And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil
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There cannot be eternal "effects" IF IF IF the person no longer exists. It's just not possible.
Heb 9:27 says that it is oppointed ONCE for man to die, and then the judgment. So judgment follows physical death.
Matt 25:46 says the unbelievers will suffer "eternal punishment". Can you explain how to punish someone who doesn't exist?
Yep. Matt 25:46. The punishment will be eternal. Never ending.
Your whole argument hangs on punishment needing to be ongoing for it to be considered punishment. That is simply not logical. Perhaps you believe our whole justice system has it wrong, too, with death being the severest from of punishment reserved only for the worst of criminals. Oh, wait. You do not believe death is punishment at all, since once someone is dead the punishment has become null and void. Odd, since death is what God proclaimed would be the consequence of disobedience to Adam and Eve, and this same pronouncement is made throughout Scripture from beginning to end: the wages of sin is death, and the wicked shall be be destroyed. Some say, too, that death is nothing to fear. That also flies in the face of what Scripture explicitly states.
"So the question is what do the words tormented, everlasting, ever and ever mean to God? "
The answer to this is found in the word of God. Torment is how Jesus describes it a place of pain suffering and gnashing of teeth.
Everlasting when God says we must remember God is eternal therefore the place of hell God created for the devil was made to last forever. The contrast is Hell forever or heaven forever both are eternal
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Well, that's pretty much how it works.
The idea of being punished while not existing is not logical. Maybe you could explain how to punish someone who doesn't exist.
You have misunderstood me. Physical death is only punishfor FOR THIS LIFE. When dead, THAT punishment IS over.
Are you aware of what the literal Hebrew actually says? "dying, you shall die". Do know why there are two deaths for Adam and Eve?
Please prove that the verse means annihilation of soul.
Not for believers. Only for unbelievers. And most ARE afraid. But there are those who don't believe in the afterlife, and don't fear death. Boy,, are they surprised when they die.
Huh? Haven't you read what Paul wrote about physical death? Was he afraid of death? Hardly. He looked forward to it.
Here's the bottom line. Is there a verse that says souls will die, cease to exist?
I don’t think God ‘sends’ anyone to 'hell' or eternal damnation. Look at it this way. Suppose I built a resort for the homeless, and all I asked was that on their way in the door they acknowledge and thank me for doing so. “Hey man, I really appreciate you doing this” and you’re in the door. Tell me to kiss off, and you can go sit outside on the curb. Am I really responsible for those who chose to sit outside on the curb?
Too, what is hell? Our universe is made up at the subatomic level with clusters of like charged particles, which science tells us should naturally repel each other. They call the unknown factor that keeps it all from exploding "the strong force". There are several theories as to the source of this ‘strong force’, including God’s claim that He holds it all together. Now, on that theory, God claims He spoke it all into being out of nothingness - while science says out of nothingness, kaboom there it is. Are those really 2 different stories?
And then there’s dark matter/energy. Scientific estimates vary, but they hover around the theory that 90% of what makes up the universe, we can’t see, except for how it affects the things we can see. God says there is another realm that we can’t see, other than how it affects what we can see. And He wants His 10% back. Again, are these really unrelated?
God also says that someday He will speak this universe out of existence. Paul describes that moment, saying the elements will melt with fervent heat (2 Peter 3:7, 10, 12). Think of what results when the atom is split – intense heat and fire.
Now, the interesting thing is, that we don’t see the lake of fire appear until right after this present earth and heavens are de-created. Could it be that the de-creation of our universe creates the lake of fire?
Could it be that for those who loved this world more than Him, God lets them have it in its natural state apart from Him?
Too, what is hell? Our universe is made up at the subatomic level with clusters of like charged particles, which science tells us should naturally repel each other. They call the unknown factor that keeps it all from exploding "the strong force". There are several theories as to the source of this ‘strong force’, including God’s claim that He holds it all together. Now, on that theory, God claims He spoke it all into being out of nothingness - while science says out of nothingness, kaboom there it is. Are those really 2 different stories?
