Understanding God’s election
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I've already taken my pick. If I ever see reason from His Word to change my thinking, by His Grace I think I'll do so as I have several times in the past.
Your definition of efficacious is similar enough to the one I provided from an online dictionary.
If a man chooses to reject the Gospel of the Grace of God (Acts20:24) this doesn't negate the Gospel's power to save. That's simply not good reasoning or logic. God says His Gospel is His power for salvation to/for all who believe (Rom1:16). Paul and God then dealt with your question in Rom3:3 saying a man's unbelief does not make the faith of/from God (God's words) unproductive/powerless.
It's not a question of who has the power, without question God does, and by His power and sovereignty He's providing His power to those who choose to believe Him. So, I do believe in His Sovereignty and in His Grace being Efficacious, but not in the same way you do, because it being resistible does not negate its efficacy as He's willed to apply it.
Your first paragraph is a fabrication of what your opponents believe. God is the only Savior and, consistent with the above re: Grace and Rom1, He saves those who choose to believe in Him for Salvation.
Your definition of efficacious is similar enough to the one I provided from an online dictionary.
If a man chooses to reject the Gospel of the Grace of God (Acts20:24) this doesn't negate the Gospel's power to save. That's simply not good reasoning or logic. God says His Gospel is His power for salvation to/for all who believe (Rom1:16). Paul and God then dealt with your question in Rom3:3 saying a man's unbelief does not make the faith of/from God (God's words) unproductive/powerless.
It's not a question of who has the power, without question God does, and by His power and sovereignty He's providing His power to those who choose to believe Him. So, I do believe in His Sovereignty and in His Grace being Efficacious, but not in the same way you do, because it being resistible does not negate its efficacy as He's willed to apply it.
Your first paragraph is a fabrication of what your opponents believe. God is the only Savior and, consistent with the above re: Grace and Rom1, He saves those who choose to believe in Him for Salvation.
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What's interesting to me is that it's basically [[ONLY PAUL]] that claims sinful man is unable to seek after God.
If we read the entire Bible we see the Prophets, Jesus, and the Disciples [using the teachings of Jesus] telling us it's possible anyone can seek after God.
So why is Paul different from the rest of the Bible?
These Verses below are just some of about 30 verses saying seek God and you can find Him and they are addressed to both non believers and believers.
Isaiah 55:6-7:
This verse encourages people to "seek the Lord while he may be found" and to "call upon him while he is near."
Matthew 7:7:
In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus promises that those who "seek" will "find."
Jeremiah 29:13:
This verse assures that when people "seek Me with all your heart," they will "find Me."
Acts 17:27:
This verse states that God has designed that people would "seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him."
Hebrews 11:6:
This verse emphasizes the importance of faith in seeking God, stating that "whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him."
If we read the entire Bible we see the Prophets, Jesus, and the Disciples [using the teachings of Jesus] telling us it's possible anyone can seek after God.
So why is Paul different from the rest of the Bible?
These Verses below are just some of about 30 verses saying seek God and you can find Him and they are addressed to both non believers and believers.
Isaiah 55:6-7:
This verse encourages people to "seek the Lord while he may be found" and to "call upon him while he is near."
Matthew 7:7:
In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus promises that those who "seek" will "find."
Jeremiah 29:13:
This verse assures that when people "seek Me with all your heart," they will "find Me."
Acts 17:27:
This verse states that God has designed that people would "seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him."
Hebrews 11:6:
This verse emphasizes the importance of faith in seeking God, stating that "whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him."
You are conflating making choices with free will. All can make choices, but those choices are always according to one's nature...that which is of the flesh is flesh and that which is of the spirit is spirit.
Also, Jesus said we could do nothing apart from Him. Sounds like Jesus wasn't a big free willer either.
Also, Jesus said we could do nothing apart from Him. Sounds like Jesus wasn't a big free willer either.
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Your question brings up more complexities than you may be looking for.
