely die". There are 2 deaths mentioned in the original.

The first, "dying", refers to physical death. It is obvious that Adam and the woman didn't fall dead when they ate the fruit. But "on that day" something sure did die. They human spirit. They became spiritually dead "on that day".

That is why humans need to be born again or regenerated. They need a human spirit with which to worship God. As Jesus told the woman at the well in John 4:24.

Ezekiel 18:20
20The soul that sinneth, it shall die…

The word "soul" was commonly used to describe the whole person. This verse is noting physical death via capital punishment.

Matthew 10:28
28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

I will point out again that of course God is ABLE to destroy the soul. But show me where He has or will do that. You can't.

Romans 6:28
23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Ask Adam. His human spirit died "on that day". His body died some 900 years later.

Let us conclude by noting that the only person in the Bible who ever contradicted God, the prophets, Jesus of Nazareth, and the apostles and said death isn’t possible was the serpent, Satan, the very devil himself:

Genesis 3:3,4
3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Please quote the verse correctly. The devil didn't say "death isn't possible". He did say that eating the fruit would not lead to death.

None of these verses are as clear as Matt 25:46 and Rev 20:10. Souls will be tormented for ever.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It is virtually impossible for us to imagine infinity. Time is a dimension. Eternity is not just something with a LOT of time, it is outside of time. So God inhabiting eternity means HE is outside of time.

So the lost's eternal death is a permanent state of being or consciousness. "Frozen" in that state of torment forever. They are NOT "living". They are in an eternal state of death. And we simply have no capacity to understand what that would be like. Nor would we want to.

Well said. James defines "death" as a separation in 2:26. He was referring to physical death, when the soul/spirit leaves the body.

The same is true of spiritual death. In this case, the soul is separated from God for eternity. In torment.

 

[Runningman]

James 4:12
"God alone, who gave the law, is the Judge. He alone has the power to save or to destroy."

Hebrews 10:39
"But we are not like those who turn away from God to their own destruction..."

Philippians 3:18-19
"For I have told you often before, and I say it again with tears in my eyes, that there are many whose conduct shows they are really enemies of the cross of Christ.
19 They are headed for destruction."

Psalm 92:7
"Though the wicked sprout like weeds and evildoers flourish they will be destroyed forever."

Psalm 37:20
"But the wicked will die... they will disappear like smoke."

Psalm 1:6:
"... For the Lord watches over the path of the godly, but the path of the wicked leads to destruction."

Hebrews 10:26-27
"There is only the terrible expectation of God's judgment and the raging fire that will consume his enemies."

2 Peter 3:7
"...for the day of judgment, when ungodly people will be destroyed."

Romans 2:7
"He will give eternal life to those who keep on doing good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers."

Genesis 3:19
"For you were made from dust, and to dust you will return."

Psalm 146:4
"When they breathe their last, they return to the earth, and all their plans die with them."

Ecclesiastes 9:5
"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul who sins is the one who will die.

2 Chronicles 28:3
"He burned incense in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, and burned his children in the fire, according to the abominations of the nations whom the Lord had cast out before the children of Israel." (the Valley of Ben Hinnom is where the concept of Gehenna or Hell comes from)

Jeremiah 19:5
"They have built pagan shrines to Baal, and there they burn their sons as sacrifices to Baal. I have never commanded such a horrible deed; it never even crossed My mind to command such a thing!"

Malachi 4:1, 4:3 "The day of judgment is coming, burning like a furnace. On that day the arrogant and the wicked will be burned up like straw. They will be consumed—roots, branches, and all... On the day when I act, you will tread upon the wicked as if they were dust under your feet," says the Lord of Heaven's Armies."

Matthew 10:28
"And fear not them which kill the body but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life."

John 6:51
"I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Anyone who eats this bread will live forever" (the offer to live forever only makes sense if it were possible to not live forever.)

2 Thessalonians 1:9
"They will be punished with eternal destruction,forever separated from the Lord and from his glorious power."

Romans 6:23
"For the wages of sin is death."

2 Peter 2:6
"and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, having made them an example unto those that should live ungodly"

Revelation 20:14-15
"And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire. And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire."

 

[FreeGrace2]

James 4:12
"God alone, who gave the law, is the Judge. He alone has the power to save or to destroy."