And then there’s dark matter/energy. Scientific estimates vary, but they hover around the theory that 90% of what makes up the universe, we can’t see, except for how it affects the things we can see. God says there is another realm that we can’t see, other than how it affects what we can see. And He wants His 10% back. Again, are these really unrelated?
God also says that someday He will speak this universe out of existence. Paul describes that moment, saying the elements will melt with fervent heat (2 Peter 3:7, 10, 12). Think of what results when the atom is split – intense heat and fire.
Now, the interesting thing is, that we don’t see the lake of fire appear until right after this present earth and heavens are de-created. Could it be that the de-creation of our universe creates the lake of fire?
Could it be that for those who loved this world more than Him, God lets them have it in its natural state apart from Him?
No, it is not. A person is punished even when punishment ends. That is in fact how it works.
Let me give you an example, since you seem blind to the rational logic and sense of what is being said.
You were likely punished for something as a child. Is your punishment for that transgression ongoing to this day, and will you be punished for this forever? According to you, if it is not, you were not punished. According to you, punishment is only valid if it lasts forever after. Even sentencing someone to death and carrying out a death sentence on that person is not punishment in your view. Weird! Somehow, once that person is dead, they have no longer been punished. You change the word from punishment to punishing. You oughtn't. It's not what Scripture says.
Maybe you could explain how punishing someone with a death sentence is not punishment.
Yes, I am. Yet people deny that the second death is the end of man as articulated in Scripture.
HUH??? We are speaking of the fear of death non-believers have.
God alone is immortal. Life ever after is attained by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.
Our God is a Consuming Fire
Let me give you an example, since you seem blind to the rational logic and sense of what is being said.
You were likely punished for something as a child. Is your punishment for that transgression ongoing to this day, and will you be punished for this forever? According to you, if it is not, you were not punished. According to you, punishment is only valid if it lasts forever after. Even sentencing someone to death and carrying out a death sentence on that person is not punishment in your view. Weird! Somehow, once that person is dead, they have no longer been punished. You change the word from punishment to punishing. You oughtn't. It's not what Scripture says.
Maybe you could explain how punishing someone with a death sentence is not punishment.
Yes, I am. Yet people deny that the second death is the end of man as articulated in Scripture.
HUH??? We are speaking of the fear of death non-believers have.
God alone is immortal. Life ever after is attained by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.
Our God is a Consuming Fire
FreeGrace2 said:
Well, that's pretty much how it (punishment) works.
A "fact", you say? Really. Then please share this fact.
Thank you for that.
OK, you are still working on some failed communication of what I said. Yes, I was punished for disobeying my parents as a child. A lot of times. And the punishment ENDED. Your example totally misses any "factual" evidence.
Does punishment hurt? Can it be uncomfortable? Yes x 2. It was designed to be that way. (fact)
When the punishment ents, the hurt/uncomfortableness ends. That's how it works. If you committed a crime that puts you in jail for 1 month (you seem too nice to commit a crime that would require more than 1 month in jail), you would obviously be uncomfortalble, lonely, etc. Very inconvenient, to say the least. Now, when the sentence is up and you are out, you are FREE from all the discomfort, pain, hurt, and inconvenience of being in jail. iow, the punishment has ENDED. That's how it works.
Now, if you were Muslim, your punishment might be having your hand cut off. THEN your punishment would be ongoing. How would you explain that from biblical ideas?
Wow. You keep making all these wild statements that I never made. When the Bible describes the punishment for unbelievers, it is described as being forever. Matt 25:46 and REc 20:10, followed by the rest of the chapter, 11-15.
I'm getting kind of tired by all your misstatements. I never said that.
yeah, it's weird how you repeatedly make these wild statements about what I have said when I never said them.
