They will rip their own hearts out, burrow in with a chainsaw, and pop it back in. Freewillers aren't wimps.
Understanding God’s election
- Thread starter dougcho
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I said Jesus was praying about the Disciples and you disagreed but used a verse that proves my point.
On the contrary, on the Hermeneutics thread we are conducting a systematic study of the doctrine of election with the expressed purpose of including and harmonizing all relevant Scripture supporting both sides, which is lacking here, so if you would like to participate there, please join us.
I just posted this on the website partly inspired by your posts: Human nature was created good but not perfect (Gen. 1:31), and Jesus had a human nature that was perfected during his earthly life (Heb. 5:8-9), which moral perfection should be every Christian’s lifelong goal (Phil. 3:12-15). Humans are born selfish but innocent babies until they attain the stage of moral accountability or conscience (normally about the stage of pre-pubescence), comparable to when Adam and Eve became aware it was wrong to eat from the forbidden tree (Gen. 2:17).
In verse 20 Jesus is praying for THOSE who would believe as a result of the disciples preaching and evangelism.
Huh? Jesus prayed for His Disciples and also for everyone who would believe through them. All true believers (the elect) become His
Disciples.
No, they just reject what Scripture says on the matter of salvation.
In Jesus' words: impossible with man, but possible with God.
In God's Words: according to His mercy and will, not according the desire, effort, or will of man.
I have updated this panel a little. Of course there are so many verses that it is not possible to include them all on one...
With the heart one believes. Free willers say it is with the wicked heart of the natural man.
Proverbs 28 verse 26~ “He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool.” Jeremiah 17 verse 5a~ Cursed is the man who trusts in mankind. Jeremiah 17 verse 9~ The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it? Ecclesiastes 7 verse 20~ “For there is not a just man upon the earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.” Matthew 7 verse 18~ “A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.” John 6 verse 63b~ The flesh profits nothing. Philippians 2 verse 13~ “For it is God which worketh in you, both to will and to do of His good pleasure.”
Hmmm...I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure I saw a couple of freewillers gnawing on their hearts earlier. But you're probably right.No, they just reject what Scripture says on the matter of salvation.
In Jesus' words: impossible with man, but possible with God.
In God's Words: according to His mercy and will, not according the desire, effort, or will of man.
I have updated this panel a little. Of course there are so many verses that it is not possible to include them all on one...
Proverbs 28 verse 26~ “He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool.” Jeremiah 17 verse 5a~ Cursed is the man who trusts in mankind. Jeremiah 17 verse 9~ The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it? Ecclesiastes 7 verse 20~ “For there is not a just man upon the earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.” Matthew 7 verse 18~ “A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.” John 6 verse 63b~ The flesh profits nothing. Philippians 2 verse 13~ “For it is God which worketh in you, both to will and to do of His good pleasure.”
But He prayed that their word would be believed. So He is first and foremost praying about the Disciples.
Paul was wrong
True. They only believe after hearing Disciples or Evangelism, because the Holy Spirit enters and allows them to understand the call to repentance.
You'll hear of those who say they came to repentance as a young child. There was a documentary years ago entitled, Jesus Camp.
Little children shown in all manner of emotion during services held by that camp group.
Were they all God's Elect? No.
No one comes to Jesus unless the father leads them .
Sure,some of those children could be of The Elect. But certain not every last one.
But they could certainly think they were.
Which is why Jesus said,warned,many are called. Few are (the) Chosen.
And as an aside, Jesus was fully human and fully imbued with Holy Spirit,God. He didn't learn to be righteous.
He already prayed for the disciples. He begins v20 by stating that He wasn't just praying for His disciples, but was also praying for others who would believe as a result of their ministry. Those who will be converted as a result of the efforts is the subject of the prayer.
Since no one is getting it due to their inerrant doctrine...the Father gave Yeshua the Disciples to carry on the work began by Yeshua so those who would later hear become believers.
So Yeshua is thanking the Father for giving Him the Disciples.
So Yeshua is thanking the Father for giving Him the Disciples.
Thats right. Repentance and judgment make no sense without real free will and choice.
And postulating that God is the ultimate chooser makes Him the ultimate villain.
The very purpose of Christ's parables was to instruct and enlighten some, and at the same time place a stumbling block in front of others. See Matt 13:10-15. Are we to proclaim that Christ was unfair, or admit that His ways are higher than ours.
We must fully trust His actions, and although we see dimly now, we will rejoice in the truth later!