A golden key to understand the book of Revelations

[Evmur]

I hate to be a stickler for detail, but technically the word ekklēsia (commonly translated "church") isn't mentioned after chapter 3 until chapter 22, not chapter 4. How do we know Revelation 4 is a type of the rapture? The word "church" is nowhere to be found.

Neither does the word ekklēsia appear in the books of Mark, Luke, John, 2 Timothy, Titus, 1 Peter, 2 Peter, 1 John, 2 John, and Jude. Perhaps those books were meant for someone else as well.

but soon after John arrived in heaven he saw the church in heaven. They had come out of great tribulation.

 

[lamad]

no..

It would be nice to have one of John's originals!

 

[Evmur]

My point was, the "great tribulation" written in chapter 7 is NOT "those days" of "great tribulation" Jesus spoke of that will be caused by the Beast and False Prophet. I believe John is referring to general life on earth as a sinner: it is filled with tribulation. I agree, the 70th week is for the Hebrews, not for the church. That is why God's plan is to pull the church out just before He begins the Day of His wrath.

you are entitled to your view

 

[Evmur]

I doubt if you knew the man.

I know their falsity and so do you for you believe them.

 

[ResidentAlien]

but soon after John arrived in heaven he saw the church in heaven. They had come out of great tribulation.

So the church is in Revelation after chapter 3 then?

 

[Evmur]

So the church is in Revelation after chapter 3 then?

I believe I said on earth ... that is what I meant

 

[lamad]

but soon after John arrived in heaven he saw the church in heaven. They had come out of great tribulation.

You have to read that passage carefully.

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

This elder is not telling John HOW they got from earth to heaven: rather, he is telling John how they became a part of this group: they washed their robes in Jesus' blood. That means they got born again. This saint is therefore telling John that life on earth as a sinner is great tribulation. But perhaps it was the added tribulation of all of their lives as sinners together was was the "mega" or great.

I pay very close attention to John's chronology. He does not arrive at the point of the days of GT Jesus spoke of until late in chapter 14. The beheaded will not begin to show up in heaven until chapter 15. In fact, in Chapter 7, John has not yet started the 70th week: he starts the week at the 7th seal, with the 30 minutes of silence.

 

[Jocund]

The church are the spiritual seed of Abraham. the heavenly body, "as numerous as the stars" the Jews are the natural seed or earthly body "as many as the sand for number"

The Jews have promises made to them which are not made to the church.

The church will be gathered to heaven , the Jews will be gathered to their enlarged homeland as promised and they shall inherit the earth. The purpose of the gathering for us and for them is to protect them from God's wrath.

In your view, when Paul became part of the church, did he forfeit his right to the promises?

Are not the promises to Abraham and his seed rightly to Christ and those in Christ? If so, which promises are not inherited by those in Christ? Which promises did Christ not inherit?

The church will be gathered to heaven , the Jews will be gathered to their enlarged homeland as promised and they shall inherit the earth.

I've seen this interpretation in some forms of Rapture theories relative to Rev 20. But in every interation of Jews and the church being separate entities I have never seen evidence to substantiate that segregation. In fact, the opposite is evident in scripture "neither Jew nor Gentile".

Who counts as a Jew? Who counts as the church? What if one is from both groups?

 

[Evmur]

In your view, when Paul became part of the church, did he forfeit his right to the promises?

Are not the promises to Abraham and his seed rightly to Christ and those in Christ? If so, which promises are not inherited by those in Christ? Which promises did Christ not inherit?



I've seen this interpretation in some forms of Rapture theories relative to Rev 20. But in every interation of Jews and the church being separate entities I have never seen evidence to substantiate that segregation. In fact, the opposite is evident in scripture "neither Jew nor Gentile".

Who counts as a Jew? Who counts as the church? What if one is from both groups?

The Jews count as Jews. The church is NEITHER Jew or Gentile.

The church is not promised the earth for an inheritance that is promised to Abraham and his seed from his loins ... but Abraham did not receive the promised inheritance but by believing showed he was looking for a better, a heavenly, home. Abraham was church.

 

[Evmur]

You have to read that passage carefully.

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

This elder is not telling John HOW they got from earth to heaven: rather, he is telling John how they became a part of this group: they washed their robes in Jesus' blood. That means they got born again. This saint is therefore telling John that life on earth as a sinner is great tribulation. But perhaps it was the added tribulation of all of their lives as sinners together was was the "mega" or great.

I pay very close attention to John's chronology. He does not arrive at the point of the days of GT Jesus spoke of until late in chapter 14. The beheaded will not begin to show up in heaven until chapter 15. In fact, in Chapter 7, John has not yet started the 70th week: he starts the week at the 7th seal, with the 30 minutes of silence.

I read a great deal differently to you.