Physical death is removal from this earth. Capiche? When they die, they are no longer ON earth. Now they are in a different realm and in a different issue altogether. They are in the waiting room or holding cell for God's punishment.
You make the mistake of comparing apples to oranges.
Please tell me how there a difference materially.
OK, I'm going to type R.E.A.L. S.L.O.W. and L.O.U.D. so you can H.E.A.R. M.E. ok? It IS punishment. Got it already?
OK, why are we now talking about other people? This is between you and me. It's not a 3-way. I don't care what other people deny.
The LOF is described as the SECOND DEATH because of the resurrection of the unsaved. What will die AGAIN is their physical body when they enter the LOF.
You didn't make that clear, so I already did. I guess you missed it.
Do you really think I don't know that? btw, speaking of "immortal", how do you understand "imperishable", as Peter used it?
[/QUOTE]
Well, that's pretty much how it (punishment) works.
A "fact", you say? Really. Then please share this fact.
Thank you for that.
OK, you are still working on some failed communication of what I said. Yes, I was punished for disobeying my parents as a child. A lot of times. And the punishment ENDED. Your example totally misses any "factual" evidence.
Does punishment hurt? Can it be uncomfortable? Yes x 2. It was designed to be that way. (fact)
When the punishment ents, the hurt/uncomfortableness ends. That's how it works. If you committed a crime that puts you in jail for 1 month (you seem too nice to commit a crime that would require more than 1 month in jail), you would obviously be uncomfortalble, lonely, etc. Very inconvenient, to say the least. Now, when the sentence is up and you are out, you are FREE from all the discomfort, pain, hurt, and inconvenience of being in jail. iow, the punishment has ENDED. That's how it works.
Now, if you were Muslim, your punishment might be having your hand cut off. THEN your punishment would be ongoing. How would you explain that from biblical ideas?
Wow. You keep making all these wild statements that I never made. When the Bible describes the punishment for unbelievers, it is described as being forever. Matt 25:46 and REc 20:10, followed by the rest of the chapter, 11-15.
I'm getting kind of tired by all your misstatements. I never said that.
yeah, it's weird how you repeatedly make these wild statements about what I have said when I never said them.
Physical death is removal from this earth. Capiche? When they die, they are no longer ON earth. Now they are in a different realm and in a different issue altogether. They are in the waiting room or holding cell for God's punishment.
You make the mistake of comparing apples to oranges.
Please tell me how there a difference materially.
OK, I'm going to type R.E.A.L. S.L.O.W. and L.O.U.D. so you can H.E.A.R. M.E. ok? It IS punishment. Got it already?
OK, why are we now talking about other people? This is between you and me. It's not a 3-way. I don't care what other people deny.
The LOF is described as the SECOND DEATH because of the resurrection of the unsaved. What will die AGAIN is their physical body when they enter the LOF.
You didn't make that clear, so I already did. I guess you missed it.
Do you really think I don't know that? btw, speaking of "immortal", how do you understand "imperishable", as Peter used it?
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Correct. Destroyed forever.
2 Thessalonians 1:9
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
It’s called the second death for a reason. In hell the soul and body can be destroyed. If they’re resurrected from that then killed again that would be a second death.
The immortality of the human soul is conditional upon God’s will. Didn’t you know only God alone is immortal?
2 Thessalonians 1:9
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
It’s called the second death for a reason. In hell the soul and body can be destroyed. If they’re resurrected from that then killed again that would be a second death.
The immortality of the human soul is conditional upon God’s will. Didn’t you know only God alone is immortal?
FreeGrace2 said:
What is obvious is that it will be eternal punishment.
Are you not aware that "punishment" includes some form of pain/suffering/discomfort/inconvenience/etc? None of those things will be experienced by someone who is no longer there. Illogical. And you still haven't tried to explain how you see that as logical.
If a person's soul can no longer exist, you are unable to inflict any punishment on that soul. That is impossible. There's NOTHING to feel or experience.