Hebrews 10:39
"But we are not like those who turn away from God to their own destruction..."

Philippians 3:18-19
"For I have told you often before, and I say it again with tears in my eyes, that there are many whose conduct shows they are really enemies of the cross of Christ.
19 They are headed for destruction."

Psalm 92:7
"Though the wicked sprout like weeds and evildoers flourish they will be destroyed forever."

Psalm 37:20
"But the wicked will die... they will disappear like smoke."

Psalm 1:6:
"... For the Lord watches over the path of the godly, but the path of the wicked leads to destruction."

Hebrews 10:26-27
"There is only the terrible expectation of God's judgment and the raging fire that will consume his enemies."

2 Peter 3:7
"...for the day of judgment, when ungodly people will be destroyed."

Romans 2:7
"He will give eternal life to those who keep on doing good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers."

Genesis 3:19
"For you were made from dust, and to dust you will return."

Psalm 146:4
"When they breathe their last, they return to the earth, and all their plans die with them."

Ecclesiastes 9:5
"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul who sins is the one who will die.

2 Chronicles 28:3
"He burned incense in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, and burned his children in the fire, according to the abominations of the nations whom the Lord had cast out before the children of Israel." (the Valley of Ben Hinnom is where the concept of Gehenna or Hell comes from)

Jeremiah 19:5
"They have built pagan shrines to Baal, and there they burn their sons as sacrifices to Baal. I have never commanded such a horrible deed; it never even crossed My mind to command such a thing!"

Malachi 4:1, 4:3 "The day of judgment is coming, burning like a furnace. On that day the arrogant and the wicked will be burned up like straw. They will be consumed—roots, branches, and all... On the day when I act, you will tread upon the wicked as if they were dust under your feet," says the Lord of Heaven's Armies."

Matthew 10:28
"And fear not them which kill the body but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life."

John 6:51
"I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Anyone who eats this bread will live forever" (the offer to live forever only makes sense if it were possible to not live forever.)

2 Thessalonians 1:9
"They will be punished with eternal destruction,forever separated from the Lord and from his glorious power."

Romans 6:23
"For the wages of sin is death."

2 Peter 2:6
"and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, having made them an example unto those that should live ungodly"

None of these verses mentions the soul. They refer to physical death.

Revelation 20:14-15
"And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire. And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire."

Since unbelievers will be resurrected, per john 5:28,29 and Acts 24:15, it will be their physical body that will experience a second death.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

James 4:12
"God alone, who gave the law, is the Judge. He alone has the power to save or to destroy."

Hebrews 10:39
"But we are not like those who turn away from God to their own destruction..."

Philippians 3:18-19
"For I have told you often before, and I say it again with tears in my eyes, that there are many whose conduct shows they are really enemies of the cross of Christ.
19 They are headed for destruction."

Psalm 92:7
"Though the wicked sprout like weeds and evildoers flourish they will be destroyed forever."

Psalm 37:20
"But the wicked will die... they will disappear like smoke."

Psalm 1:6:
"... For the Lord watches over the path of the godly, but the path of the wicked leads to destruction."

Hebrews 10:26-27
"There is only the terrible expectation of God's judgment and the raging fire that will consume his enemies."

2 Peter 3:7
"...for the day of judgment, when ungodly people will be destroyed."

Romans 2:7
"He will give eternal life to those who keep on doing good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers."

Genesis 3:19
"For you were made from dust, and to dust you will return."

Psalm 146:4
"When they breathe their last, they return to the earth, and all their plans die with them."

Ecclesiastes 9:5
"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul who sins is the one who will die.

2 Chronicles 28:3
"He burned incense in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, and burned his children in the fire, according to the abominations of the nations whom the Lord had cast out before the children of Israel." (the Valley of Ben Hinnom is where the concept of Gehenna or Hell comes from)

Jeremiah 19:5
"They have built pagan shrines to Baal, and there they burn their sons as sacrifices to Baal. I have never commanded such a horrible deed; it never even crossed My mind to command such a thing!"

Malachi 4:1, 4:3 "The day of judgment is coming, burning like a furnace. On that day the arrogant and the wicked will be burned up like straw. They will be consumed—roots, branches, and all... On the day when I act, you will tread upon the wicked as if they were dust under your feet," says the Lord of Heaven's Armies."