Off the top of my head, if we study things like the Divine Counsel, God at times in Heaven requests input and decisions from His Counsel. So, in such cases it is God's will to solicit thoughts, input, and decisions and choices from His Counsel from which He will agree or disagree. We can see similarity in how God dealt with Abraham re: Sodom.
Apparently in the past He allowed a portion of the angelic realm to choose to rebel against Him. I don't think it was His will for them to rebel, but it was His will to allow them to choose to do so.
So, I'd say that God does act unilaterally and allows reasoning and choices in the Heavenly realm in similar fashion to what He does here.
So, it looks to me like His will in Heaven is not as simplistic as you may be looking for. In the end, though, based at minimum upon this prayer structure from Jesus I'd have to say Heaven where He sits is greatly preferable to the chaos God has allowed here for a time.
Jesus in Matt6:9 actually commands to pray as He states in the following verses. Not all will choose to pray as He commands.
Men's prayers are actually in the form of commands to God, which carries the concept of pleas, deep longings, reverent requests, urgency and desire. It seems Jesus is instructing that the ultimate order in Heaven is what we should deeply desire here and that our wills should be aligned with God's will.
So, God seems to allow and solicit choice in Heaven as He does here. Heaven seems to be maintained ultimately better and even Satan looks to have had to maintain some decorum in the Heavenly courts. Earth has been for some time a sandbox for unruly volitional creatures to play out the evil that God will ultimately rid His creation of.
Off the top of my head, if we study things like the Divine Counsel, God at times in Heaven requests input and decisions from His Counsel. So, in such cases it is God's will to solicit thoughts, input, and decisions and choices from His Counsel from which He will agree or disagree. We can see similarity in how God dealt with Abraham re: Sodom.
Apparently in the past He allowed a portion of the angelic realm to choose to rebel against Him. I don't think it was His will for them to rebel, but it was His will to allow them to choose to do so.
So, I'd say that God does act unilaterally and allows reasoning and choices in the Heavenly realm in similar fashion to what He does here.
So, it looks to me like His will in Heaven is not as simplistic as you may be looking for. In the end, though, based at minimum upon this prayer structure from Jesus I'd have to say Heaven where He sits is greatly preferable to the chaos God has allowed here for a time.
Jesus in Matt6:9 actually commands to pray as He states in the following verses. Not all will choose to pray as He commands.
Men's prayers are actually in the form of commands to God, which carries the concept of pleas, deep longings, reverent requests, urgency and desire. It seems Jesus is instructing that the ultimate order in Heaven is what we should deeply desire here and that our wills should be aligned with God's will.
So, God seems to allow and solicit choice in Heaven as He does here. Heaven seems to be maintained ultimately better and even Satan looks to have had to maintain some decorum in the Heavenly courts. Earth has been for some time a sandbox for unruly volitional creatures to play out the evil that God will ultimately rid His creation of.
Genesis 6:5
Early on, scripture proclaims that there is nothing good in man. His thoughts which originate from the heart are evil continually. If this is true, then man must be given a new heart in order to trust/believe in Christ.
The FWers seem to think that we receive a new heart after coming to faith through our own power/decision. (No help needed). But I believe that this is putting the cart before the horse.
This new heart is freely given to God's elect and it is not something which was desired or ask for. It is a gift freely given by the grace of God and cannot be rejected.
This is the work of the Holy Spirit who draws us to Christ.
Fwers simply have this need to believe they do all things in their own power, and thus attempt to rob God of His glory! This is certainly an incorrect way of thinking, similar to squatting with your spurs on!.
Early on, scripture proclaims that there is nothing good in man. His thoughts which originate from the heart are evil continually. If this is true, then man must be given a new heart in order to trust/believe in Christ.
The FWers seem to think that we receive a new heart after coming to faith through our own power/decision. (No help needed). But I believe that this is putting the cart before the horse.
This new heart is freely given to God's elect and it is not something which was desired or ask for. It is a gift freely given by the grace of God and cannot be rejected.
This is the work of the Holy Spirit who draws us to Christ.