 

[ResidentAlien]

I believe I said on earth ... that is what I meant

I don't get it. We have the "rapture" in chapter 4. Then we have another "rapture" in chapter 7. None of this makes any sense; but apparently it isn't intended to make sense, for the church will be gone by chapter 4 and we don't need to understand it.

 

[lamad]

There is one coming to gather the saints Jesus said "after the tribulation of those days"

2 Thess is written to clarify what Paul had written in 1. Thess so it is the same event

Certainly Paul's second letter was to clarify the first and was about the rapture. However, his second letter is probably what Peter was referencing when he said Paul's letters were difficult!
Many people read over this passage and miss things:
Did you notice that in 3b the man of sin IS revealed?

Did you notice that in verses 6-8 the man of sin cannot be revealed until the power restraining him, and preventing that revealing before the proper time will have been "taken out of the way?"

Since he IS revealed in 3b, then the power restraining or holding back that revealing MUST have been "taken out of the way" in verse 3a. And the ONLY part of 3a that fits is hidden in Paul's use of "apostasia."

Then we have another puzzle: why did Paul write in verse 6: "and now you know" who or what that restraining power is. I Wonder, do YOU know?

Then we must be careful to understand the times: when John gets to chapter 19, after the marriage and supper, and gets on His white horse, WHO is left in heaven? It is written that He will come WITH His saints. In fact, He comes with ALL His saints:

1 Thessalonians 3:13
To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

The word "all" is found in every Greek text. Just that one word defeats a posttrib rapture. You see, according to Posttrib, at the time He leaves heaven, the rapture is future.

I believe when He leaves heaven, He will leave heaven empty of saints; the pretrib raptured saints will be with Him; the Old Testament saints who will be caught up "on the last day" or at the 7th vial that ends the week will be with Him. The Two Witnesses will be With Him and finally, all the beheaded will be with Him: All the righteous EXCEPT those left in natural bodies on earth will be coming WITH Him.

So WHO IS IT that is left of the elect to gather? It is only the remnant of the Hebrews left alive in the nations of the world. Jesus will send out angels to gather ALL of "Jacob" back to Israel has He has promised them.

I find a pretrib rapture fits this scenario John writes for us much better than a posttrib rapture. Verse after verse after verse gets in the way when I think of a posttrib rapture.

 

[Yahshua]

This usage of Lord's Day who many refer to first day of the week was not used anywhere else to refer to first day of the week. There are eight scriptures which refer to Sunday and written "first day of the week".

Meanwhile, scripture directly says Messiah is Lord of the Sabbath and that the sabbath is called the Almighty's Holy day.

Mark 2:27-28
27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath


Isaiah 58:13
13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

 

[lamad]

I read a great deal differently to you.

Many people do. But HOW do they answer the questions:
HOW did the man of sin get revealed in 3b?
WHY did Paul write, "and now you know..." as if He had just told them.

Then whatever conclusion one comes to on this passage in his second letter, it must agree with his first letter: rapture before wrath and before the Day of the Lord.

 

[lamad]

I don't get it. We have the "rapture" in chapter 4. Then we have another "rapture" in chapter 7. None of this makes any sense; but apparently it isn't intended to make sense, for the church will be gone by chapter 4 and we don't need to understand it.

It is a myth that Paul's rapture is hidden in Rev. 4:1.

When John's chronology is understood, the church has been waiting at the 5th seal since the beginning, waiting for that final church age martyr.

Most people miss the message of chapters 4 & 5 that set the context of the first seal, meaning the TIMING of that first seal. In short, John saw the moment Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down, in chapter 5, showing us that the first seal was opened around 32 AD. That first seal is to represent the church sent out with the gospel.

Seals 2-4 are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel. God limited the devil to 1/4 of the earth in his attempts to stop the advance of the gospel - to hold it within that one fourth. God has allowed Satan to use wars, famines, pestilences and wild beasts to stop the church. In retrospect, nothing worked: the gospel blew through that 1/4 because the gates of hell cannot stop the gospel. It is everywhere now.

However, Satan as the God of this world, was not just going to step aside and allow the gospel to advance. People DIED as martyrs taking the gospel to new areas.

Without a doubt, Jesus also opened the 5th seal for the martyrs of the church age soon after the first 4 seals were opened. The martyrs cried out asking how long before God would bring judgment. They were told they must wait for the final martyr to be killed as they were - as church age martyrs.

John's next event is the start of the Day of the Lord or the Day of His wrath at the 6th seal. That event is still future to us today. What will make a certain martyr the FINAL martyr of the church age? It will be the pretrib rapture that ENDS the church age and triggers the start of the Day of the Lord.

 

[Evmur]

Certainly Paul's second letter was to clarify the first and was about the rapture. However, his second letter is probably what Peter was referencing when he said Paul's letters were difficult!
Many people read over this passage and miss things:
Did you notice that in 3b the man of sin IS revealed?