Matthew 10:28
"And fear not them which kill the body but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life."

John 6:51
"I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Anyone who eats this bread will live forever" (the offer to live forever only makes sense if it were possible to not live forever.)

2 Thessalonians 1:9
"They will be punished with eternal destruction,forever separated from the Lord and from his glorious power."

Romans 6:23
"For the wages of sin is death."

2 Peter 2:6
"and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, having made them an example unto those that should live ungodly"

Revelation 20:14-15
"And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire. And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire."

I still don't understand why you think mere cognizance in a spirit realm can be counted as life eternal.

Sometimes, heaps of scripture don't do anything to help understanding.
You seem to have your own definition of eternal life. One I haven't heard of before.

 

[Runningman]

None of these verses mentions the soul. They refer to physical death.

Some mention the soul directly. I recommend you read then again before misrepresenting the Bible. Also, even the righteous die a physical death. These verses talk about the ultimate fate of the unrighteous. Do you say the righteous are destroyed too? Quote me a single verse that says the righteous are destroyed or put to death.

Since unbelievers will be resurrected, per john 5:28,29 and Acts 24:15, it will be their physical body that will experience a second death.

Body and soul per Matthew 10:28.

 

[Thewatchman]

FreeGrace2 said:
By that, you really mean death of soul. But you have not and cannot explain how there is actual punishment when the soul is not there.

So what? If the soul doesn't exist, it CANNOT be punished.

Hint: there is NOTHING THERE to punish.

you make claims that you cannot prove from Scripture.

I use the Berean Bible Study Method for knowing truth. "they searched the Scriptures daily TO SEE IF WHAT RUNNINMAN SAID IS TRUE."

Do you deny that all unbelievers will be resurrected?

The word "eternal" refutes your notions. Just admit it.

Your own words even refute your claims.

Explain how punishing can be "applied to them" if the no longer exist. That is your problem completely.

Well, there are, but you just glibly ignore them. Rev 20:10-15 is clear enough. Matt 25:46 is very clear. The punishment is eternal, ongoing. So don't give me that jazz about a soul that doesn't exist continues to be punished. That is a fantasy.

If you understand context and how the word "death/destroyed" is being used, there is no problem understanding.

No, I like to defend TRUTH against false doctrines. Your claim that a non-existent person can be punished is ludicrous.

Punishment requires experience. The person has to BE PRESENT.

PQUOTE]You’ve been informed about the truth of the matter.

Quite the opposite, actually. You have to PRESUME the rest of the unbelievers iin Rev 20:11-15 won't experience what the beast, FP and the devil will experience when they are cast into the LOF. Re 20:10

Your presumptions certainly aren't facts.


lol. Thinking punishment can be inflicted on someone who no longer exists is what is the real fantasy here. [/QUOTE]
You are right on the money FreeGrace don't let them get to you. I agree with you the only way to study is like the Barren's. How many people go to church every Sunday, Wednesday, . . . like good little sheep get fed weeds and go home unfed unlearned with no idea of how to go to the scriptures (and then it was the old testament) to prove what they were taught was so. Thank about this they were being taught by Paul and Silas. Any out there that are saying your crazy or my church would never feed me weeds go read Acts 17.

 

[Thewatchman]

How many times have we heard 'those who are not saved' will suffer ETERNAL TORMENT in the lake of fire? Would you believe that is NOT WRITTEN anywhere? I remember the first time I found out, I WAS angry, upset, incensed. Even people who know NOTHING else, seem to all know that. I was about to learn yet ANOTHER lesson...that 'meat' is so hard to chew sometimes especially when all you know is milk.


Rev 20:10 tells us

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Hopefully all can agree what we read here is

The Devil has been cast into the lake of fire and brimstone

the lake of fire and brimstone is where the false prophet and the beast were cast.

AND THE DEVIL shall be tormented forever,


Do we know anything else from what is written here? I don't, do you?


When we began to learn the words of God we learned,

Psalm 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

the wicked PERISH, by being consumed, turned into smoke, ascend up and away

No mention of eternal suffering in the lake of fire.

SO WHERE did it come from?

It didn't come from here
Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

IN the presence of the Lamb and the holy angels, WOULD REQUIRE THEY BE WATCHED FOREVER, if indeed they were to NOT BE CONSUMED but again

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.