Oooh, ya got me! Not.
olethros: destruction, death
Original Word: ὄλεθρος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: olethros
Phonetic Spelling: (ol'-eth-ros)
Definition: destruction, death
Usage: ruin, doom, destruction, death.
HELPS Word-studies
3639 ólethros (from ollymi/"destroy") – properly, ruination with its full, destructive results (LS). 3639 /ólethros ("ruination") however does notimply "extinction" (annihilation). Rather it emphasizes the consequent loss that goes with the complete "undoing."
Since it is a biblical fact that all unbelievers will be resurrected again, per Acts 24:15, and the LOF is described as the "second death", 2 Thess 1:9 may be teaching that the body will undergo death for eternity.
Again, in order to be "punished", it MUST be experienced. That IS how it works.
From: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/punishment
Definition of punishment
1: the act of punishing
2a: suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution
b: a penalty inflicted on an offender through judicial procedure
3: severe, rough, or disastrous treatment
All of this REQUIRES experiencing, or it ISN'T a punishment. That's what you guys (and gal) are missing. And you can't give an example of a punishment where the person doesn't exist.
Souls that no longer exist do NOT experience anything. They can't be punished because they AREN'T there.
There is absolutely no logic to your position.
No verse supports your claim here. "can be" isn't "shall be". When a person dies, their body goes to the grave, and their soul goes to a compartment in Hades, awaiting the GWT judgment. Before the judgment, their bodies are resurrected and then they are cast into the LOF, where their body DIES again.
It is the body that will be resurrected and killed again. Not the soul.
There are no verses that say the soul will be killed, or will cease to exist. Instead, we have verses that speak of eternal punishment, and being tormented day and night for ever and ever.
I don't believe anyone would argue with this. But so what? God has told us the condition of unbelievers; tormented day and night for ever and ever because of their eternal punishment.
The word "eternal" means TIME unending.
I know the verse. Didn't you know that Peter describes the resurrection bodies of believers to be imperishable?
Can you explain the difference between imperishable and immortal, as far as from the point of receiving the glorified body?
What is obvious is that it will be eternal punishment.
Are you not aware that "punishment" includes some form of pain/suffering/discomfort/inconvenience/etc? None of those things will be experienced by someone who is no longer there. Illogical. And you still haven't tried to explain how you see that as logical.
If a person's soul can no longer exist, you are unable to inflict any punishment on that soul. That is impossible. There's NOTHING to feel or experience.
Oooh, ya got me! Not.
olethros: destruction, death
Original Word: ὄλεθρος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: olethros
Phonetic Spelling: (ol'-eth-ros)
Definition: destruction, death
Usage: ruin, doom, destruction, death.
HELPS Word-studies
3639 ólethros (from ollymi/"destroy") – properly, ruination with its full, destructive results (LS). 3639 /ólethros ("ruination") however does notimply "extinction" (annihilation). Rather it emphasizes the consequent loss that goes with the complete "undoing."
Since it is a biblical fact that all unbelievers will be resurrected again, per Acts 24:15, and the LOF is described as the "second death", 2 Thess 1:9 may be teaching that the body will undergo death for eternity.
Again, in order to be "punished", it MUST be experienced. That IS how it works.
From: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/punishment
Definition of punishment
1: the act of punishing
2a: suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution
b: a penalty inflicted on an offender through judicial procedure
3: severe, rough, or disastrous treatment
All of this REQUIRES experiencing, or it ISN'T a punishment. That's what you guys (and gal) are missing. And you can't give an example of a punishment where the person doesn't exist.
Souls that no longer exist do NOT experience anything. They can't be punished because they AREN'T there.
There is absolutely no logic to your position.
No verse supports your claim here. "can be" isn't "shall be". When a person dies, their body goes to the grave, and their soul goes to a compartment in Hades, awaiting the GWT judgment. Before the judgment, their bodies are resurrected and then they are cast into the LOF, where their body DIES again.