Did you notice that in verses 6-8 the man of sin cannot be revealed until the power restraining him, and preventing that revealing before the proper time will have been "taken out of the way?"

Since he IS revealed in 3b, then the power restraining or holding back that revealing MUST have been "taken out of the way" in verse 3a. And the ONLY part of 3a that fits is hidden in Paul's use of "apostasia."

Then we have another puzzle: why did Paul write in verse 6: "and now you know" who or what that restraining power is. I Wonder, do YOU know?

Then we must be careful to understand the times: when John gets to chapter 19, after the marriage and supper, and gets on His white horse, WHO is left in heaven? It is written that He will come WITH His saints. In fact, He comes with ALL His saints:
1 Thessalonians 3:13
To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

The word "all" is found in every Greek text. Just that one word defeats a posttrib rapture. You see, according to Posttrib, at the time He leaves heaven, the rapture is future.

I believe when He leaves heaven, He will leave heaven empty of saints; the pretrib raptured saints will be with Him; the Old Testament saints who will be caught up "on the last day" or at the 7th vial that ends the week will be with Him. The Two Witnesses will be With Him and finally, all the beheaded will be with Him: All the righteous EXCEPT those left in natural bodies on earth will be coming WITH Him.

So WHO IS IT that is left of the elect to gather? It is only the remnant of the Hebrews left alive in the nations of the world. Jesus will send out angels to gather ALL of "Jacob" back to Israel has He has promised them.

I find a pretrib rapture fits this scenario John writes for us much better than a posttrib rapture. Verse after verse after verse gets in the way when I think of a posttrib rapture.

Do YOU know? there is a variety of opinions on who and what is restraining the mystery of iniquity, the working of Satan. the who and the what are connected.

Some of us do not think it is proper to say "the Holy Spirit will be taken out of the way" which is what you believe.

What is the mystery of iniquity and what restrains it? is it not the law? and the custodians of the law are angels and the chief of the angels is Michael. We see in the garden how God set the angel with the flaming sword to guard the tree of life lest man should stretch forth his hand and eat of it. The mystery of iniquity is man's striving for everlasting life ... without repentance.

 

[Jocund]

The Jews count as Jews. The church is NEITHER Jew or Gentile.

The church is not promised the earth for an inheritance that is promised to Abraham and his seed from his loins ... but Abraham did not receive the promised inheritance but by believing showed he was looking for a better, a heavenly, home. Abraham was church.

"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. [...] And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." - Galatians 3:16&29 KJV

The concept you present is not scripturally sound.

 

[Evmur]

God's wrath and tribulation are 2 different things

 

[ResidentAlien]

It is a myth that Paul's rapture is hidden in Rev. 4:1.

That's clear as day to me. As a "type" of the rapture it fails miserably.

1. There's no church, only John; so you have to imagine John is a figure for the whole church.

2. John is "in the spirit," he's not taken bodily into heaven.

3. You have to imagine that the first three chapters figuratively represent all the church ages up until the rapture.

4. You have to imagine that "the things which must be after this" (Rev. 4:1) refers to things that occur after the end of the church age and the rapture.

5. There's no trumpet (1 Thess. 4:16). Revelation 4:1 says the voice was "like" a trumpet but it doesn't say there was a trumpet.

6. It doesn't say the voice was like that of an archangel (1 Thess. 4:16).

7. The Lord doesn't descend (1 Thess. 4:16); there's only a voice coming from heaven.

You have to do a whole lot of wishful thinking to make Revelation 4:1-2 into the rapture. I know it's comforting to people to think they won't have to go through the tribulation. I get that. It's a lot less depressing than the alternative. But I'd rather be depressed for a season and know the truth than deceive myself.

 

[Evmur]

That's clear as day to me. As a "type" of the rapture it fails miserably.

1. There's no church, only John; so you have to imagine John is a figure for the whole church.

2. John is "in the spirit," he's not taken bodily into heaven.

3. You have to imagine that the first three chapters figuratively represent all the church ages up until the rapture.

4. You have to imagine that "the things which must be after this" (Rev. 4:1) refers to things that occur after the end of the church age and the rapture.

5. There's no trumpet (1 Thess. 4:16). Revelation 4:1 says the voice was "like" a trumpet but it doesn't say there was a trumpet.

6. It doesn't say the voice was like that of an archangel (1 Thess. 4:16).

7. The Lord doesn't descend (1 Thess. 4:16); there's only a voice coming from heaven.

You have to do a whole lot of wishful thinking to make Revelation 4:1-2 into the rapture. I know it's comforting to people to think they won't have to go through the tribulation. I get that. It's a lot less depressing than the alternative. But I'd rather be depressed for a season and know the truth than deceive myself.

He was taken in the spirit to the Lord's so there is your rapture ...