WE know from the PSALM that the wicked perish BY BEING consumed into smoke. Here AGAIN, we are told THE SMOKE of their torment goes up for ever and ever.

Is there ANY CONSCIOUSNESS IN SMOKE? No.


Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


So we see SPECIFICALLY who 'for ever and ever, day and night' is referring to. If we go past this and APPLY it to souls, IS THAT GODS TRUTH or our own?

I believe it would be our own because when you combine that information with

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.



Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Revelation 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.


I can't find a single verse that states souls themselves will be tormented, just the smoke left from the consuming of them, which ascends up forever.

Have I missed any important SCRIPTURES, anything WRITTEN that changes any of this THAT isn't just conjecture or assumption?

Kleronomos
What do you thank about this.
Who are the two witnesses?

Only God knows that answer. They will be two human beings given great power just before Christ's return to earth.(Revelation 11:3) And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.) If anyone try's to stop them from preaching, or try's to harm them or kill them they have special powers given by God. (Revelation 11:5&6) And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.) This sounds like some of the same the power given to Moses and Elijah. I am not saying that they will be them it sounds like there power. God has never brought back someone 100's or 1000's of years later He use some one from that time, but they were on the Mt. of Transfiguration. Food for thought.

As we read on in Revelation we see there nobble message is a final warning to repent and turn to God. This message brings them into conflict with the religious, government, and the general population of people on earth and they are martyred. There dead bodies will lay in the streets of Jerusalem 31/2 days. They don't want to move them they don't want them to disappear like Jesus did. (Revelation 11:8-10)And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.9And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.10And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.) You want to know when Jesus will return? (You are right no man knows the exact time Jesus will return) This is the beginning of the end I would say within hours. (Revelation 11:11-15) 11And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.12And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.13And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

14The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

The Seventh Trumpet

15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

[Runningman]

You are right on the money FreeGrace don't let them get to you. I agree with you the only way to study is like the Barren's. How many people go to church every Sunday, Wednesday, . . . like good little sheep get fed weeds and go home unfed unlearned with no idea of how to go to the scriptures (and then it was the old testament) to prove what they were taught was so. Thank about this they were being taught by Paul and Silas. Any out there that are saying your crazy or my church would never feed me weeds go read Acts 17.

But isn’t he assuming that just because the devil, beast, and false prophet are tormented forever that everyone else is too? This works both ways.

There’s nothing to support eternal torment for all unsaved in the Bible. I think we all agree on that despite the debating, there just isn’t an equivalent verse to Revelation 20:10 that applies to all unsaved.

 

[Runningman]

I still don't understand why you think mere cognizance in a spirit realm can be counted as life eternal.

Sometimes, heaps of scripture don't do anything to help understanding.
You seem to have your own definition of eternal life. One I haven't heard of before.

I am happy to explain why. Do you see that while physically alive on earth, unsaved people then and now, are spiritually dead in their trespasses and sins?

Ephesians 2:1-5
1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

 

[Jackson123]

Kleronomos
What do you thank about this.
Who are the two witnesses?

Only God knows that answer. They will be two human beings given great power just before Christ's return to earth.(Revelation 11:3) And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.) If anyone try's to stop them from preaching, or try's to harm them or kill them they have special powers given by God. (Revelation 11:5&6) And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.) This sounds like some of the same the power given to Moses and Elijah. I am not saying that they will be them it sounds like there power. God has never brought back someone 100's or 1000's of years later He use some one from that time, but they were on the Mt. of Transfiguration. Food for thought.

As we read on in Revelation we see there nobble message is a final warning to repent and turn to God. This message brings them into conflict with the religious, government, and the general population of people on earth and they are martyred. There dead bodies will lay in the streets of Jerusalem 31/2 days. They don't want to move them they don't want them to disappear like Jesus did. (Revelation 11:8-10)And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.9And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.10And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.) You want to know when Jesus will return? (You are right no man knows the exact time Jesus will return) This is the beginning of the end I would say within hours. (Revelation 11:11-15) 11And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.12And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.13And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

14The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

The Seventh Trumpet

15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Some people on the YouTube say the 2 w come before ac
because the 2 will kill people that blasphemy god so if ac do blasphemy will killed by the 2
it may happen the first half gt