It is the body that will be resurrected and killed again. Not the soul.
There are no verses that say the soul will be killed, or will cease to exist. Instead, we have verses that speak of eternal punishment, and being tormented day and night for ever and ever.
I don't believe anyone would argue with this. But so what? God has told us the condition of unbelievers; tormented day and night for ever and ever because of their eternal punishment.
The word "eternal" means TIME unending.
I know the verse. Didn't you know that Peter describes the resurrection bodies of believers to be imperishable?
Can you explain the difference between imperishable and immortal, as far as from the point of receiving the glorified body?
Death is an eternal punishment. Once the punishment has been completed it’s forever irreversible. An additional punishment cannot be applied to them after death.
The word punishment in Matthew 25:46 is a singular noun. So there is only one punishment and it’s death. Let’s be clear, this does not say “punishing” which is an adjective and that would mean the punishment is open-ended and would never need to end since the person(s) being referred to would always be in state of having eternal punishing applied to them.
I don’t like getting into semantics, but I see it’s necessary for you in this case.
We also must consider the body of Bible verses where there’s no references to or examples of all unbelievers in eternal conscious torment.
I believe there are over two dozen verses relating to the fate of the wicked as being destroyed or put to death.
The word punishment in Matthew 25:46 is a singular noun. So there is only one punishment and it’s death. Let’s be clear, this does not say “punishing” which is an adjective and that would mean the punishment is open-ended and would never need to end since the person(s) being referred to would always be in state of having eternal punishing applied to them.
I don’t like getting into semantics, but I see it’s necessary for you in this case.
We also must consider the body of Bible verses where there’s no references to or examples of all unbelievers in eternal conscious torment.
I believe there are over two dozen verses relating to the fate of the wicked as being destroyed or put to death.
S
I think the point that FreeGrace2 is making (in reply to your earlier assertion) is that if you believe that death is the ultimate punishment, what "effects" of death would be eternal? Once one dies (the ultimate punishment according to you), what effects or consequences would come after death?
God proclaimed that the "wages" of sin is death. This is the physical death to which the other user refers, which is mentioned in Hebrews 9:27: “Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment.”
The judgment which comes “after” one "physically" dies "once" is elaborated on in Rev 20:11-12. It’s referred to as the White Throne Judgment. “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it… And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God… and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.” (Note the “dead” were “judged” although you state death is the ultimate punishment.)
Rev 20:14 talks about a “second death.” Those not found in the book of life do not “physically” die a second time, but after physical death and judgment, they will be cast into the lake of fire (i.e. hell).
The casting into the lake of fire aka the second death is the "punishment" after the physical death and judgment. And, “Scripture explicitly states” in Matthew 25:41&46 that this punishment will be eternal. “Then he will say to those on his left… you are cursed into the eternal fire… Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
I understand the above may not be logical to you. I no longer try to rationalize God’s omniscience. Isaiah 55:9&11: For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts higher than you thoughts.”
God proclaimed that the "wages" of sin is death. This is the physical death to which the other user refers, which is mentioned in Hebrews 9:27: “Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment.”
The judgment which comes “after” one "physically" dies "once" is elaborated on in Rev 20:11-12. It’s referred to as the White Throne Judgment. “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it… And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God… and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.” (Note the “dead” were “judged” although you state death is the ultimate punishment.)
Rev 20:14 talks about a “second death.” Those not found in the book of life do not “physically” die a second time, but after physical death and judgment, they will be cast into the lake of fire (i.e. hell).
The casting into the lake of fire aka the second death is the "punishment" after the physical death and judgment. And, “Scripture explicitly states” in Matthew 25:41&46 that this punishment will be eternal. “Then he will say to those on his left… you are cursed into the eternal fire… Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
I understand the above may not be logical to you. I no longer try to rationalize God’s omniscience. Isaiah 55:9&11: For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts higher than you thoughts.”
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