Fwers simply have this need to believe they do all things in their own power, and thus attempt to rob God of His glory! This is certainly an incorrect way of thinking, similar to squatting with your spurs on!.
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If natural man is able to try to find God like the Prophets, Jesus, Disciples claim that doesn't mean natural man can save Himself. Why would natural man be seeking God if natural man could save himself? Wouldn't natural man be seeking God to be saved by God like Acts 17 suggests?
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I look at things in 2 viewpoints.
1. The Prophets, Jesus, Disciples were mostly addressing people like myself, Jews born into families where God is a vital part and structure of the family.
2. Paul seems to be addressing people just the opposite.
I'm so glad my Gospel is from Jesus and not the Gentile Gospel from Paul.
1. The Prophets, Jesus, Disciples were mostly addressing people like myself, Jews born into families where God is a vital part and structure of the family.
2. Paul seems to be addressing people just the opposite.
I'm so glad my Gospel is from Jesus and not the Gentile Gospel from Paul.
So Christians can do nothing apart from Jesus, but unregenerate individuals can?
Your examples are fine, but they don't teach free will. Someone who is a slave to Satan makes choices, but those choices are influenced by him. The Bible teaches that none seek after God. So if someone does seek after God, God must be at work in them. Because a particular passage shows individuals making choices doesn't negate those choices being made according to outside influence. One is either in the flesh or in the spirit. Since unsaved individuals can only walk according to the flesh, they cannot seek for God WITH ALL THEIR HEARTS when their hearts are made of stone. To deny what the Bible teaches concerning the natural fallen man is the cause of much error.
Your examples are fine, but they don't teach free will. Someone who is a slave to Satan makes choices, but those choices are influenced by him. The Bible teaches that none seek after God. So if someone does seek after God, God must be at work in them. Because a particular passage shows individuals making choices doesn't negate those choices being made according to outside influence. One is either in the flesh or in the spirit. Since unsaved individuals can only walk according to the flesh, they cannot seek for God WITH ALL THEIR HEARTS when their hearts are made of stone. To deny what the Bible teaches concerning the natural fallen man is the cause of much error.
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The Perspective from Heaven and God's Law for your consideration re: Rom3:11 seeking God:
- In Rom3:1 Paul begins a section discussing how the Jews have God's words.
- In Rom3:3 Paul deals with Jews in unbelief do not make "the faith of/from God" unproductive/powerless.
- After dealing with some rhetorical questions, in Rom3:9 Paul says all Jews and Greeks are "under sin". If we follow this language in Scripture, it ultimately connects with being under Law which Paul will deal with in part in Rom3:19 and which Law is part of what the Jews have in writing per Rom3:1 and Rom3:3.
- What Paul is doing in Rom3:10-18 is derived from the Psalms, also part of God's words the Jews have that say God looks down from Heaven at a point (see mainly Ps14). Thus, from God's perspective and the same perspective contained in His Law that says if men break one commandment, then they break them all as James3:10 says, this is what God sees. From God's perfect perspective, from the perspective of His perfect Law, He's speaking of the general condition of mankind under sin, under Law. Men should be always and continually seeking God, always and continually be righteous, etc., but they're not.
- This does not preclude the fact that there are men of faith on the earth and always have been since Abel, nor the fact that some men are said to be righteous and blameless in accordance with God's Law and its sacrifices for sin(s) pre-Christ, nor that the several Scriptures you posted speak of men seeking God, nor the fact that Psalm14 from which Paul is in part drawing, is speaking of fools that say there is no God and midway through speaks of God's people. This duality of men is from the Garden on, and it is part of what Paul has been establishing from Rom1:1 through Rom2:29.
- I see this section of Rom3 being the perspective of perfectly righteous and holy God and His holy Law looking at men under sin under Law who can have a form of pre-Christ righteousness in belief in God, seeking Him and living imperfectly under God Law under sin awaiting the Righteousness from God in Christ Jesus, which Paul will get into next, but from the Divine perspective this imperfect condition of man is not His desire, just as sacrifices for sins was not His ultimate will.